Peace shattered
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Dave, I'm 40. This teenager thing isn't new you know! We weren't welcome in groups when I was growing up. Growing up in MK is a bit different to me though as I grew up in a pit village. There was a youth club one night a week- Thurdsay, and roller disco on a Sat morning- that's it. We grew up rabitting, ferreting, shooting messing around in parts of Sherwood Forest but it wasn't called bushcraft then it was camping! making dens etc. We didn't have axes so didn't cut down trees and we thought it wrong to light fires. We did all carry knifes though- SAKsWhen we were 14-15 girls came along too
I didn't grow up in MK, I grew up in Glasgow. We never got a chance to get out into the woods for that sort of stuff, cos our parents would have gone monkey poo on us. The girls thing was nice, but mostly had to happen at parties or in parks where we were exposed.
We had access to swimming pools, but swimming in a reservoir would have probably got us arrested "there's teenagers, get them an ASBO". I was never involved in graffitiing, but could see the art in some of it, I don't really mind it.
You say the youth of today has lots laid on, but I never saw any of it. As I said earlier, the youth centre was violent, we were skint as hell so no movies and you can only swim so much. I really wanted to go out and do things, but what are these activities laid on for us you mention? Sure the council does one or two big events a year, but those are for publicity, the rest of the year there's nowt.
I never took part in "Anti-Social Behaviour", however that didn't matter as soon as there were more than two of us in the same place, it was anti-social. Apparently socialising with your mates in public is ant-social!
People always say the youth of today are terrible (I believe Plato did too), but I feel like if people actually got to know the kids they are calling anti-social they'd realise they are wrong.
You obviously spend time and energy on your kids, but when the eldest hits 13-14-15-16 will you let him/her go off camping with his/her mates any day he/she likes? Teenagers are not afforded the same freedom to get out and about as children of 10 years old were in your generation.
I can happily say that out of all the kids I grew up riding with none have gone to jail, which in Glasgow, in a group of 30 or so males, with many unemployed, is quite a good record. Also if I'm incredibly un-PC I'll tell you that most of us were from poor families and a couple even had drug addict parents.
All of us have worked hard to get to where we are, even the unemployed ones work hard to find education and jobs. But in Glasgow there simply is a shortage of work, even for those who want it.
I would say that this is evidence of an above average level of values in modern society. We had a good group of mates, we stayed away from gangs, shunned violence and there was never any peer pressure to try drugs or drink.
I do understand where a lot of you guys are coming from, but I often feel that the older generation don't get us young'uns.
Dave,
you and everyone else has a right to the countryside!
The problem lies in the level of impact certain activities have on nature and other users.
Land ownership is not so black and white. Ownership, in my opinion, should be viewed as stewardship.
We all have a right to ecological good and services.
Just because one may have enough money to buy land does not negate my right to nature.
The EU Habitats Directive, in particulat site designation, may provide an interesting read.
I must say that my heart actually dropped a little when I read some of the posts on here.
Thanks,
Liam
you and everyone else has a right to the countryside!
The problem lies in the level of impact certain activities have on nature and other users.
Land ownership is not so black and white. Ownership, in my opinion, should be viewed as stewardship.
We all have a right to ecological good and services.
Just because one may have enough money to buy land does not negate my right to nature.
The EU Habitats Directive, in particulat site designation, may provide an interesting read.
I must say that my heart actually dropped a little when I read some of the posts on here.
Thanks,
Liam
I missed your post last night, sorry. It's always the same, either the track ends up useless or bulldozed! The security guards have gotten pretty bad now, had a few maglites thrown at me head and been ambushed a few times. Once they actually drove a van UP 3 stairs to try and catch us. Was insane!
Mini-motos can be a problem, I'm just trying to make the point that they may have exhausted their options elsewhere and have retreated to their current locale Also that there is never ANY excuse to booby trap trails, EVER!
Dave
Hi Guys
I'm new to the forum and after reading all the posts I can see it from both sides, I think that kids today are less respectful but I think that they are shown less respect also. When i was younger I lived in quite a close community where everybody knew everybody else and I think that this had an impact on the relationships between Kids and Adults. The media of late demonise children usually between the ages of 13 and 16 and portray them as the bane of society, I can't help thinking that this has a negative impact on the way that we view and react to children! So where we would normally say "its just kids being kids" as I remember a lot of people saying in my younger days now it is blown out of all proportion and all children are being blamed for everything that ANY child has done before them!!
In short i think that we need to consider our attitudes towards the youths of today and realise that there needs to be a more "give and take" attitude in all realms of society
Thanks
Dave
I'm new to the forum and after reading all the posts I can see it from both sides, I think that kids today are less respectful but I think that they are shown less respect also. When i was younger I lived in quite a close community where everybody knew everybody else and I think that this had an impact on the relationships between Kids and Adults. The media of late demonise children usually between the ages of 13 and 16 and portray them as the bane of society, I can't help thinking that this has a negative impact on the way that we view and react to children! So where we would normally say "its just kids being kids" as I remember a lot of people saying in my younger days now it is blown out of all proportion and all children are being blamed for everything that ANY child has done before them!!
In short i think that we need to consider our attitudes towards the youths of today and realise that there needs to be a more "give and take" attitude in all realms of society
Thanks
Dave
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But equally, nor is there an excuse to vandalise other peoples property (which land is) simply for these people to indulge an unneccesary activity.
The fact that a person does not have somewhere to drive their Motorbike at 150mph does not make doing it on the road okay. The fact that these individuals do not have a venue to practice their hobby in, does not make damaging someone elses land, putting law abiding users at risk etc. okay. They are breaking the law and should be prosecuted rather than injured I agree, but also any properly trained off road enthusiast also knows to walk the intended route to check for hazards prior to driving it. If these people haven't that basic facet of off road training, they shouldn't be allowed the bikes period.
Red
hiya guys now then having read all the posts in this thread i can honestly say i can see both sides of the argument. Now this partly the reason i got into bushcraft at the age of seventeen cos there was nowt to do and i was sick and tired of watching s**t tv cos most of my friends were all about going out and getting wasted and well i am not a big drinker yes i like getting drunk as much as the next man 2008 moot first night a prime example but not every week cos it just gets boring.
The thing is that i am a doer not a lasy dreamer and so i agree that the council should provide things for teenagers to do cos like dave i am 22 and found very little to do but i like him didnt turn to breaking the law. Now i also agree whole heartedly with red who once agaiin is the voice of reason who says if the bikers cant do it properly they shouldnt do it at all and certainly not on land that dont belong to them.
So my question is this if there is enough people who want to do a perticular pastime in a perticular area why do the council not provide for them cos its sounds to me as if in daves case that there would have been enough people tto have free track that bmxs and mountain bikers could have used and then there possibly wouldnt have been a problem. Yes i know there will always be the few who ruin it but shouldnt they be the ones to be brought to justice (whatever justice that might be) instead of the ones who are there to do what is in theory (sp) a legal activity and shouldnt the ones who are playing By the rules, (if thats the right terminolagy) be left alone.
drew
The thing is that i am a doer not a lasy dreamer and so i agree that the council should provide things for teenagers to do cos like dave i am 22 and found very little to do but i like him didnt turn to breaking the law. Now i also agree whole heartedly with red who once agaiin is the voice of reason who says if the bikers cant do it properly they shouldnt do it at all and certainly not on land that dont belong to them.
So my question is this if there is enough people who want to do a perticular pastime in a perticular area why do the council not provide for them cos its sounds to me as if in daves case that there would have been enough people tto have free track that bmxs and mountain bikers could have used and then there possibly wouldnt have been a problem. Yes i know there will always be the few who ruin it but shouldnt they be the ones to be brought to justice (whatever justice that might be) instead of the ones who are there to do what is in theory (sp) a legal activity and shouldnt the ones who are playing By the rules, (if thats the right terminolagy) be left alone.
drew
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i dont like to go around correcting peoples spelling cause it makes me seem arrogant but as you implied you were unsure about your spelling by the use of "(sp)" i just thought i'd clear it up for you, its spelt theory. also leagle is supposed to be legal. hope i've helped and please nobody think any less of me for this
ATB
TJ
ATB
TJ
cheers tjroots i will chage it now and thanks it means alot cos my english is carp
dunn thanks tj
dunn thanks tj
Unfortunately it seems as though we are now living in a broken society, where the ones who have the will and knowledge to fix it are a minority in number, and downtrodden by the masses of ignorance!
Sorry for the slow reply, been busy for a few days!
Fair point and you're right, I guess I just prefer trespass and vandalism to fighting and drinking in this situation.
That's true too, but people disguise booby traps and not everyone does walk the route first.
My group got caught out because the trails were EXACTLY as we'd left them the night before, and I mean no leaf turned type thing. I guess we'd got complacent and I wish we hadn't, but at the same time, camouflaged traps are completely out.
I don't think that we'll ever see eye to eye on this, but I hope you can understand that in a society where teenagers are marginalised and often turn to serious criminality, I prefer milder crimes like trespass to assault.
P.S. Also, I re-read my first post and I wanted to apologise for telling you that you didn't know what you were talking about. You simply have a different perspective and I was wrong to impeach your understanding of the issue at hand.
As my American friends say
Fair point and you're right, I guess I just prefer trespass and vandalism to fighting and drinking in this situation.
That's true too, but people disguise booby traps and not everyone does walk the route first.
My group got caught out because the trails were EXACTLY as we'd left them the night before, and I mean no leaf turned type thing. I guess we'd got complacent and I wish we hadn't, but at the same time, camouflaged traps are completely out.
I don't think that we'll ever see eye to eye on this, but I hope you can understand that in a society where teenagers are marginalised and often turn to serious criminality, I prefer milder crimes like trespass to assault.
P.S. Also, I re-read my first post and I wanted to apologise for telling you that you didn't know what you were talking about. You simply have a different perspective and I was wrong to impeach your understanding of the issue at hand.
As my American friends say
Very kind of you to say so. I suspect its different experience that colours our perceptions. My "default position" is "obey the law". I can have some sympathy for certain rule bending if someone is starving etc. but not to indulge a hobby.
A buddy of mine lost his farm - his home & livelihood a while ago. He ultimately defaulted on a mortgage for a few thousand and lost the place. Over previous years he had spent tens of thousands repairing damage, clearing litter, fixing land churn, replacing fences, walls and crops. All the damage was caused by "recreational trespassers" who thought they had a "right to enjoy" his land - but clearly felt no obligation to treat it well or even maintain it. He was trying to make a living and take care of his family. He was broken by those wanting to have fun, I cannot rationalise this being okay.
Before people say "he should have called the police", he did - many times. They tried to help. But on a remote farm where people turn up at odd hours at irregular intervals they are very limited as to the support they can give. Particularly where its a "civil matter" unless they can prove a given amount of damage is caused by a given individual (and they tried).
Hopefully that explains why I am vehemently opposed to excusing such acts and indeed opposed to unfettered access.
Red
That's a truly terrible story, it's a great shame and shouldn't have happened!
In my case, allow me to assure you that neither sets of jumps were on arable land.
About the default position on obeying the law, I used to be "the law's the law" on everything, and still am on many e.g. speeding.
BUT my frequent run ins with abuses of the law by both criminals and those who claim to enforce it, have degraded my trust in our judicial system. I think that it is a common feeling amongst gentlemen below the age of 30, that the police are not to be trusted due to victimisation.
Dave
Yes - many young people today have been given a warped sense of entitlement (from where, I'm not sure, but the phrase 'do-gooders' springs to mind). They 'know' their rights, but have little or no concept of their responsiblilties. All authority is questioned, including the authority of the community - when I were a lad, we were out of doors almost from dawn to dusk, but if the old lady down the village shouted at us to pack something in, then we listened, lest it get around the community.
He should've done what my mate does - set a bit of useless land aside, make a track with a few berms and jumps and charge them a tenner each to ride round all day.
Brilliant, thats just the kind of lateral thinking that helps everyone. Give your maye a slap on the back from me.
Actually it isn't. No offence but he didn't have any "useless land". He had carefully managed coppice land (destroyed by off roaders on two and four wheels), he had spring wheat (mistaken for grass and churned up). I could go on.
It really, really annoys me to hear what he, (a man working 90+ hours a week) should have done to accomodate people because they were bored. There is nothing that he "should have" to do to amuse people who carry out criminal activities. He "should" be able to make a living by working very hard.
Still, never mind eh? At least those who don't have to work that hard had their fun by breaking the law. Thats the main thing.
Red
It really, really annoys me to hear what he, (a man working 90+ hours a week) should have done to accomodate people because they were bored. There is nothing that he "should have" to do to amuse people who carry out criminal activities. He "should" be able to make a living by working very hard.
Still, never mind eh? At least those who don't have to work that hard had their fun by breaking the law. Thats the main thing.
Red
BR, I think Bushwacker may have been saying that your hard working friend could have made life a bit easier for himself by doing as his friend did. A small area, perhaps part of the wheat field or some set aside, could have earned him some easy money and reduced his overall work load. It may have sorted out his work life balance too.
I've seen too many farmers (mainly family) go under through trying to do to much. So I know what it feels like to watch hard work go to waste.
The point is not just to accomodate fun seekers but to diversify and take a load off by thinking between the lines.
One day I'll have my own land. If its near a city I'll be playing tricks like that. If you invite people to use parts of your land they'll be more likely to look after it. If you try and shut them out they may get resentful and careless. It's all about community.
I've seen too many farmers (mainly family) go under through trying to do to much. So I know what it feels like to watch hard work go to waste.
The point is not just to accomodate fun seekers but to diversify and take a load off by thinking between the lines.
One day I'll have my own land. If its near a city I'll be playing tricks like that. If you invite people to use parts of your land they'll be more likely to look after it. If you try and shut them out they may get resentful and careless. It's all about community.
