rabbit starvation

[jonajuna]

as a spin off from a thread elsewhere, im intrigued by the issue of rabbit starvation

now i know that the problem is twofold, the lack of fats being one and the burning off of certain minerals when metabolising the meat being the other

i'm led to believe and have no reason to question it as it makes perfect sense, that the mineral issue can be overcome with a few greens added to the pot, but the fat issue???

tallow candles are often cited as "survival food" as are edible, i've been told that they have no nutritional value however, though never held this to be correct previously

so a quick google got me the following info on its makeup:

Nutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)
Energy 3,774 kJ (902 kcal)
Carbohydrates 0 g
Fat 100 g
saturated 50 g
mono-unsaturated 42 g
polyunsaturated 4 g
Protein 0 g
Cholesterol 109 mg
Selenium 0.2 mg

and its fatty acid contents:

* Saturated fatty acids:
o Palmitic acid: 26 %
o Stearic acid: 14 %
o Myristic acid: 3 %
* Monounsaturated fatty acids:
o Oleic acid: 47 %
o Palmitoleic acid: 3 %
* Polyunsaturated fatty acids:
o Linoleic acid: 3 % (this is an omega 6)
o Linolenic acid: 1 %


both from wiki on tallow

so, my question is, if eating rabbits in a long term situation, and ensuring you have your greens too, would adding tallow to the pot at least mitigate or even negate the lack of fats issue

of course there's the risk of the HUGE amount of Cholesterol LOL

 

[Toddy]

Afaik it's not the nutritional value so much, but that the energy needed to catch the rabbit vs the calorific value that's the issue.

Plenty of food, but it takes so much effort to find, trap, kill, prepare and cook that one can literally starve over time.

This presupposes that one doesn't forage for anything else, right enough.

Folks who go out with an airgun and come back with half a dozen conies make it look easy. What if you had no gun ? no knowledge of the terrain ? no dogs, ferrets, or nets or snares other than those you make from the natural resources around. It becomes a lot harder.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Matt.S]

Furthermore I suspect we have a higher population density of rabbits than would have been encountered on the american frontier; we've spent millenia turning this fertile, temperate, naturally irrigated island into fields of crops, or in other words exactly what rabbits like to eat. And rabbits doing what rabbits do best with a small amount of predators and a lot of food...

 

[HillBill]

Furthermore I suspect we have a higher population density of rabbits than would have been encountered on the american frontier; we've spent millenia turning this fertile, temperate, naturally irrigated island into fields of crops, or in other words exactly what rabbits like to eat. And rabbits doing what rabbits do best with a small amount of predators and a lot of food...

Rabbits have always been abundant since the romans introduced them. It is their nature. Their prolific breeding habits is testomony to the fact that they are food for everything, and they know it. While we may have a lot of rabbits, those rabbits tend to be smaller than ones that inhabit larger land masses. Same reasons dino's got big. One large landmass called pangia no oceans but they did have large inland seas.

So it stands to reason, bigger animal fewer per square mile. So while they may have been harder to catch, you didn't need to catch as much for the same benefit, the balance of nature in all its glory. Rabbits do have fat too, depending on the time of year. Summer/autumn rabbits have fat stored for the winter. Though come spring they wont have. Same as any animal that winters in cold climes.

You dont need to know the land well to snare rabbits either, you just need to know rabbits well. You need to know what to look out for. Snaring is relatively low in energy expenditure, once you have snares that is, require nothing really in terms of preperation, and weigh next to nothing. If you have a dog, even better. Theres a reason why their mans best friend. Food supply, protection, and good company.

 

[andybysea]

Deleted, think my answer has been covered before.

 

[Toddy]

Rabbits are believed to have been introduced by the Romans but they didn't thrive or spread much for some reason.
They were re-introduced by the Normans, who kept them in warrens.
Their fur was considered a luxury item. It took a long time for them to spread throughout the UK.
There are still areas where there are no rabbits, it's not always as easy as it sounds to find them.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[robin wood]

Rabbits are believed to have been introduced by the Romans but they didn't thrive or spread much for some reason.
They were re-introduced by the Normans, who kept them in warrens.
Their fur was considered a luxury item. It took a long time for them to spread throughout the UK.
There are still areas where there are no rabbits, it's not always as easy as it sounds to find them.

cheers,
Toddy

Indeed Toddy during medieval times Rabbits were still effectively only available to the very rich who managed them in private warrens, as highly prized as venison.

I find the idea of someone eating rabbits and greens starving to death just bizarre, how long do you suppose that might take? 3 months? six months? a year? And where are you going to come by tallow candles today? I hope you are not going to be eating paraffin wax candles, they certainly have zero nutritional value liquid paraffin being an excellent laxative.

 

[jonajuna]

the calorific value of rabbit is higher than that of equivilantly lean beef and double that of jacket spuds, so no calories expended vs gained issue, especially as trapping is a low energy activity compared to other means of gaining (meat) protien, trap checking can be undertaken as a sub-activity of wood/plant gathering further negating energy expenditure

the issue of rabbit starvation is clearly documented as being a mineral depletion/fatty acids issue

its the question of overcoming those particular issues im pondering, especially as im living in the 21st century rather than first century britain, so rabbit population isnt an issue, as so prolific as to be classed as vermin and we've waged biological warfare on them

nutritional values of foods can be found here: http://www.elook.org/nutrition/

 

[jonajuna]

Indeed Toddy during medieval times Rabbits were still effectively only available to the very rich who managed them in private warrens, as highly prized as venison.

I find the idea of someone eating rabbits and greens starving to death just bizarre, how long do you suppose that might take? 3 months? six months? a year? And where are you going to come by tallow candles today? I hope you are not going to be eating paraffin wax candles, they certainly have zero nutritional value liquid paraffin being an excellent laxative.

it is a several month issue, around the 6 month mark i believe

want some tallow candles, a google gives these for sale http://www.google.co.uk/products?so...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CB0QrQQwAg

or make your own, its only rendered beef fat, hence the nutritional content

 

[Toddy]

Something wrong with those figures on your first post.
According to them rabbit is of a higher calorific rating than pure lard which has 890 kcal per 100g, or cheddar which has about 430 per 100g.

The issue of rabbit starvation is not relevant here unless they are the only food you are attempting to acquire.

It is an issue with those who do not forage nor gather, and believe they can survive purely by hunting.

The European rabbit (our most common wild one) is not the rabbit of the snowy north. It reproduces prolifically in our temperate climes, it does not when the climate is not suitable. Does are able to reabsorb young in uterus, a useful evolutionary trait in harsh climates.

Dogs are useful creatures, but if it's catching your dinner, what are you going to feed him ?

cheers,
Toddy

 

[jonajuna]

Something wrong with those figures on your first post.
According to them rabbit is of a higher calorific rating than pure lard which has 890 kcal per 100g, or cheddar which has about 430 per 100g.

that first post is staing the nutritional values of tallow aka rendered beef fat

The issue of rabbit starvation is not relevant here unless they are the only food you are attempting to acquire.

its a single topic of discussion within the wider topic of wild foods. please tell me the rules to make topics relevant?

It is an issue with those who do not forage nor gather, and believe they can survive purely by hunting.

no, even with gathered foods such as leaf and roots, the fatty acids is still an issue

The European rabbit (our most common wild one) is not the rabbit of the snowy north. It reproduces prolifically in our temperate climes, it does not when the climate is not suitable. Does are able to reabsorb young in uterus, a useful evolutionary trait in harsh climates.

im not in the snowy north? im missing the point in this part of your reply i guess?

Dogs are useful creatures, but if it's catching your dinner, what are you going to feed him

eh?

cheers,
Toddy

erm, cheers back but it seems you are poopooing everything i have said and asked here

why?

 

[Toddy]

I think we're at opposite ends looking at a topic tbh

My apologies on the tallow calorie mistake though, I thought you were referring to rabbits and couldn't see how on earth they had such a rating.


Rabbit starvation refers to the fact that even though someone can catch rabbits he still starves.
Yes ? No ?

The reason he starves is that despite the fact he's catching rabbits (if indeed there are rabbits to be caught) is that he expends more calories catching them than he gains from eating them.

I think what your suggesting is that rabbit starvation isn't a calorie issue but an unbalanced nutritional one.

However, if someone were starving as the first cause, the latter poor nutritional one really wouldn't matter.

Have I made myself clearer ?

cheers,
Toddy

 

[jonajuna]

very clear cheers

yes wrong ends of the stick, "rabbit starvation" is a term applied to the condition of apparent malnutrition that arises from a primarily rabbit based diet

as i said in first post, you deplete certain minerals from your body in the digestive/metabolic processes of converting rabbit meat into usable nutrition.... the depletion of these minerals will (in time as experienced by several pre/victorian explorers) lead to malnutrition and death dispite appearing/feeling adequately fed

in addition, rabbit lacks several essiential fats

the mineral issue can be overcome by eating (through gathering) green foods.....

the fatty acids issue can be overcome by consuming said fats from other sources, such as fatty meats. oily fish and possible certain nuts/grains......

i was interested in the use (in a rare and non civilised area situation) of tallow, which is a rendered beef fat that can be used to make candles, as a source of those needed fats

its an exploration of the question, i have no intention of finding myself in the situation needing the knowledge, just nice to have the knowledge

 

[HillBill]

Dogs are useful creatures, but if it's catching your dinner, what are you going to feed him ?

cheers,
Toddy

All spoils divided equally, including the ones you may catch yourself. In situations where it matters, a dog is more than a pet or companion, its your ally in survival.

 

[Toddy]

The only two things I have firm opinions on tallow candles are that they smoke abominably when burnt, the soot is almost impossible to wash off painted ceilings and the like, and that mice love them

Eating them, well if you're desperate enough. Folks have eaten leather before now trying to survive.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[robin wood]

I am sure you would do better nutritionally eating a bit of rendered fat with your rabbit, I am sure carrying a load of limes would help too as would picking a few greens. It just seems a bizarre question to ask. Could you post a link to the "well documented" cases of pre Victorian explorers trying to survive on a primarily rabbit diet I had thought the requirements of a balanced diet were worked out long before that.

 

[Toddy]

All spoils divided equally, including the ones you may catch yourself. In situations where it matters, a dog is more than a pet or companion, its your ally in survival.

It's also dinner if you're hungry enough

cheers,
Toddy

 

[robin wood]

All spoils divided equally, including the ones you may catch yourself. In situations where it matters, a dog is more than a pet or companion, its your ally in survival.

And when it really matters he's your dinner.

Woops too late

 

[HillBill]

It's also dinner if you're hungry enough

cheers,
Toddy

Indeed....

 

[HillBill]

Thinking about it, you cant starve to death by just eating rabbit. You may, over a long period develop a deficeincy of certain minerals/fats. but thats not starvation as i see it.

I read about a group of trappers who got caught in their trapping grounds overwiinter, they trapped rabbits for food, and they caught plenty. yet were dead by the thaw. Thing is, they all died. So how do they know what they died of, could have been cold, illness, anything really and i doubt the bodies would have been sent for autopsy back them. Maybe its a myth, maybe not, but my guess it would take a long time.