Primitive Living

[British Red]

It is difficult enough to work with early 21st century tools. Anyone attempting this primitive experiment would be advised to go work on a farm for a year and see if they like it and then multiply the work load by several orders of magnitude.

Thanks for this post Llwyd - thats the point I was trying (and failing) to make. Its hard enough to learn all the necessary skills with 21st century aids.

A tiny example is my wheat growing experiment this year...long stem old varieties....which are not grown here now because the wind tends to flatten them. I want them partly to produce authentic "skeps" for my bees rather than wooden hives...and you need long straw for that. But I am learning beekeeping in wooden hives first!

This stuff is HARD - I've been trying to develop some of the "simpler living" skills for many years - the less reliant you are on outside input for seeds, tools, fuels and materials, the harder you make it.

 

[Toddy]

Forgive me if I'm wrong BR, but the straw skeps meant that in the past folks killed most of the bees when the honey was extracted; they were killed with sulphur smoke and the honey cut out. That's why the queen excluder and the forms were considered a positive development. Yes/no ?

M

 

[Toddy]

They were bright because they often used clear ice for a skylight. As bright as it can be in the arctic in winter. I never mentioned anything about cleaning anyway, just the vent hole without which your igloo does not survive the winter.

From the Inuit themselves.....


No one wanted it to be dripping inside, or for soot to build up, especially after a storm. The igloos were cleaned every day. On waking up, they smoothed the sleeping platform (also made of snow) with their feet. Igloos usually had two entrances. A block of ice served as a window, and it had to be scraped frequently to keep it transparent, because it supplied the only light during the day. It was also necessary to clean the floor of accumulated dirt, soot and sometimes urine. The old snow was removed and replaced with clean snow. The bed at the rear of the igloo required lots of maintenance, because it was one of the places that got the dirtiest. The Inuit were careful to keep their igloos clean and livable, just as they now keep their houses. The worst chore was to clean the cracks in the floor. Once cleaned, the igloo was tidy and bright.

In the morning, the igloo was very cold, because it was not heated during the night. Everyone slept naked in the big bed, with their clothing piled on top to keep them warmer. By morning, the kamiks (boots) were frozen stiff, and they had to be forced on.

Everyday, the children had to fetch water and take out the waste bucket even if it was very cold out. Then they did the same chores for their grandparents and elderly neighbours.

The only source of heat and light in the igloo was the qulliq. Clothes were hung to dry above the qulliq. If the men had not killed any seals lately and the seal oil had run out, the homes were cold and dark. "

 

[British Red]

Not entirely true Mary - you can in fact include a narrow hole in the skep crown and have a skep "super" over the skep "brood box". Effectively a queen excluder is in the design - Jack Hargreaves did a great show on it in the "Out of Town" series thirty odd years ago. Skeps are currently used for swarm capture by some beekeepers prior to rehousing.

The modern design does allow much easier access to the brood for inspection and health checking, and to the honey in the supers for sure!

It is likely that in the old way of using skeps, weak colonies or excess ones were indeed smoked out and the bees killed. Also likely that bees were in fact encouraged to swarm in those days to make up the losses - whereas now we tend to breed for swarm adversity.

I would certainly like to learn the skill - my beekeeping mentor was delighted when he found I am trying to grow 4 foot stemmed wheat and offered to teach me skepping in exchange for some of the seed. I would love to keep a colony in a skep - even if I never extract from it - part of our reason for beekeeping is pollinating our fruit trees after all!

 

[Toddy]

I did wonder; I knew that the swarming was an important part of the process in the past; the old rhyme about a swarm in May being worth a load of hay, a swarm in June a silver spoon, but one in July, let it fly; but wasn't sure if the queen in the small top skep bit meant that modern hives didn't need to kill off most of the colony or not.

We live and learn

M

 

[British Red]

Heck I am going on what I have read or seen - which isn't learning - just repeating other peoples opinions

But I have the bees....with luck I will have suitable straw and a man who knows how to make skeps. Be a criminal shame not to have a try I think?

 

[Toddy]

Traditional skills are always worth learning Surprising how often they can be utilised, even if not for the original purpose

atb,
M

 

[rg598]

@ THOaken My advise is to listen to British Red and Llwyd. They seem to have more experience at actual self sustained living that the rest of us. From my perspective, I would advise that you dial it back with the whole "project" thing. It looks like you are gearing up for a TV show, and I'm sure that is not your intent. Before developing any grandiose projects, why not just try being in the woods? Start out by backpacking and camping. Undertake several long term trips (hike the AT, or do the TGO), spend a few weeks camping somewhere in the highlands. All of those experiences will show you what is doable and what is not, or simply what you don't want to do. I've known plenty of people who have been "in love" with the woods, until we spent couple of days carrying gear up a mountain, and then they decide it's not for them. You can figure those things out without some type of huge project. Every weekend and vacation is an opportunity to do it. You can easily find out how good of a hunter you are, or how much wood you use up during a day in winter just by doing some regular camping in the woods.

From there you can start moving into more complex projects. There are people here who use gear from specific time periods, but they do it because they enjoy it, or see the challenge in it. I would bet all of them arrived at that point after many years of being in the woods and deciding what works for them and what doesn't.

Walk before you run. I know you are saying that this is a very long term project, but as such, there isn't much of a point to it. It's like me designing a space shuttle in the hopes that one day I will go to engineering school and become an aerospace engineer. I don't think it is feasible to properly outline such a project without first having the appropriate foundation, which can only be acquired through time in the woods.

 

[boatman]

Nomad, to say start out with backpacking etc doesn't make sense in relation to the project. Hiking with all the modern gear and clothing that insulates one from the envronment is as pointless as it would be to learn how to live in a cottage with a woodburning stove and the proper use of hydrocarbon burning tools.

 

[THOaken]

@ THOaken My advise is to listen to British Red and Llwyd. They seem to have more experience at actual self sustained living that the rest of us. From my perspective, I would advise that you dial it back with the whole "project" thing. It looks like you are gearing up for a TV show, and I'm sure that is not your intent. Before developing any grandiose projects, why not just try being in the woods? Start out by backpacking and camping. Undertake several long term trips (hike the AT, or do the TGO), spend a few weeks camping somewhere in the highlands. All of those experiences will show you what is doable and what is not, or simply what you don't want to do. I've known plenty of people who have been "in love" with the woods, until we spent couple of days carrying gear up a mountain, and then they decide it's not for them. You can figure those things out without some type of huge project. Every weekend and vacation is an opportunity to do it. You can easily find out how good of a hunter you are, or how much wood you use up during a day in winter just by doing some regular camping in the woods.

From there you can start moving into more complex projects. There are people here who use gear from specific time periods, but they do it because they enjoy it, or see the challenge in it. I would bet all of them arrived at that point after many years of being in the woods and deciding what works for them and what doesn't.

Walk before you run. I know you are saying that this is a very long term project, but as such, there isn't much of a point to it. It's like me designing a space shuttle in the hopes that one day I will go to engineering school and become an aerospace engineer. I don't think it is feasible to properly outline such a project without first having the appropriate foundation, which can only be acquired through time in the woods.

I've said too many times now that I am listening to those with experience. Have I not made it clear enough? I've been reading all of British Red and Lloyd's post since the start of this thread. Tell me, what is it I must do to perish my apparent reputation for ignorance?

See, " I'm grateful for all that you've said in this thread. Everyone's insight is greatly appreciated", for example.

Your advice is also greatly appreciated.

Thanks, but I think you need not say anymore what everyone else has been saying. And I've said before that, yes, I plan to GAIN more experience. How many times do I have to say that this project's time-scale is most probably in the decades? Everything you've said I plan to do and has been taken on-board, but you are right... I might hold off on the outlining of the project. I need a better grasp of the basics to form the foundation of my experience. I have a general idea about the different phases I might need to undertake, though. The general phase structure I have in mind for the entire project is as follows:

Phase 1 - Conceptual = This is the current phase. This phase is also the one in which I gain more experience in the outdoors and in living history communities.
Phase 2 - Building the Settlement = This is the phase that would detail the building of the settlement. Historical research and accuracy would be key here.
Phase 3 - Living Primitively = This is the phase, I imagine, that'd detail exact an exact lifestyle plan. Historical accuracy also key here.

This is a very loose structure. I'll take you on your word, Rg598. I was planning on writing an updated outline, but I think I'll leave it for now.

 

[Llwyd]

Nomad, to say start out with backpacking etc doesn't make sense in relation to the project. Hiking with all the modern gear and clothing that insulates one from the envronment is as pointless as it would be to learn how to live in a cottage with a woodburning stove and the proper use of hydrocarbon burning tools.

Actually yeah; it does.

If you find those activities too hard with modern tools and gear you may want to rethink attempting the same activities with less efficient antiquated gear and equipment.

When I was a kid I was out of place and time too and wanted to do everything the way a craftsman would from days gone by. I was restoring an antique wooden sleigh to be hauled by one of my horses. Really not much of the original could be used so I had to use the original more as a pattern. I worked on it for months. My next door neighbour Mike was also building one and there is a part on the front called a wiffletree that I worked on for hours with my axes draw knives chisels and hand drills. After a whole night of carving mine out Mike carved his with a jig saw and a belt sander in about 10 minutes.

He said something about ancient celts trading their children for power tools in a heartbeat and using every advantage they could get which is why they were successful. He said we were still the ancient celts only our tools had changed.

Eventually I understood the lesson.

So for me living in the woods is not about $hitting in a ditch and freezing wrapped in wet buckskin while trying to hack down a tree with an axe. It is about being in the woods with a comfortable home where visitors are not afraid to come where I can have a primitive building out back where I can play as often as I want to. Away from cars and buildings and people with cell phones but I can still take advantage of modern tools and equipment that allows me to occasionally just open up a beer and relax.

 

[rik_uk3]

Phase 3 - Living Primitively = This is the phase, I imagine, that'd detail exact an exact lifestyle plan. Historical accuracy also key here.

But you can't do that with just you, or even several of you. In fact I doubt you could do it with a group, certainly in the UK with so little land available not forgetting the cash to buy land. I wish you all the luck in the world but to be honest I think you should look at this more as a weekend re-enactment project, i.e. don't give up your day job; maybe make a bit of dosh running some courses or taking in paying guests for the weekend.

 

[THOaken]

Phase 3 - Living Primitively = This is the phase, I imagine, that'd detail exact an exact lifestyle plan. Historical accuracy also key here.

But you can't do that with just you, or even several of you. In fact I doubt you could do it with a group, certainly in the UK with so little land available not forgetting the cash to buy land. I wish you all the luck in the world but to be honest I think you should look at this more as a weekend re-enactment project, i.e. don't give up your day job; maybe make a bit of dosh running some courses or taking in paying guests for the weekend.

Yes, you speak the truth, Rik.

Everything is subject to change. Who knows what will happen? A point I must impress upon you is I won't be taking any drastic actions. It might sound like it, but I'm not so attached to the project that I'd give up everything I have on a whim. How could I be so attached? It was a single idea that developed over time. It's only been a few months and I've made no real progress. At the moment the project consists of a few articles, mere words. Also, I'm not particularly worried if the project doesn't come to fruition. It may end up just being a "weekend thing". I'm not the type of person to put all my hopes and dreams on a single project like this. In fact, the last couple of posts in this thread have made me think if I should take step back. I was never going to go headfirst into the project, but I think, perhaps, it's too much of an undertaking. I should start small, I agree. I see it as a good thing that you all were able to impart your experience upon me and I'm glad to have had this almost sudden change of mind. I say "almost sudden" because this has been in the back of my mind for a while now. In fact, I'd rather unashamedly call out my ideas as being somewhat romanticized and, perhaps, naive by the end, if it weren't for the fact that I protest against those very things. I listened to what all of you had to say and the voices of reason have commanded that I make changes to the Oakenwise: Primitive Living Project for the better.

I will think about this seriously. I'll probably write an article regarding changes to the project. I'll update BCUK soon.

Edit: bold

 

[rg598]

Nomad, to say start out with backpacking etc doesn't make sense in relation to the project. Hiking with all the modern gear and clothing that insulates one from the envronment is as pointless as it would be to learn how to live in a cottage with a woodburning stove and the proper use of hydrocarbon burning tools.

That is in my opinion extremely innumerate, and has lead many people to do stupid things in the woods. Walk before you run, or more exactly before posting about running online.

edit: by "you" I don't mean you specifically.

 

[British Red]

THO

I am left feeling like I've "p1ssed on your chips". That was never my intent - nor was standing by whilst "suicide by camping" took place. What I was trying to get to was, learning to grow a crop is hard - learning to seed save so that you have something to grow the next year is harder still. Fertilising the soil triples the complexity. Add in harvesting your own fuel and building a cooking system yourself...well - I think its too much to swallow in one lump. Learning crop management without pesticides or fertiliser (as we do) is hard enough without all the rest. Once you have that down - you can always add the next level. My veg beds are just getting good now....three years in. I am still learning to grow heritage wheat...let alone reaping, threshing or storing.

Anyway - if you want to get hands on with this stuff - from a couple of nights in Silverhills woods, to learning to sharpen an axe or handsaw, feel free to to come and try it!

Its a schlep down here for you - but the offers there - there are probably also people closer who would be happy to help

Red

 

[THOaken]

THO

I am left feeling like I've "p1ssed on your chips". That was never my intent - nor was standing by whilst "suicide by camping" took place. What I was trying to get to was, learning to grow a crop is hard - learning to seed save so that you have something to grow the next year is harder still. Fertilising the soil triples the complexity. My veg beds are just getting good now....three years in. I am still learning to grow heritage wheat...let alone reaping, threshing or storing.

Anyway - if you want to get hands on with this stuff - from a couple of nights in Silverhills woods, to learning to sharpen an axe or handsaw, feel free to to come and try it!

Its a schlep down here for you - but the offers there - there are probably also people closer who would be happy to help

Red

Not at all. Pretty much everything you've said is logical. In no way have you crushed my dreams, or however you want to put it. Well, crushed my dreams sounds a bit harsh. Maybe not that. I was getting a head of myself, that I now know. Don't feel bad. I don't.

Cheers.

 

[British Red]

Glad to hear it - I was chatting with another member recently on soap making. Learning to make a bar of soap is one of those "microcosms" of what I was describing.

First learn to do it with modern boought fats and caustic soda

Then learn to render fat

Then learn to make lye from wood ash....

well - you get the idea!

 

[THOaken]

Glad to hear it - I was chatting with another member recently on soap making. Learning to make a bar of soap is one of those "microcosms" of what I was describing.

First learn to do it with modern boought fats and caustic soda

Then learn to render fat

Then learn to make lye from wood ash....

well - you get the idea!

You know what's interesting? I'm actually someone who very much likes structure and procedural progress. I usually like climbing the ladder of progression and advancement in whatever it is I do. So, yes, I understand.

 

[THOaken]

I've written a final article on the project for my website. Here is said article in full though it's rather short, sweet and to the point, I think.

"After some time speaking to some of the wise outdoorsmen of Bushcraft UK, I've decided, quite simply, to scale down my project.

Here is part of my Bushcraft UK post that summarizes my thoughts:

"Everything is subject to change. Who knows what will happen? A point I must impress upon you [forum member] is I won't be taking any drastic actions. It might sound like it, but I'm not so attached to the project that I'd give up everything I have on a whim. How could I be so attached? It was a single idea that developed over time. It's only been a few months and I've made no real progress. At the moment the project consists of a few articles, mere words. Also, I'm not particularly worried if the project doesn't come to fruition. It may end up just being a "weekend thing". I'm not the type of person to put all my hopes and dreams on a single project like this. In fact, the last couple of posts in this thread have made me think if I should take step back. I was never going to go head-first into the project, but I think, perhaps, it's too much of an undertaking. I should start small, I agree. I see it as a good thing that you all were able to impart your experiences upon me and I'm glad to have had this almost sudden change of mind. I say "almost sudden" because this has been in the back of my mind for a while now. In fact, I'd rather unashamedly call out my ideas as being somewhat romanticized and, perhaps, naive by the end, if it weren't for the fact that I protest against those very things. I listened to what all of you had to say and the voices of reason have commanded that I make changes to the Oakenwise: Primitive Living Project for the better."

While short-lived, the project went through various changes of concept, from solitary, self-reliance to full-scale communal settlement construction. And, in my last update, I entertained the idea of incorporating modern technology into a primitive lifestyle. All of these changes were guided by the forces of reason and logic. Why try to live a solitary life when no single man could do so without the help of others? Why live a life of unknowing when I could work together with modern technology to better understand the men of past, at the same time as living like them? To some, the changes I made could be seen as getting too far ahead of myself and, while I agree, I think it's clear to see what I tried to do. That is, I took everyone's critiques to heart and let them directly influenced the project.

In said thread, the point was made that I should learn to walk before I can run. While I fully understand everyone's concern, I'd argue that the majority of the content of the project would've been spent gaining said experience, about learning primitive skills. The running part is equivalent to the building of the settlement and living in it. That was the end goal. That's when I would've tried to run.

The idea for an Oakenwise: Primitive Living Project isn't going away entirely, I don't think, as I still want to live in the past. Perhaps after a few years in a living history group I could start my own business with a few friends? Maybe on the weekends we could build that roundhouse I had that crazy idea of living in? Who knows? Only time will tell."

 

[almac]

this is a great thread.
I have considered doing this a lot lately.
however after pondering my own skillset, I ran into a few snags.

you can't hunt for food in Canada year round. to do so would be illegal in Canada.
to really live away from civilization, you would have to forgo all firearms unless you had plans to resupply in towns. sure you can reload ammunition and recast lead bullets, but you still need things like powder and primers.

to really make it IMO, you would have to go back to primitive hunting with bow & arrow.
B&A hunting is extremely harder than hunting by rifle. animals are easy to scare off. if you can't craft your own bow in the bush, it will be very hard to survive in an isolated environment.

for me personally, my wilderness skills are ok. but my food gathering/hunting skills are not. this spring I will be looking into crafting primitive bows and arrows, and learning gathering and herbal plants. another of my goals this year is to build a small cabin(not a lean to).

good luck in your endeavors.