Primitive Living

[rik_uk3]

To say that a cottager has many resources is true but then in most prehistoric societies or "primitive" contemporary ones the present generation, are heirs to many resources as well as knowledge of and rights over hunting runs etc. John Seymour in his Fat of the Land writes of the difficulties of starting a self-sufficient smallholding without even a spade.

As to wartime rations, yes they were there in support and were available if you cared to queue having travelled five miles under your own steam to collect them.

Not everything was rationed but all subject to availability, things like bread, spuds, pasta, fruit, fish (and fish and chips), shellfish and more. standing in line was a ritual but it worked, the population got fed. Many people in cities turned their gardens over to growing veg and some fruit, some kept a chicken or two and even a pig. 'British Restaurants' were set up where a fixed three course menu was available at a set price of 6d, 2.5p.

I doubt anyone, farmer or small holder could not be bothered to travel under their own steam to collect rations, thats a bit of a daft statement boatman IMHO.

 

[Llwyd]

People are under the illusion that they are independent but we are all interconnected in a web that encompasses everything. The days of independent living are over. You can run around in the woods and die at 35 like our ancestors did from abscess teeth and diarrhea wearing animal skins but I want to be around to see a Mars landing and maybe the next few Star Wars films. Although suicide may be an option after those?

I recently bought a wool shirt for $9CDN

I am connected to the sales person that sold it to me.
The shelf stocker that put it on the rack.
The Shipping and receiving person that accepted it at the store.
The truck driver that brought it to the store.
The warehouse person that loaded the truck.
The other warehouse people and shippers and receivers that were involved getting it from the container yard.
The container yard workers that off loaded it from the ship.
The ship and crew that transported it from India.
The dock workers and transportation workers in India that picked it up from the factory and took it to the container port.
The factory person that packaged it for shipping.
The factory workers that cut and sewed the fabric into a shirt and added buttons
The weavers of the fabric
The makers of the thread
The dyers of the wool
The sellers of the wool
The farmers of the wool
The sheep that grew the wool
The grass that fed the sheep
The water that fed the grass
The sun that evaporated water to make it rain.

All the miners, smelters, casters, and manufactures that invented, created, built, sold and transported all the machines, tools, trucks, ships and computers that were involved from sheep to shirt to me.

Independence is an illusion.

Were I to pay myself minimum wage ($10.50 and hour here) to make my shirt (from sheep to shirt) would cost almost $400. Not including the buttons...

Simple living is however possible. I live very simply without the trappings of modern life that enslave many of my friends into working jobs they hate. I do the minimum amount of modern world treadmill running to allow me to do the things I really want to do. Goofing off in the woods, going on canoe trips, and traveling. So far it has worked and I think I have struck a balance. At least I have made it past 35 without dieing of diarrhea.

 

[boatman]

Cycle five miles, one hour, two hours including return plus, say one hour, queuing and seeing to other things. Only illustrating the difficulties ORDINARY people went through in order to illustrate that the op grand design is interesting but has been done before in many different ways. Apologies to the obsessives who must have the last word. This is mine on this topic.

 

[Goatboy]

Wasn't having a go Boatman, just saying that it's relatively easy calories. Plus with car ownership being less common then though it seems daunting to many modern humans it's not. One of the reasons the modern world is full of heavier folk is easy calories that require little or no expenditure. I live rurally and had to do a shop with a massive kit bag when I did without a car for a year.

 

[Stringmaker]

People are under the illusion that they are independent but we are all interconnected in a web that encompasses everything. The days of independent living are over. You can run around in the woods and die at 35 like our ancestors did from abscess teeth and diarrhea wearing animal skins but I want to be around to see a Mars landing and maybe the next few Star Wars films. Although suicide may be an option after those?

I recently bought a wool shirt for $9CDN

I am connected to the sales person that sold it to me.
The shelf stocker that put it on the rack.
The Shipping and receiving person that accepted it at the store.
The truck driver that brought it to the store.
The warehouse person that loaded the truck.
The other warehouse people and shippers and receivers that were involved getting it from the container yard.
The container yard workers that off loaded it from the ship.
The ship and crew that transported it from India.
The dock workers and transportation workers in India that picked it up from the factory and took it to the container port.
The factory person that packaged it for shipping.
The factory workers that cut and sewed the fabric into a shirt and added buttons
The weavers of the fabric
The makers of the thread
The dyers of the wool
The sellers of the wool
The farmers of the wool
The sheep that grew the wool
The grass that fed the sheep
The water that fed the grass
The sun that evaporated water to make it rain.

All the miners, smelters, casters, and manufactures that invented, created, built, sold and transported all the machines, tools, trucks, ships and computers that were involved from sheep to shirt to me.

Independence is an illusion.

Were I to pay myself minimum wage ($10.50 and hour here) to make my shirt (from sheep to shirt) would cost almost $400. Not including the buttons...

Simple living is however possible. I live very simply without the trappings of modern life that enslave many of my friends into working jobs they hate. I do the minimum amount of modern world treadmill running to allow me to do the things I really want to do. Goofing off in the woods, going on canoe trips, and traveling. So far it has worked and I think I have struck a balance. At least I have made it past 35 without dieing of diarrhea.

Great post and great writing.

 

[Swallow]

People are under the illusion that they are independent but we are all interconnected in a web that encompasses everything. The days of independent living are over. You can run around in the woods and die at 35 like our ancestors did from abscess teeth and diarrhea wearing animal skins but I want to be around to see a Mars landing and maybe the next few Star Wars films. Although suicide may be an option after those?

I recently bought a wool shirt for $9CDN

I am connected to the sales person that sold it to me.
The shelf stocker that put it on the rack.
The Shipping and receiving person that accepted it at the store.
The truck driver that brought it to the store.
The warehouse person that loaded the truck.
The other warehouse people and shippers and receivers that were involved getting it from the container yard.
The container yard workers that off loaded it from the ship.
The ship and crew that transported it from India.
The dock workers and transportation workers in India that picked it up from the factory and took it to the container port.
The factory person that packaged it for shipping.
The factory workers that cut and sewed the fabric into a shirt and added buttons
The weavers of the fabric
The makers of the thread
The dyers of the wool
The sellers of the wool
The farmers of the wool
The sheep that grew the wool
The grass that fed the sheep
The water that fed the grass
The sun that evaporated water to make it rain.

All the miners, smelters, casters, and manufactures that invented, created, built, sold and transported all the machines, tools, trucks, ships and computers that were involved from sheep to shirt to me.

Independence is an illusion.

Were I to pay myself minimum wage ($10.50 and hour here) to make my shirt (from sheep to shirt) would cost almost $400. Not including the buttons...

Simple living is however possible. I live very simply without the trappings of modern life that enslave many of my friends into working jobs they hate. I do the minimum amount of modern world treadmill running to allow me to do the things I really want to do. Goofing off in the woods, going on canoe trips, and traveling. So far it has worked and I think I have struck a balance. At least I have made it past 35 without dieing of diarrhea.

The last 4 points on your list point to the truth that we were never independent. However there is an almost contradictory truth that you have to be "independent" to be part of all this great web you describe.

 

[redneck]

Llwyd that is one of the best posts I have ever read!

 

[Llwyd]

No matter how skilled you are, you cannot have a mastery of every skill. With an axe I can build you almost anything given time. Maybe not a Volkswagen? I can even make a passable axe and would get better at it over time. I can probably smelt passable iron as I have read lots on it from my days apprenticing as a blacksmith. Viking age smelters apparently made crucible steel adding sand and broken glass to pull out the slag. I have never done it but could probably get it right after a few tries.

But I have no idea where to find iron ore? I am no miner.

You will always need somebody else for something no matter how clever you get. Just with your basic knife, you are connected through time to the tool makers straight through to the stone age. Somewhere, sometime, someone made an iron hammer with a bronze one and a bronze one with a copper one, and a copper one with a rock. Thanks to those artificers in metal we have it easy with our CNC milling machines and pneumatic hammers.

Try walking into the woods naked with a stick and coming up with a 4 inch metal knife. As a mental exercise think of all the things you have to create first to get there? You will need to take some time accomplishing this so you probably want to survive beyond the first weekend. Also you probably do not want your willy hanging out for all this so will need some clothes.

You are going to need to raid apple trees, berry bushes, birds nests, and grub filled logs to build up enough surplus calories to allow you to hunt a deer. This may or may not be successful the first few times since you only have a sharp stick.

A few months in you may be at the sharp rock stage so can turn that deer into rudimentary clothes and maybe an antler mining pick.

Statistically would die before making your knife which is why ancient peoples grouped together to share the work. Also it is way easier to poke other people with your stick and take their stuff. Unless their stick has a sharp rock tied to it...

 

[Swallow]

A few months in you may be at the sharp rock stage so can turn that deer into rudimentary clothes and maybe an antler mining pick.

Statistically would die before making your knife which is why ancient peoples grouped together to share the work. Also it is way easier to poke other people with your stick and take their stuff. Unless their stick has a sharp rock tied to it...

Firstly I am in no way qualified to pick apart anything Llywd says, as he has been doing this so long, but at the same time I do feel I must point out that Thomas J Elpel made what he called discoidal knives from stones at the riverbank in a few minutes and these were the only cutting edges he used for 3 days. Now they may well have been recced, the right sort of stones etc, etc. but still, it did only take minutes.


Have you guys seen the story on this thread which seems very relevant?
For 40 Years, This Russian family was cut off from all Human Contact
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102951

 

[Llwyd]

I tried to qualify the above by saying metal knife. Realistically in the modern world we have created a broken bottle is to be found almost anywhere and a scavenged knife not far behind that so in the event of a societal collapse finding sharp stuff would not be an issue.

As a mental exercise though, going from sharp stick to metal knife is pretty long costly and demanding.

 

[rg598]

Firstly I am in no way qualified to pick apart anything Llywd says, as he has been doing this so long, but at the same time I do feel I must point out that Thomas J Elpel made what he called discoidal knives from stones at the riverbank in a few minutes and these were the only cutting edges he used for 3 days. Now they may well have been recced, the right sort of stones etc, etc. but still, it did only take minutes.

Have you guys seen the story on this thread which seems very relevant?
For 40 Years, This Russian family was cut off from all Human Contact
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102951

It is surprisingly hard to find suitable rock in most areas. Even ancient people traded for rock over very long distances. I think in the sentence you quoted he meant making an actual iron knife, not just a piece of flint. Even if we are talking about flint through, finding the right rock, making it into a usable spear point, and successfully hunting with that spear before you die from starvation is less likely than a rescue helicopter accidentally landing two feat from you because the pilot had to pee really bad.

The Russian family in question went into the woods intentionally with a lot of resources. They carried pretty much their whole house with them including a stove which had to be broken into several pieces to be transported. They brought grain and seeds to plant. When the harvest failed one year, the mother died from starvation. It was just by luck that a single plant survived from which they could gather enough grain to start planting again.

As much as we want to talk about thriving in nature using our knowledge, it just doesn't happen this way. Even when people lived very close to nature, and had the skills, leaving the community and going into the woods alone was considered a death sentence. When people undertook trips through the woods alone, they were prepared, and carried appropriate gear and supplies for that trip.

 

[Swallow]

I am in agreement with just about everything that has been said on the thread, any points I have made have been intended to be small additions rather than contradictions. Incidentally it wasn't flint he was using it just ordinary stones, quite dark in colour. But there's a world of difference in going out for 3 days and what this thread is about.

 

[THOaken]

Update for 18/4/13.

Solitary Versus Communal Living.

http://www.oakenwise.com/primitive-living/update-1-18413/

 

[Mirius]

Nice to see the refocus and congratulations on that. I think the early links to the experimental archaeology were a point to continue to bear in mind because the simple truth is that we don't know all of the skills that were used and we have lost too much lore and we have frankly lost too much of the natural resources that were available in the UK. It has been pointed out that even the primitive groups were not independent and existed in a much larger trading network, and so too you need to model this and decide how you are going to handle that need to trade.

 

[THOaken]

Nice to see the refocus and congratulations on that. I think the early links to the experimental archaeology were a point to continue to bear in mind because the simple truth is that we don't know all of the skills that were used and we have lost too much lore and we have frankly lost too much of the natural resources that were available in the UK. It has been pointed out that even the primitive groups were not independent and existed in a much larger trading network, and so too you need to model this and decide how you are going to handle that need to trade.

What you've said is all very true and must be taken into consideration.

Thanks for the kind words, Mirius.

 

[Stringmaker]

It is surprisingly hard to find suitable rock in most areas. Even ancient people traded for rock over very long distances.

Exactly.

That is precisely how trade began; swapping a commodity from one area with someone from another area to whom it had value.

Hand axes made from just ONE specific site are found all over the place; they didn't get there by themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penmaenmawr

"There is evidence that axes from Graiglwyd were exported widely 5,000 years ago, examples having been found as far afield as Cornwall and south-east England."

 

[boatman]

Nice point using the reference of a picture to the BBC Living in the Past. The isolation of their community was the major flaw in the realism of the project. It wasn't only that they were modern young people in a prehistoric setting and thus felt the lack of some modern stimulus but were cut off from the trading, raiding and fairs of the period as well. It was telling that one of the relationships went through a rocky patch that improved after one of them walked out and phoned the producer from miles away at the seaside. Unwillingly the producer drove over to fetch him and bought fish and chips of which he refused the potato chips (fries) as not being Iron Age. He had left the compound, made a point as an individual and returned refreshed.

Note that he was not arrested in a seaside resort because of the large Iron Age knife in his belt.

 

[boatman]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Past...1366295625&sr=1-1&keywords=living+in+the+past

Just seen that the book of the BBC series of iron age life is available on amazon secondhand for a penny plus postage. Have ordered one of them.

 

[Stringmaker]

Don't forget that the TV company were making entertainment; the group dynamic is deliberately set up to trigger drama and conflict.

 

[boatman]

Don't forget that the TV company were making entertainment; the group dynamic is deliberately set up to trigger drama and conflict.

Remember it was a pioneer "Reality" show and I don't think this was necesarily so especially as to some extent the group was self-selective. The real anomally was the inclusion of a vegetarian family into what seems to be a high meat-eating period and they did, to be fair, fit in well in other respects.