Based on a one-sided opening post on an internet forum? The court of bushcraftUK is now in session.
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Based on a one-sided opening post on an internet forum? The court of bushcraftUK is now in session.
I cant help but think there must of been a complaint, other wise how would the officer have known they were there at 9am on a sunday morning unless someone living locally had called the police because they had been kept awake until 5am .
Of course the other reason the officer was there could be that she was busting to go for a wee pulled up her van at that exact place and then came across the camp while wondering through the bushes looking for a suitable place to do her business .
what gets me is those documentaries following the police,ive seen loud swearing,hands of the wheel driving,parking dangerous,operating equipment with eyes of the road in a non emergency etc.
i was fined for swearing when in deep shock after a woman on a mobile nearley knocked me of my motorbike and nearley ran a woman and pram over.
the police at the scene swore themselves in front of me,stopped me legally taking photos of the womans car etc.
used the threat of arrest [i am claustrophobic] as a means against me.
she was let of,way to get our respect.
i was fined for swearing when in deep shock after a woman on a mobile nearley knocked me of my motorbike and nearley ran a woman and pram over.
the police at the scene swore themselves in front of me,stopped me legally taking photos of the womans car etc.
used the threat of arrest [i am claustrophobic] as a means against me.
she was let of,way to get our respect.
utter rubbish
he accepted the caution which in the eyes of the law is an acceptance of guilt
count yourselves lucky she didn't nick the lot of you for the illegal camp
We are not being given the whole story, and I guess it depends on your experience with the police as to what colours your judgement. Given my experience with the police (quite a fair amount) I’d say the officer in question felt they had a reason to act as they did.
Personal bias against the police are being waved about like they are cast iron facts. I think this thread is dead in the water and needs to be closed.
Personal bias against the police are being waved about like they are cast iron facts. I think this thread is dead in the water and needs to be closed.
I'm not going to try to judge the rights or wrongs of the what the OP is saying as I feel as though we don't really have all of the information. However this bit is incorrect. Although Nickelarse hasn't posted much (at all) he seems to have been a member since mid-way through 2010. I doubt that he joined then in anticipation of a run in with the police.
Cheers!
Huon
Agreed.
We don't know all the facts about the camp or the context of how the PC came to be involved.
All the rest of it is either bias, opinion or perception.
And just what is an illegal camp and where on the statute books is this crime named? Did you mention rubbish?
Whilst I agree with many that we're not being told all of the story, the issue of permission (or not) to camp is quite interesting. Normally, trespass on land is a civil (as opposed to a legal) offence and the police cannot do anything about that. HOWEVER, under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 trespass on land with "anti-social" behaviour IS a criminal offence so if the OP & friends were being anti-social, the police have every right (IMHO) to intervene.
From my limited experiences dealing with police with knives / axes / etc (Scout Leader), I've found them generally to be pragmatic if you can clearly explain why, as an example, you have a bag with 8 4" fixed bladed knives (Clippers) on your possession. I would suspect that there is more to this story that we have been told.
From my limited experiences dealing with police with knives / axes / etc (Scout Leader), I've found them generally to be pragmatic if you can clearly explain why, as an example, you have a bag with 8 4" fixed bladed knives (Clippers) on your possession. I would suspect that there is more to this story that we have been told.
We only know what the guy typed on this forum but there are a few points made by some that got me a little confused. One person gave a nice list of things he/she would do if in an area they were not sure of but the OP said it was a local spot near the edge of their village that they'd been to many times before. I'm guessing to do the same sorts of activities and without issue. Why was this time different? Was it a complaint or just a bored copper (that does happen but I'd suspect coppers are like most workers in UK in that they are lazy if they can get away with it).
Second point I haven't wild camped by rivers but tend to camp in the hills of Lakes or Scotland. In the Lakes you are pretty much always within walking distance of a road at a lot of popular camp spots. Some of my favourites I can get to in less than 1 hour quite easily. They are out of the way though. This is probably harder to do in flatter or lower lying areas like the Vale of York is yet others do wildcamp in these sorts of areas. I'm sure I've read a few things on here of people doing just what this group had been doing and probably in similar sorts of areas too. It is kind of par for the cause in England with access laws here being what they are.
I also have a problem with someone accepting a caution just because he has to get to work. I'm sure a record of a caution is worth fighting if you believe you are innocent of wrongdoing. The only thing I would go against my principles and accept what I believed to be a wrong caution would be if it would lose me my job, but then would a caution affect your employment now or later on??
Another problem I have is the tone of the OP. He is angry and that is the reason for the tone. Why do other posters have a negative response to him? Was it his tone? Or was it the way he explained the situation so black and white on his friend's side? Nothing is black and white, ever!
Personally my view is nothing is right with this thread and the events described. I don't believe the OP completely but I do think if he is mostly right (even if he got backs up in the way he posted it on here) then the result was not right. I also wonder if the copper who posted on here saying once accepted the caution can not be altered.
Second point I haven't wild camped by rivers but tend to camp in the hills of Lakes or Scotland. In the Lakes you are pretty much always within walking distance of a road at a lot of popular camp spots. Some of my favourites I can get to in less than 1 hour quite easily. They are out of the way though. This is probably harder to do in flatter or lower lying areas like the Vale of York is yet others do wildcamp in these sorts of areas. I'm sure I've read a few things on here of people doing just what this group had been doing and probably in similar sorts of areas too. It is kind of par for the cause in England with access laws here being what they are.
I also have a problem with someone accepting a caution just because he has to get to work. I'm sure a record of a caution is worth fighting if you believe you are innocent of wrongdoing. The only thing I would go against my principles and accept what I believed to be a wrong caution would be if it would lose me my job, but then would a caution affect your employment now or later on??
Another problem I have is the tone of the OP. He is angry and that is the reason for the tone. Why do other posters have a negative response to him? Was it his tone? Or was it the way he explained the situation so black and white on his friend's side? Nothing is black and white, ever!
Personally my view is nothing is right with this thread and the events described. I don't believe the OP completely but I do think if he is mostly right (even if he got backs up in the way he posted it on here) then the result was not right. I also wonder if the copper who posted on here saying once accepted the caution can not be altered.
He he, it's great the way the OP comes on, says his things, posts a bit and then everyone else carries it on for him.
The way I see things like this is that I wasn't there, I have no idea of the situation, I've heard one side, I do not know the small details, any other circumstances or the situation, the people, the police woman or anything really, what we're actually talking about is a hypothetical situation and that just aint worth getting any knickers in a twist for. Threads like this can be useful because they bring out the law that covers camping, knife possession and use etc etc. We need to be very careful what we say though and how we say it, I deleted a post earlier in the thread because it was just ignorant and the worst thing that can come out of a thread like this is that you as bushcrafters come across as ignorant, aggressive, lawbreaking, arrogant etc etc, who wants to deal with people like that, IF I was a police officer adn I thought we had bad attitudes I'm not going to approach things from a reasonable starting position?
Well structured thoughtful and accurate answers are by far the best way to get the most from a thread like this, I think it's particularly good that we have police officers contributing as they have a unique perspective that we should appreciate, they see it from both sides, thank you for your contributions.
The OP has an issue that we'll never fix for him, they need to do that themselves, advice and level headed comments are great. I just want to make sure that a thread like this can stay open because if it goes down hill which it's very capable of doing we'll just bin it and it will not be as useful as it has the potential to be.
The way I see things like this is that I wasn't there, I have no idea of the situation, I've heard one side, I do not know the small details, any other circumstances or the situation, the people, the police woman or anything really, what we're actually talking about is a hypothetical situation and that just aint worth getting any knickers in a twist for. Threads like this can be useful because they bring out the law that covers camping, knife possession and use etc etc. We need to be very careful what we say though and how we say it, I deleted a post earlier in the thread because it was just ignorant and the worst thing that can come out of a thread like this is that you as bushcrafters come across as ignorant, aggressive, lawbreaking, arrogant etc etc, who wants to deal with people like that, IF I was a police officer adn I thought we had bad attitudes I'm not going to approach things from a reasonable starting position?
Well structured thoughtful and accurate answers are by far the best way to get the most from a thread like this, I think it's particularly good that we have police officers contributing as they have a unique perspective that we should appreciate, they see it from both sides, thank you for your contributions.
The OP has an issue that we'll never fix for him, they need to do that themselves, advice and level headed comments are great. I just want to make sure that a thread like this can stay open because if it goes down hill which it's very capable of doing we'll just bin it and it will not be as useful as it has the potential to be.
Permission to camp is kind of hard to arrange and a lot just wildcamp discretely. Seems the OP has done that in the past in the same spot. I've done that loads of times myself and I am certain most on here have camped without permission from the landowner as well. A bit hypocritical to insist on landowner's permission being needed by the OP if you rarely have it yourself. People make their own decisions on whether to take that risk.
The thing that most people often dont seem to understand is that the Police are not judge jury or executioner, they are simply there to acompany you to the station should they believe you are in breach of the law. Some coppers are better informed than others but none are solicitors or baristors and i imagine their poor pay and growing lack of respect reflect this.
The problem is if you start off on shakey ground, no permission to camp on that land, no permission to light a fire then you are fighting a losing battle. You friend should have taken leagal advice and should not have taken a caution for intent if there wasnt any. At the end of the day you were on private land, burning the owners wood without permission whilst tooled up. Whilst i dont believe your friend was guilty of the offence he was given a caution for, you were all guilty of a few other offences they could have easily taken you for such as criminal damage. Trespass i beleive is civil.
The problem is if you start off on shakey ground, no permission to camp on that land, no permission to light a fire then you are fighting a losing battle. You friend should have taken leagal advice and should not have taken a caution for intent if there wasnt any. At the end of the day you were on private land, burning the owners wood without permission whilst tooled up. Whilst i dont believe your friend was guilty of the offence he was given a caution for, you were all guilty of a few other offences they could have easily taken you for such as criminal damage. Trespass i beleive is civil.
The Carrying of a large knife made it subject to police action
Criminal Law Act 1977Trespassing with a weapon of offence.
(1)A person who is on any premises as a trespasser, after having entered as such, is guilty of an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, he has with him on the premises any weapon of offence.
(2)In subsection (1) above “weapon of offence” means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use.
(4)A constable in uniform may arrest without warrant anyone who is, or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be, in the act of committing an offence under this section.
#
Apologies for editing your post Tone but the above I agree with most. Half the story, knickers in a twist and we'll never fix it on here. +1 all those comments. Plus one from me...we are all experts in the law on these topics and all have our opinions. Truth is we aren't (mostly I reckon) and we are only expressing our opinions and views of the law. Some quote articles of laws with some degree of having done their research on these posts but I doubt if they have done their articles at a solicitors of note nor passed their bar exam.
Police have a hard job...yes they do and they get paid for it too (is it enough that's another matter). They are also human and will never know the law that much better than a guy with a PC and time to do his research I'm sure. Seems we're all experts when we have a PC to hand. Coppers don't have that when on the job. Mistakes happen, they are human. They are also as inclined to shortcuts and even being wrong as any of us. From past connections with retired coppers I've got that opinion and the one that they work hard and play hard too (hungover coppers are not unusual).
I put this thread down to the OP venting and the rest is just re-hash of the old arguments. I don't think it is good for raising awareness of the laws as I believe the stickies on these sorts of subjects would surely be better.
The key to successful stealth camping is in the name.
Do it stealthily.
Don't do it close to a village.
Don't build a big fire.
Don't go in large groups (I consider 6 to be a large group).
Don't make noise in the early hours. Noise carries a long way in the relative quiet of the night.
Don't leave any litter/firescars or someone will keep their eye out for the next time you camp there.
This way no one gets upset and you go home having enjoyed a nice camp out leaving things exactly as they were.
If you bring attention to yourself, then someone who is probably already inclined to do so will make a phonecall as undoubtedly happened here.
Once the police officer is there you have to accept you are at her mercy really, but you've only yourselves to blame for that. Personally I wouldn't have accepted a caution for carrying a knife if I felt I was within the law to carry it but obviously he had his reasons.
Edit: I should just point out that I've only ever stealth camped out on land where I have lawfully been allowed to be, such as national parks or national trust land ( I am a member after all!), not on a private individual's land. I bet that opens up a whole new debate now
Do it stealthily.
Don't do it close to a village.
Don't build a big fire.
Don't go in large groups (I consider 6 to be a large group).
Don't make noise in the early hours. Noise carries a long way in the relative quiet of the night.
Don't leave any litter/firescars or someone will keep their eye out for the next time you camp there.
This way no one gets upset and you go home having enjoyed a nice camp out leaving things exactly as they were.
If you bring attention to yourself, then someone who is probably already inclined to do so will make a phonecall as undoubtedly happened here.
Once the police officer is there you have to accept you are at her mercy really, but you've only yourselves to blame for that. Personally I wouldn't have accepted a caution for carrying a knife if I felt I was within the law to carry it but obviously he had his reasons.
Edit: I should just point out that I've only ever stealth camped out on land where I have lawfully been allowed to be, such as national parks or national trust land ( I am a member after all!), not on a private individual's land. I bet that opens up a whole new debate now
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I agree the officer had the right to arrest on SUSPICION for the above and a few other things. BUT a weapon of offence has to be proven that it was being carried to be used offensively. If i have a screwdriver in my pocket on the way to a job or whilst on the job its not an offensive weapon, if i have a screw driver in my pocket and i have just been caught braking into someones house then there is little chance i have it on my person incase i need to replace a faulty fuse whilst commiting a crime.
The lads started out on shakey grounds and were ill informed. Doesnt deserve a caution for carrying an offensive weapon taht will stick with him for years, maybe guilty of being an weapon
N
Nickelarse
Guest
First and foremost I would just like to clear a few things up, this may well be my first post but I did not join the forum purely to voice my grievances, I joined in 2010 but haven't posted anything.
It has been brought to my attention that the land we were camping on actually belonged to the local Church - hence the police getting involved, this was all unbeknown to me before we set up camp.
It has been brought to my attention that the land we were camping on actually belonged to the local Church - hence the police getting involved, this was all unbeknown to me before we set up camp.
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dont be perdantic its a turn of phrase
If they didn't have the landowners permission - which I assume they didn't otherwise the officer had no cause re the bowie knife they could be done for Armed trespass and very likely criminal damage. Hence the camp was illegal
Hi Nickelarse
I would advise taking note of prawsters post (number 56 on this thread ) as it has some good advise for future hassle free camps
Thanks for clearing up the permission side of things for the thread
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