Question regarding knife carry

[Janne]

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[Janne]

dear forum,

I was in the pub last night and it was my round. I judged on of my friends to be drunk and refused to buy him a beer because of the 2003 Licensing Act.

was this the right thing to do?

I would hate to have handed him his pint just as a policeman walked in the door.

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[artschool]

It would have been bad indeed if you had deepened his intoxication, but as a friend, surely you did?
In case a Police officer came in you could have just said you did not intend to give him the pint, as your plan was to pour it over his head to sober him up.

well Janne, in the UK under the 2003 Licensing Act it is illegal to to buy alcohol for someone who is clearly drunk.

as we all strictly adhere to all laws on this forum I did not buy my friend a drink.

just as I advise the OP not to cross the road with a knife on his belt as that would also technically be against the law.

anyone else heard of other dumb laws that no one bothers with?

 

[Toddy]

The sviveling peeler, an improvement over the Lan. peeler is actually a Swedish design. Called Jonas and it came 1953.

It's not an improvement, it's an annoyance of a thing.
It peels but that's it. The swivel makes it no where near as useful for removing eyes, for coring apples or for slicing like a mandolin, as well as peeling spuds, carrots, neeps and celeriac.

Each to their own though.

M

 

[santaman2000]

Just think about how an officer is going to read you if stopped, with a knife in a pack and you looking like your off to the woods your jacket, boot etc will be of a type best for being out and about in woodland and your knife is carried in a discreet manner, now think of the same situation but a knife on your belt, why would you need it there with such easy of access? and on display, feels more suspicious doesn't it?

Maybe it's a difference in our location, but I'm more suspicious of concealed items (far, far, far more suspicious)

 

[Janne]

It's not an improvement, it's an annoyance of a thing.
It peels but that's it. The swivel makes it no where near as useful for removing eyes, for coring apples or for slicing like a mandolin, as well as peeling spuds, carrots, neeps and celeriac.

Each to their own though.

M

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[santaman2000]

It's not an improvement, it's an annoyance of a thing.
It peels but that's it. The swivel makes it no where near as useful for removing eyes, for coring apples or for slicing like a mandolin, as well as peeling spuds, carrots, neeps and celeriac.

Each to their own though.

M

I use my swiveling one for several of those things. It hasn't been a problem. I don't core apples though; with a peeler or anything else.

 

[Laurentius]

Maybe it's a difference in our location, but I'm more suspicious of concealed items (far, far, far more suspicious)

You have to look at the meaning and purpose behind knife legislation in the UK, which has taken a different path to the USA. The knife is not being concealed, it is being put out of harms way. A knife on a belt or a pocket clip could be easily pulled out in the event of an altercation. Something the urban hooligan will do is carry there knife where they can reach it. If you put it inside a bag, maybe under something else you are demonstrating peaceful intent as well as not attracting attention in the first place.

You know, I am quite at liberty to walk through a dodgy district at night with a flashy mobile phone, the law ensures it is mine, because nobody would dare to break the law to steal it from me
would they? Well in fact I think you would rather keep your phone out of the way in such circumstances regardless of your right to lead a life uninterupted by muggings, as that is simply the sensible thing to do.

 

[Toddy]

It does take some dexterity, I agree....

I did buy a dedicated Apple corer here in Norway as I could not find any back home. For the dried apples. I love chunky pieces of dried apples!

It's not a dexterity issue; it's that the tool is too limited.

M

 

[Toddy]

Laurentius ? that was well put

 

[santaman2000]

.....A friend who works with long term prisoners in an attempt to re-socialise them before release, commented a few years ago that he thinks that long term sentences will rapidly become economically unviable for most crimes, but since our society no longer uses either physical chastisement (the birch, etc.,) and no long accepts capital punishment as having any place in our justice system, that there is nothing to counteract the 'I can do what I want' mentality of those with no moral compass.

Heavy thoughts.

M

Interestingly the long term sentences do seem to work; just not for the reasons many would think. The most recent study I've seen indicates that they work simply because by the time the inmate is released, he or she has aged out of the bracket associated with crime (most crimes are committed by people under 35 years old)

Yes, long term sentences are indeed expensive, and yes, without harsher penalties criminals don't really fear much. It's extremely difficult to discipline an inmate who's already serving a life sentence. He has nothing to lose.

 

[santaman2000]

You have to look at the meaning and purpose behind knife legislation in the UK, which has taken a different path to the USA. The knife is not being concealed, it is being put out of harms way. A knife on a belt or a pocket clip could be easily pulled out in the event of an altercation. Something the urban hooligan will do is carry there knife where they can reach it. If you put it inside a bag, maybe under something else you are demonstrating peaceful intent as well as not attracting attention in the first place.

You know, I am quite at liberty to walk through a dodgy district at night with a flashy mobile phone, the law ensures it is mine, because nobody would dare to break the law to steal it from me
would they? Well in fact I think you would rather keep your phone out of the way in such circumstances regardless of your right to lead a life uninterupted by muggings, as that is simply the sensible thing to do.

I agree with you regarding the wisdom of carrying valuables concealed. I also agree with you regarding the wisdom of keeping the knife concealed. I actually carry my handgun concealed. That said, as a cop, I'm more suspicious of somebody carrying concealed (even though open carry is prohibited here)

All that said, a knife in a rucksack (or a car boot or similar inaccessible place) would raise no suspicions at all; if you can't get it readily, it isn't even legally considered to be "carrying" here. It was just your earlier comment "concealed" that threw me.

 

[snappingturtle]

what walking about at night? They might have convinced you they had reasonable cause and you complied, I would not have I would have kept moving if they had persisted I would have asked what reasonable grounds they had to stop me and request they let me go home.

my point is having a knife on your belt would give them reasonable cause, crossing a road with a bag on you back would not. Yes you would likely be seen as having a good reason and sent on your way, but why would you be arsed to spend your outdoor time proving it to the officer? just for the feeling of freedom?

They gave me good grounds for there stop and search as they must, I went with it because I know what happens next if you don't, you can be evasive and resistant as you suggest give it a try let me know how it go's

 

[snappingturtle]

All that said, a knife in a rucksack (or a car boot or similar inaccessible place) would raise no suspicions at all; if you can't get it readily, it isn't even legally considered to be "carrying" here. It was just your earlier comment "concealed" that threw me.[/QUOTE]

law's differ here but this is what I was trying to impart to the op from an officers view what would be considered, openly displayed or concealed on his person both not his best option, but found about his person in a bag most low key way to carry. The law here has some leeway, grasp that and its meaning and you can work it to your advantage.

 

[Corso]

They gave me good grounds for there stop and search as they must, I went with it because I know what happens next if you don't, you can be evasive and resistant as you suggest give it a try let me know how it go's

have done many times lived and still work in London, stopped quite a few times over the years, only searched once because they pulled the terror card, and I was a bit too inebriated to challenge it It was after all outside Buck house at 2am and I wasn't sure if where I was was considered a high profile area. Funny enough though they stopped half way through when I started asking questions

https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights

I don't resist I just follow their own guidance better than a lot of them do. The police do not have unquestionable rights to search you what ever they might try and convince you.

I think we are basically on the same page, don't give the cause to search you and chances are they wont

 

[Jaeger]

Aye Up,

I encounter the O.P.’s scenario several times per week where I cross a narrow country lane from a rural public footpath into private woodland to which I have legitimate access.

I always have about me a fixed blade knife (a Mora or one that I purchased from a maker on this site); plus a non-locking folder and sometimes either a machete or an axe depending on what maintenance and/or bushcraft practices I might intend/have to carry out that day.

The immediate accessibility to the fixed blade issue and the wisdom of carrying it inside a ruck until needed has been commented on here – sound advice IMO.
My fixed blade and machete/axe are stowed as such.
The sub 3 inch folder (Mauser) is in a pouch on my belt.

Corso has made a ref to the UGov site re police Stop and Search powers which at first reading states that –

‘the police CAN stop and question you at any time’

but it then subsequently states that -

‘you don’t HAVE to stop and answer any questions’

I would suggest that this is poorly structured, almost contradictory wording and the wrong interpretation of it could cause you to get the wrong impression of ‘your rights’ and colour your attitude/response to a police stop unfavorably (to yourself).

The document does go on to state that unless they have other reason to suspect you then you not stopping to answer questions cannot be cause in itself to search or arrest you.
Sounds fair enough.

I would first suggest that it is highly unlikely that a police officer would stop and question you ‘just for the sake of it’ (some might disagree) - but they really do have better things to do. They may want to speak to you simply to gain knowledge of the area - isn't lack of that one of the things we often hear complained about them?

The fact is that you cannot know everything that is going on in an area or what other issues the police might be dealing with in that area and so it is highly possible that they can, easily justify reasonable grounds to stop and question you.

You would be unlikely to know for example (read the Gov doc further) that a senior police officer had sanctioned stop/search without reasonable grounds!

Should you decide that you don't want to stop and engage with the police (most criminals don't!), from that point forward how would you expect them to view you or anything that they find on your person - concealed or not.
And taking it a stage further - why should they believe anything that you say - for example your reasonable grounds for possession of that fixed blade - or your personnel details - name/dob/address etc?

I'm sure that regardless of the potentially varied interpretations of police stop/search and powers of arrest which may be debated here, the best advice that this site can give is to co-operate with the police and we can all then go about our legitimate business that much quicker and easier and perhaps give a good impression of bushcrafters?.

 

[Janne]

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[Jaeger]

Aye Up,

That depends on how you interpret some of the exchanges in the thread Janne.
There is clearly evidence to support my comments regarding the potential for misinterpretation (of police stop/search and powers of arrest) and that is why I have given examples in my last post of how someone might think that you can just 'walk-on-by' but it might not be the wisest thing to do.

If they cannot see a knife they wouldn't even have legal justification to search you

Wrong! Already explained.

Really? I have been stopped and searched just because I was walking home late, if they have reasonable cause then they can with anyone.

It was highly unlikely that he was stopped 'just' because he was walking home late. Again explained in my previous post. SnappingTurtle in fact qualifies it himself.

nope they can't however if you comply they can convince you of anything

'If' you comply - that doesn't sound like a cooperative mindset to me.

what walking about at night? They might have convinced you they had reasonable cause and you complied, I would not have I would have kept moving if they had persisted I would have asked what reasonable grounds they had to stop me and request they let me go home.

Ditto previous example.

my point is having a knife on your belt would give them reasonable cause, crossing a road with a bag on you back would not. Yes you would likely be seen as having a good reason and sent on your way, but why would you be arsed to spend your outdoor time proving it to the officer? just for the feeling of freedom?

'I would not I would have kept walking' etc sounds pretty uncooperative to me.

The bottom line is that a narrow focus discussion of stop/search and powers of arrest and without examples of the potential wider context of why a person might be stopped can lead to misunderstanding.

 

[Corso]

The Police do not own reasonable grounds

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/26/met-police-stop-and-search-data

from 2014

Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) found that 27% of stop andsearches did not contain reasonable grounds for suspicion, meaning more than250,000 of the 1m searches conducted last year could have been illegal.


Sounds to me like just walking home doesn't qualify – asreasonable grouds





I would be interested to read what the documentation they gave you after the search

Said.

 

[snappingturtle]

No paper work corso, It was 2am and I'm all in black, on my way home, (my village is 3 miles out of town) they pulled up, and explained to me someone was seen scoping out property and cars in the area and I fitted the bill, so I thought the faster they deal with me the quicker they can get on and find the real guy, I'm not always in accord with the law's we live under, but most officer have my support so I made it easy for them.