Primitive Living

[THOaken]

Major Project Update #2: 25/4/13

Motivations & World-View (The Concept Part II) & Modern Living Exceptions

http://www.oakenwise.com/primitive-living/update-2-25413/

 

[rg598]

Major Project Update #2: 25/4/13

Motivations & World-View (The Concept Part II) & Modern Living Exceptions

http://www.oakenwise.com/primitive-living/update-2-25413/

I think there is a fallacy in thinking that modernity and woodsmanship (connecting to nature) are contradictory concepts. Too often we seem to think that the only way to be a woodsman is to either recreate the past, or to imagine some post apocalyptic future which has returned us to that state. I believe woodsmanship, connecting to nature, etc is perfectly possible withing the structures of modernity. There are many woodsmen living today who embrace modern technology and knowledge while accomplishing tasks in the wilderness that would rival any from the past.

 

[tsitenha]

Like the old saying it takes a village to raise a child... but the village has to keep itself alive before it can support a child.

I like the idea that so many would like to simplify their live but there should be a realistic achievable goal to it.

 

[boatman]

Very good point on using modern technology in a "prehistoric" environment. It could well be, and some cases already is, the way that indigenous peoples can choose to retain whatever they wish of their pre-contact lifestyles.

 

[Man of Tanith]

I think there is a fallacy in thinking that modernity and woodsmanship (connecting to nature) are contradictory concepts. Too often we seem to think that the only way to be a woodsman is to either recreate the past, or to imagine some post apocalyptic future which has returned us to that state. I believe woodsmanship, connecting to nature, etc is perfectly possible withing the structures of modernity. There are many woodsmen living today who embrace modern technology and knowledge while accomplishing tasks in the wilderness that would rival any from the past.

I can name one off the top my head.
Mors kochanski.
Uses modern clothing and material.
Definitely a woodsman of excellence.
There's definate rose tinted view of the past in my opinion......I'm as guilty of it as everyone else is.
Thats not to say there is anything wrong with bit of rose tinting. ...

 

[THOaken]

Let's steer the conversation toward the project for a minute. Do you think this is the right choice to make? Do you agree there needs to be a balance between the two options? Are there any resources you can share that are relative to the project? The conversations we have in this thread are interesting, but I think it'd be good to get more solid, real advice on how I can proceed with the project.

 

[Llwyd]

Assuming that you have no plans to let people die of preventable illnesses when a hospital exists down the road then you are already allowing the modern world in.

The question then is; Can I bring my chainsaw? I can do more work with it in 5 minutes than you can all day with an axe.

Personally I think it is the xbox and the iphone that are the distractions and a gas powered wood splitter and chainsaw make good sense. So are we living primitive or living simple? Even doing firewood the modern way is a pile of work. More so than cranking up the thermostat anyway.

 

[British Red]

Personally I think it is the xbox and the iphone that are the distractions and a gas powered wood splitter and chainsaw make good sense. So are we living primitive or living simple? Even doing firewood the modern way is a pile of work. More so than cranking up the thermostat anyway.

Can I get an "Amen"?

I do wonder about people who want to run to the woods who have never even heated a modern house with wood for a year! I've currently got about 6 cords (>30 cubic metres) of firewood seasoning - and there isn't a log in there I haven't processed. I use chainsaws and pneumatic splitters (plus axes, mauls, seldge and wedge).

Really - I laugh out loud at people who cannot heat and feed themselves with modern tools - or haven't even tried. They will never last a Winter in the woods with hand tools - its pure delusion. Many of these people don't even know how much wood it takes to keep warm in Winter - or how long to establish a decent garden - or how much to grow or how to store it.

Whilst I understand the desire, start learning how to do it with the assistance of chainsaws and rotovators in a well insulated house. If you can't make it there - you wont last a week without them!

 

[THOaken]

Can I get an "Amen"?

I do wonder about people who want to run to the woods who have never even heated a modern house with wood for a year! I've currently got about 6 cords (>30 cubic metres) of firewood seasoning - and there isn't a log in there I haven't processed. I use chainsaws and pneumatic splitters (plus axes, mauls, seldge and wedge).

Really - I laugh out loud at people who cannot heat and feed themselves with modern tools - or haven't even tried. They will never last a Winter in the woods with hand tools - its pure delusion. Many of these people don't even know how much wood it takes to keep warm in Winter - or how long to establish a decent garden - or how much to grow or how to store it.

Whilst I understand the desire, start learning how to do it with the assistance of chainsaws and rotovators in a well insulated house. If you can't make it there - you wont last a week without them!

I do hope this isn't aimed at me, since I'm fairly certain I've expressed my understanding that all of this will be very hard. Of all the things I am, delusional isn't one of them. And remember, Red, I'm only going to do this with a group of people. It won't be by myself. Let's remember I'm not doing this any time soon... This is just the conceptual phase.

 

[Silverhill]

Can I get an "Amen"?

Ah say Testifyyyyyy Brother Red!!

I've been away three months and there's still a current thread whereby someone wishes to 'return to nature'. Nothing wrong with the dream mind....Just need a bit of grounding in the hardships of (semi) sustainable modern living first that's all.

 

[THOaken]

Ah say Testifyyyyyy Brother Red!!

I've been away three months and there's still a current thread whereby someone wishes to 'return to nature'. Nothing wrong with the dream mind....Just need a bit of grounding in the hardships of (semi) sustainable modern living first that's all.

You haven't read anything I've written, have you? Also, your indirect remarks come across as a little hostile and superior. I understand you perfectly fine, friend. Read my articles and what I've been saying to people in this thread. I'm not an idiot. I'm not going to go out there without plenty of experience.

 

[Silverhill]

THOaken, I'm not being hostile, nor do I think you an idiot. The purpose of a forum is for debate I believe, and I find some of your thought processes a little convoluted but not unrealistic. I'd be extremely keen for you to use my woodland to practice if you're local enough and maybe see how you go about these things first hand without a keyboard and the Internet between us.

What you must understand is that many threads such as this start regularly, but fizzle out once a certain degree of reality takes hold. Those who succeed often dont return to the forum, possibly because they're having such a good time of it. Those that don't succeed return to document their failure or disappear of the face of the community; hence the degree of scepticism to which your proposal has been met.

I'm not knocking the dream, sure I hold it deep down myself, to see someone 'homegrown' succeed in their aims would be a great thing. BR is 'living the dream' as I would put it, in a sustainable manner, and I hope one day to so the same, but on my journey I've found it to be harder than anticipated in many respects and others are just dead-ends.

 

[British Red]

I do hope this isn't aimed at me, since I'm fairly certain I've expressed my understanding that all of this will be very hard. Of all the things I am, delusional isn't one of them. And remember, Red, I'm only going to do this with a group of people. It won't be by myself. Let's remember I'm not doing this any time soon... This is just the conceptual phase.

Its not "aimed" at anyone THOaken. Its a comment on these threads I have seen coming up for years. I'm not the guys here who have lived in the woods for a year - but I have lived "rough" for more than a year (not as a hunter gatherer), and I do, currently, try to live a low impact lifestyle. This includes heating by wood - as an example.

If you have never cut wood for a season - you cannot understand the work involved. Thats not a personal dig, its just an observation. I just cut my heat for the Winter after next. With a 3.6hp chainsaw. Its backbreaking even then. Now imagine hauling that wood to where you need it....by hand. Bear in mind the weight...we are talking heavy horses and log cradles to move a large trunk....I get mine delivered on a 7 1/2 tonne tipper truck....it takes multiple deliveries to even get close to the wood for a year.

So imagine feling the tree and hauling back to where you need it....you really need to do this 18 months before you want to burn it. Its crushing work. If you haven't done it well in advance, then you need even more as its less efficient.

That is one tiny example

 

[British Red]

I'd be extremely keen for you to use my woodland to practice if you're local enough and maybe see how you go about these things first hand without a keyboard and the Internet between us.

I'll bring one man crosscut saws, axes, mauls, wedges, grenades, and all rest and demonstrate exactly what we are talking about if that ever happens

 

[THOaken]

THOaken, I'm not being hostile, nor do I think you an idiot. The purpose of a forum is for debate I believe, and I find some of your thought processes a little convoluted but not unrealistic. I'd be extremely keen for you to use my woodland to practice if you're local enough and maybe see how you go about these things first hand without a keyboard and the Internet between us.

What you must understand is that many threads such as this start regularly, but fizzle out once a certain degree of reality takes hold. Those who succeed often dont return to the forum, possibly because they're having such a good time of it. Those that don't succeed return to document their failure or disappear of the face of the community; hence the degree of scepticism to which your proposal has been met.

I'm not knocking the dream, sure I hold it deep down myself, to see someone 'homegrown' succeed in their aims would be a great thing. BR is 'living the dream' as I would put it, in a sustainable manner, and I hope one day to so the same, but on my journey I've found it to be harder than anticipated in many respects and others are just dead-ends.

Yes, I understand all of this. Living primitively is something which many people strive to achieve. I differ in that I'm only going to go out there when I know I have a group of willing individuals whom I trust to work together as a team. This isn't just one man going out into the woods anymore. I've realised that's far too difficult. The end goal is to erect a settlement and try to live a Neolithic lifestyle. It's been done before. The project will be steeped in research and nothing will be done without proper preparation. I should remind you that this project's time-scale is in the decades. This is the conceptual phase and I don't plan to proceed into the next phase any time soon. All of this is subject to change and a great deal of thought. It might never be done, but I'm willing to give it a go.

Edit: A friend of my co-writer Francis is building a roundhouse this summer in Canada with a bunch of friends. I might take a trip there to document the process first hand. So, as I say, it'll all come in time.

Edit: British Red, I understand this as well. I've no experience living a low-impact lifestyle. I'm a 20 year old living in a modern household with very little current exposure to nature. All of this will change in time. This project, as I said before, is on a large time-scale. I must stress that I won't be doing this by myself. Remember what the Oakenwise: Primitive Living Project is now, or will be... A joint effort. I appreciate your comments.

 

[Silverhill]

I'll bring one man crosscut saws, axes, mauls, wedges, grenades, and all rest and demonstrate exactly what we are talking about if that ever happens

Definitely. It's only a few acres though, I'll see if we can muster up a muntjac for tea.

 

[British Red]

The end goal is to erect a settlement and try to live a Neolithic lifestyle..

So no metal axes, no saws, no metal cooking pots, no knives? Is that right?

 

[mountainm]

So no metal axes, no saws, no metal cooking pots, no knives? Is that right?

Wasn't there a TV experiment that did that?

 

[British Red]

Definitely. It's only a few acres though, I'll see if we can muster up a muntjac for tea.

I'm up for it. I even have a stone axe head that John Lord knapped for me. I'll knock up a Neolithic axe for the occasion

 

[boatman]

Now we have had the doomsayers can we look at the practical?

We have both an Iron Age and Bronze Age basic kit that matches that supplied to the participants in the Living in the Past programme. Axe, knives, sickle, maul and some of the rest they were supplied with including a saddle quern although for the Iron Age we would like a rotary quern.

Bronze Age we have much the same with the addition of some flint tools. Axes, adze, knives, spear, sickle etc.

If we were doing a living history display then the kit would be fined down to an approximate period.

With these kits we could construct most of the rest of what was needed, baskets, ard, nets, nightline with blackthorn hooks and the frame of a coracle. And a house.

The coracle is interesting because really one would have to cheat to make the hull covering as either pitched canvas or cowhide would be wrong but surely such practical solutions are acceptable?