That won't work. I think you have to declare you are filming before it is permissable evidence.
Peace shattered
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That won't work. I think you have to declare you are filming before it is permissable evidence.
i will
the only other thing i could think of was landmines, but i didnt want to harm the wildlife
hello, as mentioned, our land access works pretty okay. But then again, we have a severely lower population density. I think that is a huge issue here as well. You have a lot more people wanting access to a significant smaller area of wild country side. And statistically you will then have a lot more bad apples.
I think we have the same social problems.
I think we have the same social problems.
Red, I normally respect what you have to say and have enjoyed many of your stickies. But here I'm afraid you are talking about an issue you simply do not understand.
I used to ride bmxs and mtbs a lot when I was younger and I came up against this situation more times than I care to remember, admittedly I had no motor on my bike but the issues are the same for anything with two wheels.
Race tracks are expensive, at the age of 13 I was working in a bike shop part time and any odd jobs I could rustle up to make enough money to keep my bike running, most of the time I was riding with a partially broken bike and prioritised repairs based upon potential inuries. I had zero spare money for tracks, which at that time cost at least £20 a day, that was my weeks wages and I needed them to fix my bike. There was also the money to get to the tracks in the middle of nowhere and the fact was that most of us didn't want to race, we just wanted to get up in the air on our bikes. For the record, race track jumps are completely different to dirt jumps and aren't really that useful for getting up in the air. The following is what happened when we tried to sort out a track of our own, the time-scale isn't exact but I remember the whole thing took about a year, please insert "about" in front of all timescales.
So the local riders, aged 13-30, got together, found a disused patch of land, found out who owned it, which turned out to be the council. First we had to get them to actually give us an appointment to arrange a meeting to discuss if the land was earmarked for anything, that took a month. Then once we found out it was truly unused and part of no plans we had to convince them that there were enough of us interested in using and maintaining it, a petition with 50 signatures of people over 18 was collected (parents were allowed to sign for unders, but only one signature per child) and evidence of similar schemes was presented. Counsellors and MPs were contacted and surgeries attended, but they didn't care because we couldn't vote. Two more months, leading us to 3 months since contact with the council and they agree that we can draw up plans to show them and come back in a month.
One month later the plans have been drawn up and we're back for our meeting, at which we're told to start building the jumps, but don't ride them, go away and find insurance companies or use a lawyer to come up with a disclaimer.
It's now 4 months since we've started our little project and it's the middle of winter, but we get down to it anyway. Those of us in school go home, then to the jumps, those of us who worked or were at uni came down on weekends.
A cubic metre of dry earth weighs about a tonne I believe, I'd estimate on average our jumps contained 4 or 5 cubic metres each and there were 20 of them, that's 100 tonnes of dry earth, not even considering drainage. We undertook this project in winter, on wet ground using whatever tools we could get, a lot of us used rusted old shovels without handles that were found on scrap heaps. There were about 15 of us who worked more than once a week, and we were determined and eager. Six weeks later we had finished roughing out the track and were ready to refine it.
I don't remember what day it was, but we came down and found the jumps gone and a lot of tread marks where they used to be. There was also a nice sign on the fence warning that vandalism would be prosecuted as would trespass, from the council. As you can imagine were were upset, angry and disappointed.
We called the older guys, who called the council, who said it was our fault for building without permission. Two weeks pass before we're allowed an "emergency meeting" at which we were not apologised to, despite providing the minutes in which they had agreed to allow us to build and a copy of the letter that they'd sent us telling us to get on with it in the meantime. They then got a bit hostile when we suggested that the diggers and drivers be sent in to help us get the roughing out re-done. That's 6 weeks work gone.
However there was hope, they were really impressed by the images of what we'd produced and agreed that we could start again by hand. But the dangerous gaps in the middle had to be filled in, I don't even want to think about how much that dirt totalled in weight. Two months later we finished the second version of our jumps and hadn't found an insurance company that would touch us. We weren't qualified to build the jumps, therefore they couldn't accept the risk!
Luckily we had found a nice lawyer who wrote us up an "airtight" disclaimer which we presented to the council, who seemed ok with it, though wanted to try for an insurance company. So we had to leave it for a few weeks til they found one and a meeting was scheduled for 3 weeks later.
That's 8 months three weeks people, to put up some mounds of earth to play on with our bikes. We were doing everything youth are supposed to: getting out in the fresh air, being creative, working as a team and staying out of mischief etc.
Come the meeting we're told that we're very lucky as they've got an insurance company for us, but the negotiations aren't done, come back in two weeks. So 9 months and a week into our great track building endeavour we go to a meeting where we're told that if 50 people use the track a year, they'll need £50 quid a year membership and £5 for each visit, for the guard and the insurance.
We explained we didn't have the money to spend, and that we'd sign the disclaimer but couldn't do the insurance. They said the legals would have to be consulted, come back in a month.
At some point before the next meeting we came down to find fencing all around our jumps and a locked gate. We called the older riders, who said we should bring it up at the next meeting. 10 months and one week in we walk out after having been told that even though the disclaimer is great, they feel that it would be reckless not to have the insurance and that since we wouldn't pay up any further activity at the jumps would be trespass and vandalism. But that they would leave the jumps up and let us try and sort insurance out again.
We continued to go at it, and it was about a 2 months later when we were riding past and saw a distinct lack of jumps on the land. They'd been bulldozed, but we didn't care any more. We'd found a secret patch of land where we could ride unimpeded, only £3.50's train ride away and were we going to ask permission? Where we ****!
The land is still derelict today and occasionally one of the younger riders gets all fired up and tries to sort something out, but it comes to nothing.
It's people like you that mean my mate can't ride any more or walk properly, someone set up fencing at the bottom of a landing and he broke a leg, smashed his knee and an elbow. He was wearing a helmet which probably saved his life, he was 16 when this happened and we had to get an ambulance 2 miles into our secret spot.
We never left litter, we never had fires and we never ever left glass about, because it might be us that landed on it! Also the less sign the better, because our jumps might stay undiscovered longer.
However some of the gentlemen from the local estate found our jumps and used them abusively, then some idiot put up the fencing and we didn't think to check for booby traps.
Tell me people, where would you have had us go? Is nature only for people who chop down trees and sleep under tarps? Does being a group of people who use an area make you guilty of all offences in that area? Should these offences, committed by others lead to a 16 year old boy not being able to walk properly?
Dave
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widu13
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dave,
I fully understand your frustration, but the authorities or us- the public, are not obliged to provide you with free "xyz" no matter what the activity. In England and Wales you cannot wildcamp. Do we expect places to be set up to facilitate that? Tracks, whether for motorized sport or otherwise have a large enviromental impact both on the the wildlife and on the actual ground.
A group of bushcrafters may get together and wildcamp- do they leave a sign of their occupation? Usually not (there are always a few exceptions) but may leave some made furniture or shelters. Do a group of youths (well intentioned or otherwise) make a mess- most definately most of the time. Can you hand on heart tell me that there is no litter at this place?
Now if there is litter in this secret place, who's going to clean it up? You? maybe, but you'll soon get fed up with cleaning other people's mess. So after you've got fed up with it who then- the landowner that didn't invite the group? My local official skate/BMX park about 50m x 25m has eight rubbish bins. Whilst walking the dog ,I can honestly say there is more rubbish on the floor than there is in the bins.
There's no free lunch in life. If you can't afford something, you know what? You do without. It's not your right to have these things supplied for you, nor is it your right to go and do what you want.
I fully understand your frustration, but the authorities or us- the public, are not obliged to provide you with free "xyz" no matter what the activity. In England and Wales you cannot wildcamp. Do we expect places to be set up to facilitate that? Tracks, whether for motorized sport or otherwise have a large enviromental impact both on the the wildlife and on the actual ground.
A group of bushcrafters may get together and wildcamp- do they leave a sign of their occupation? Usually not (there are always a few exceptions) but may leave some made furniture or shelters. Do a group of youths (well intentioned or otherwise) make a mess- most definately most of the time. Can you hand on heart tell me that there is no litter at this place?
Now if there is litter in this secret place, who's going to clean it up? You? maybe, but you'll soon get fed up with cleaning other people's mess. So after you've got fed up with it who then- the landowner that didn't invite the group? My local official skate/BMX park about 50m x 25m has eight rubbish bins. Whilst walking the dog ,I can honestly say there is more rubbish on the floor than there is in the bins.
There's no free lunch in life. If you can't afford something, you know what? You do without. It's not your right to have these things supplied for you, nor is it your right to go and do what you want.
You're right there's no obligation to provide anything. But don't do what most of the British public does, which is: provide playgrounds for young children but nothing for teenagers, then get upset when there's groups of teenagers hanging around doing nothing. There was a youth centre where I grew up, but it was over-crowded and constantly violent, and there wasn't anything to do there, so oddly enough we didn't go there much.
Then there's complaining about teenagers sitting in doors all day doing nothing, but as soon as we headed outside in groups of more than two people started treating us like criminals, that included the police.
If we rode in the city people told us to go to the country, in the country people told us to go away. So where were we meant to go? It was classic NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).
At least where I grew up, the council always said that any activities for youth would be supported if possible. As you can see, we didn't expect them to do the work for us, we checked if the land was available and we waited for their say-so to start building. Then through an internal error our work was destroyed, so we got on with it again. We simply wanted something, so we went about organising it, isn't that what you'd do?
If anything we would have saved the council money on maintenance of the site. Because running into litter on jumps is plain dangerous, we kept them clean and tidy. We also knew our jumps stood a better chance if litter free, so we essentially practiced leave no trace. Good jumps also need drainage which stopped the ground flooding, which it had been known to do previously.
As for wildlife, we were always as careful as we knew how, any tunnels were left alone and our jumps had more than one change in direction to avoid what looked like animal lairs.
I can hand on heart tell you that WE left no litter or mess, we didn't cut down trees and we didn't have fires. We were as angry as any of you to find litter at our track, because we then had to spend an hour cleaning before we could ride. It wasn't unknown to turn up and by the time everything was cleaned up and the jumps maintained it would be time to go home.
No fires were used because we knew that would draw attention to ourselves, and that was the last thing we wanted to do. Our jumps stayed secret because we didn't want people littering them and using them to camp, so that they would be ours for longer.
We were just like bushcrafters except we left jumps and they leave furniture.
Our motivation to ride was great enough that we DID clean up other people's litter, we did get fed up with it but regarded it as a necessary evil. I remember more than one time tidying up broken glass and thinking how much I'd like to get my hands on the people who did it.
At the end of my teenage years the council built us a skatepark, without consulting anyone as to design and it was unsurprisingly awful, but we used it because we had no alternative. We never littered, because it is dangerous, all it takes is a plastic bottle in the wrong place to break an arm. People with a high risk of crashing don't smash glass where they're going to fall.
Every evening people who didn't ride or skate turned up and started drinking. We had no right to refuse them access and would have got the **** kicked out of us if we'd tried. They made huge messes, we found condoms more than once, and threw empty bottles around for a laugh.
As you may have noticed, people who use an area tend to care for it, people who abuse it tend to destroy it. We were careful users and had fought tooth and nail for what we had, but there was no way we were going to clean up other people's mess if the council wasn't going to regulate access.
Yeah, we did without a lot, however what will your teenage children do with their free time? Everything we tried to do was foiled at every turn, no-one cared what we said and we simply wanted to ride our bikes. We cared for where we went, we didn't do any damage, we simply wanted a space to get on with our hobby and were happy to facilitate it ourselves.
Adults have jobs and families to occupy them, young children aren't allowed out so are kept busy by parents. But once you hit your teens and have to find your own entertainment, what are you meant to do?
I hope you re-consider your stance, you'd be shocked how responsible a bunch of teenagers can be with a little guidance.
Dave
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Dave,
It sounds to me like you had a tough time with your council. For which I sympathise. But its no excuse for law breaking and trespass. Riding motorised vehicles in areas where no permission has been granted is dangerous and illegal. The fact that its expensive to do so legally - and difficult to arrange - does not alter the legal facts or anti social nature of the offense.
For the record, I take as dim a view of illegal camping as I do of illegal motorcycling. Take a look at the fire in Chopwell woods for why
Red
It sounds to me like you had a tough time with your council. For which I sympathise. But its no excuse for law breaking and trespass. Riding motorised vehicles in areas where no permission has been granted is dangerous and illegal. The fact that its expensive to do so legally - and difficult to arrange - does not alter the legal facts or anti social nature of the offense.
For the record, I take as dim a view of illegal camping as I do of illegal motorcycling. Take a look at the fire in Chopwell woods for why
Red
Hi Red,
That's fair enough and your right, but at the same time what would you have had us do? Also for the record, as I said before, we were un-motorised just a bunch of teenagers on pushbikes.
While I'm at it: why is it so hard for people to accept that in any group it's the exception that causes problems?
Dave
That's fair enough and your right, but at the same time what would you have had us do? Also for the record, as I said before, we were un-motorised just a bunch of teenagers on pushbikes.
While I'm at it: why is it so hard for people to accept that in any group it's the exception that causes problems?
Dave
widu13
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dave, not being argumentative at all but why do these things have to be provided? Why is there this "you must provide for us mentality. What do you want us to do?" That's not for other people to think about it's for them to do. If they want to be treated like adults then suck it up and get on with it. What did I do as a teenager? I'm different I joined the Army at 16. You know what? when I came home on leave I had absolutely no wish to hang around with teenagers moaning about what there wasn't to do.
It's good to hear that you carefully cleared up the secret place, but I'm kind of saddened that others who had visited it had, as predicted; littered it. It's always the same- the many spoil for the few; which is exactly why there is this not in my backyard mentality.
I don't know the answer, but I know the difference between what's right and what's not.
It's good to hear that you carefully cleared up the secret place, but I'm kind of saddened that others who had visited it had, as predicted; littered it. It's always the same- the many spoil for the few; which is exactly why there is this not in my backyard mentality.
I don't know the answer, but I know the difference between what's right and what's not.
People of my vintage will remember what was laid on for us when we were young. The second word is "All"
We had no TV, no internet, no nothing but the days were not long enough for us.
It's all down to attitude and expectations.
Hi Widu,
That's fair enough, I'm actually 21 now, I'm drawing on how it was from 3-8 years ago. The "you must provide" mentality comes about because teenagers want to be independent, they want to get out and do something, as evidenced by them taking up any sport or game they can.
But they're not yet allowed to go and socialise in pubs, clubs or bars and outdoors activities have been removed from the realm of possibility because people are terrified of putting anything sharp near us, and anyway they most often can't get there without cars.
When I was a teenager I finished school at 1520, went home and did any homework and was out the house by 1630. I wanted to be independent of my parents, so I went to see my friends. However their parents and mine didn't like 5 teenage boys sitting around the house, so told us to go out and do something. However nothing was acceptable to society. If we were standing about talking we were "loitering" and "a danger to all decent people". If we went riding in town then we were vandals and bag snatchers, to be chased away and assaulted by security guards. If we wanted to get out into the country we were told we needed adult supervision. The only pass time available was football, and I don't like football.
As I don't know your age I can't comment on differences between your early teenage years and mine. But I was in a situation where I had a lot of energy, a will to be out doing things, but nowhere to go and nothing to do.
Basically, if you put people in a position where you take away their ability to provide legal entertainment for themselves and exclude them from what is provided for others, then you have a duty of care to provide something. Or if you do not provide anything you cannot complain when teenagers either sit around or break the law. Be that by drinking, trespass or vandalism.
I hope that clears it up a bit, I'm afraid the solvents in the lab are playing merry havoc with my mind and I'll look back later to try and make more sense.
Dave
P.S. Until people start being rude I will always consider this sort of thing a discussion between decent individuals. I'm actually really impressed by that adult way in which people interact on BCUK, a lot of forums aren't like that.
That's fair enough, I'm actually 21 now, I'm drawing on how it was from 3-8 years ago. The "you must provide" mentality comes about because teenagers want to be independent, they want to get out and do something, as evidenced by them taking up any sport or game they can.
But they're not yet allowed to go and socialise in pubs, clubs or bars and outdoors activities have been removed from the realm of possibility because people are terrified of putting anything sharp near us, and anyway they most often can't get there without cars.
When I was a teenager I finished school at 1520, went home and did any homework and was out the house by 1630. I wanted to be independent of my parents, so I went to see my friends. However their parents and mine didn't like 5 teenage boys sitting around the house, so told us to go out and do something. However nothing was acceptable to society. If we were standing about talking we were "loitering" and "a danger to all decent people". If we went riding in town then we were vandals and bag snatchers, to be chased away and assaulted by security guards. If we wanted to get out into the country we were told we needed adult supervision. The only pass time available was football, and I don't like football.
As I don't know your age I can't comment on differences between your early teenage years and mine. But I was in a situation where I had a lot of energy, a will to be out doing things, but nowhere to go and nothing to do.
Basically, if you put people in a position where you take away their ability to provide legal entertainment for themselves and exclude them from what is provided for others, then you have a duty of care to provide something. Or if you do not provide anything you cannot complain when teenagers either sit around or break the law. Be that by drinking, trespass or vandalism.
I hope that clears it up a bit, I'm afraid the solvents in the lab are playing merry havoc with my mind and I'll look back later to try and make more sense.
Dave
P.S. Until people start being rude I will always consider this sort of thing a discussion between decent individuals. I'm actually really impressed by that adult way in which people interact on BCUK, a lot of forums aren't like that.
When we moved into this house over twenty years ago, the council built a BMX course in the waste ground past the hayfield across the burn.
The kids loved it and all was well until fly tipper lorries started dumping building waste on the site. It got to the stage that the kids were getting badly hurt and more or less were stopped by their parents from going there. Don't see many BMX bikes around now.
Part of the council's remit is to provide leisure activity provision for all age groups.
Swimming pools are free for the under sixteens and retired, golf courses are available, nature reserves, country parks, that kind of thing. BMX courses are just really like grown up kids playgrounds.
Still don't think they're suitable for the minimotorbikes. There are specially designed courses for them. There's a new one about seven miles up the valley. I think there's a hire out facility there too.
cheers,
Toddy
The kids loved it and all was well until fly tipper lorries started dumping building waste on the site. It got to the stage that the kids were getting badly hurt and more or less were stopped by their parents from going there. Don't see many BMX bikes around now.
Part of the council's remit is to provide leisure activity provision for all age groups.
Swimming pools are free for the under sixteens and retired, golf courses are available, nature reserves, country parks, that kind of thing. BMX courses are just really like grown up kids playgrounds.
Still don't think they're suitable for the minimotorbikes. There are specially designed courses for them. There's a new one about seven miles up the valley. I think there's a hire out facility there too.
cheers,
Toddy
widu13
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dave, I'm 40. This teenager thing isn't new you know! We weren't welcome in groups when I was growing up. Growing up in MK is a bit different to me though as I grew up in a pit village. There was a youth club one night a week- Thurdsay, and roller disco on a Sat morning- that's it. We grew up rabitting, ferreting, shooting messing around in parts of Sherwood Forest but it wasn't called bushcraft then it was camping! making dens etc. We didn't have axes so didn't cut down trees and we thought it wrong to light fires. We did all carry knifes though- SAKs When we were 14-15 girls came along too
The was an old pill box on the edge of a plantation that regularly got graffitied inside (Not me I can't draw a stick man!) but when someone did it on the outside we were all outraged. Seems very minor looking back now, but that's how we were. Nearest swimming pool pool was 8 miles away, nearest coast 90 miles away but we swam in the reservoirs sometimes.
I do remember sitting around in a group at a rec talking rubbish and perhaps even smoking and playing on the roundabout but that's as near to anti social behaviour as it got. Different times? Yes maybe, but why have things progressed so much to the stage they are now? What's changed? The youth of today DOES have far more laid on than we did. It's not that where I grew up was small- the comprehensive had 1200 in which is big even today. IMHO it's more about the wrong attitude and nothing more.
As I say I've no idea as to the solution but I try impart my experiences into my kids. My eldest and middle kids (10 and 8) are mad on bushcraft and survival. I can give them the values but what they do with it is down to them. You were obviously given the right values, but how many of your friends weren't?
No magic wand here, I'm just trying to do my bit with my kids. I've had my rant now and I'm all played out. Hope this gives you an understanding of where I (and a few others I suspect) are coming from.
When we were 14-15 girls came along too The was an old pill box on the edge of a plantation that regularly got graffitied inside (Not me I can't draw a stick man!) but when someone did it on the outside we were all outraged. Seems very minor looking back now, but that's how we were. Nearest swimming pool pool was 8 miles away, nearest coast 90 miles away but we swam in the reservoirs sometimes.
I do remember sitting around in a group at a rec talking rubbish and perhaps even smoking and playing on the roundabout but that's as near to anti social behaviour as it got. Different times? Yes maybe, but why have things progressed so much to the stage they are now? What's changed? The youth of today DOES have far more laid on than we did. It's not that where I grew up was small- the comprehensive had 1200 in which is big even today. IMHO it's more about the wrong attitude and nothing more.
As I say I've no idea as to the solution but I try impart my experiences into my kids. My eldest and middle kids (10 and 8) are mad on bushcraft and survival. I can give them the values but what they do with it is down to them. You were obviously given the right values, but how many of your friends weren't?
No magic wand here, I'm just trying to do my bit with my kids. I've had my rant now and I'm all played out. Hope this gives you an understanding of where I (and a few others I suspect) are coming from.
dave i like how you and your friends handled your situation, you tried doing it legally then when that failed you did it less legally in a mature and responsible manner, i would have no problem with people like you biking in the woods near my house, in fact sounds like your group would be helpful with clearing up the litter. its the other people i have a problem with, the ones that vandalise the woodland and litter. I'm all for open access, i just wish that people would be more responsible.
Mountain bikers go up there and so do young kids on their BMXs. I have no problem with either, although the kids do leave a mess, it's not major.
For me, anyone who goes into public woods under their own power has as much right to be there as I do.
That does not apply to idiots driving motor vehicles (regardless of size) illegally.
One of my sons in law has a mate who owns his own wood and now again opens it up for fellow Landy addicts to play in. Shame for the flora and fauna but it's his wood and he gives it time to recover before he does it again.
I've met green laners on trail bikes and Land Rovers on legal mud roads and have never had any bother but if I met the same lads driving in my local wood I'd be straight onto the local Polis.
Hi Dave
I like your attitude and approach, try the legal way and get hammered by the man so go and do it anyway but in stealth mode.
I am 39 and have been through all the same bureaucratic BS you have encountered, I ride Skateboards, bmx's and MTB's and have done for 30 years, it was the same story 30 years ago NIMBY.
To all those who say you shouldn't expect to have things provided. How about swimming pools, golf courses, childrens playgrounds, public parks etc etc all funded by the public.
As for the problem of mini-motos, we have a big problem with them in my local area, chewing up the woods, my dog and I have come close to being run over a few times by the little sh*8s, they are very very careful near me now though! The problem is though, there is absolutely no where to take them legally and the parents who buy the things have no clue or interest in how they get used. The local plod are well aware of the problem but are obviously busy elsewhere racking up their quotas.
I like your attitude and approach, try the legal way and get hammered by the man so go and do it anyway but in stealth mode.
I am 39 and have been through all the same bureaucratic BS you have encountered, I ride Skateboards, bmx's and MTB's and have done for 30 years, it was the same story 30 years ago NIMBY.
To all those who say you shouldn't expect to have things provided. How about swimming pools, golf courses, childrens playgrounds, public parks etc etc all funded by the public.
As for the problem of mini-motos, we have a big problem with them in my local area, chewing up the woods, my dog and I have come close to being run over a few times by the little sh*8s, they are very very careful near me now though! The problem is though, there is absolutely no where to take them legally and the parents who buy the things have no clue or interest in how they get used. The local plod are well aware of the problem but are obviously busy elsewhere racking up their quotas.
Pasty, true about the quotas (LOL). You're right, there are no legal places to ride mini-motos, neither are their any places to legally drive tanks, or carry flick knives. You shouldn't be allowed to buy a mini-bike in the UK unless you can prove you have access to a track. Illegal use should be punished by a fine of no less than three times the value of the bike and confiscation and scraping of the bike used to commit the offence.
