If I'm going to be teleported somewhere can I not bring my rucksack?
Or better still the Defender with the canoe on roof and most of my gear in the back?
Lofty wiseman type survival pouch question
- Thread starter Tom89
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
If I'm going to be teleported somewhere can I not bring my rucksack?
Or better still the Defender with the canoe on roof and most of my gear in the back?
I think it's all down to different levels of preparedness, a belt and braces approach to life.
My minimum pocket kit is a pocket knife, will have it on me even in the house. Will get used every day (eating fruit, cooking at a female friends house who's kitchen knives are dull).
If out I'll have my keys at least and they've got a mini-champ SAK & a torch, pocket knife (unless somewhere inappropriate) & a wallet (try to keep emergency cash in there), info for an accident, and usually have odds & sods like a loupe, tissues, bit of cord, medication, lighter, couple of dog poo bags (even though I've no dog anymore handy to have), mobile, all sorts of things. Every jacket I own has a duplicated mini kit of stuff in the pockets.
Out for a walk, a set of bins may be added, water, maybe a small bag/satchel with more comprehensive kit.
Big walk, all my hill/bushcraft kit as appropriate to where I'm going and when.
It's all about building layers of comfort, a buffer zone of kit the further I am from home to cover the expected and unexpected. Whether it's in a pocket, tin, pouch, bag, rucksack or the full camping kit that lives in the car it doesn't matter how you carry it for me it's the having it. That and having skills and knowledge in my head make life better for me.
A tin is a good ide for some as it's all in one place and easy to grab, just depends on what's in it and the ability to be able to use them. I just don't have my stuff in a tin as I like things in certain pockets/places due to mild OCD.
My minimum pocket kit is a pocket knife, will have it on me even in the house. Will get used every day (eating fruit, cooking at a female friends house who's kitchen knives are dull).
If out I'll have my keys at least and they've got a mini-champ SAK & a torch, pocket knife (unless somewhere inappropriate) & a wallet (try to keep emergency cash in there), info for an accident, and usually have odds & sods like a loupe, tissues, bit of cord, medication, lighter, couple of dog poo bags (even though I've no dog anymore handy to have), mobile, all sorts of things. Every jacket I own has a duplicated mini kit of stuff in the pockets.
Out for a walk, a set of bins may be added, water, maybe a small bag/satchel with more comprehensive kit.
Big walk, all my hill/bushcraft kit as appropriate to where I'm going and when.
It's all about building layers of comfort, a buffer zone of kit the further I am from home to cover the expected and unexpected. Whether it's in a pocket, tin, pouch, bag, rucksack or the full camping kit that lives in the car it doesn't matter how you carry it for me it's the having it. That and having skills and knowledge in my head make life better for me.
A tin is a good ide for some as it's all in one place and easy to grab, just depends on what's in it and the ability to be able to use them. I just don't have my stuff in a tin as I like things in certain pockets/places due to mild OCD.
Last edited:
Don't fret about it LP, it amuses me greatly when I have read some of the comments that have been posted in reply to the OPs question and as previously mentioned "I hope it doesn't raise the usual comments" seems to have happened.
I found your comments/replies quite amusing that is all...
Just as someone earlier had found my comments/post amusing...
Opinions are of course like bottoms, everyone has them and a lot of them stink, but it doesn't stop them airing them in public even if they are founded on inaccurate information.
I don't Idolise JW, but I do admire his skill set, his humanity and willingness to sit and chat with me in his house, I wonder if many of the "well known" public bush craft instructors would be as willing? like how many of the folks on here have just popped around to Ray Mears house un-announced and been invited in for a cuppa and a chat?
I hope that when I pop around with a book a few friends I myself have had published he will have a good read and give some good honest feed-back, it will also give me chance to thank him for remembering to talk with others about Drewdunnrespect at the Bush craft show earlier in the year.
Don't take it personally...
Anyone know anything about a Peter Darman - I got left a THE SAS SURVIVAL HANDBOOK by an uncle that passed several years ago? THe format and picture styles are very similar and the info while a little more basic also has a few extras not in Lofty's book which give off a little more of a military feel.
A good back up kit can really pay dividends - even if it does not fully conform to the tin and pouch sets set out in Lofty's book.
On one memorable trip Royal Air Morrocco lost my rucksack between Casablanca and Marrakesh.
As this was at the start of a week long trip that doubled as staff selection and route selection for a forthcoming exped for young people it was annoying to say the least ... the chief instructor was thinking of binning the trip - and with it my chance of becoming a leader for the company!
As I travelled with a selection of basic kit in my hand luggage (medi kit, mini survival kit, change of clothing etc) and travelled in my hiking boots and was able to scrounge up the loan of a light weight sleeping bag liner, a down jacket and a bivvi bag , bowl and spoon the exped was able to go ahead. - OK I would have been warmer at night above the snow line if I had had a tent sleeping bag and ground mat but by faking up the essentials I was never in any danger.
The fact that my "go pack" was tailored to the environment - we could not buy more gear due to a religious holiday - then I had enough to allow the exped to go forward within safety boundaries when "a mobile, £20 and some McDonalds vouchers" would have been useless!
And I got the job!
On exped with that company as a Leader I always carried an adapted Survival Tin in my pocket as often we were in some very remote areas where it proved a very useful insurance policy.
On one notable day it was only the matches in my tin that allowed us to get the stoves lit after the few we had left in the kitchen kit and my Zippo were absolutely soaked.
Not a life threatening situation (we were returning to a road the next day) but definitely a moral saver!
On one memorable trip Royal Air Morrocco lost my rucksack between Casablanca and Marrakesh.
As this was at the start of a week long trip that doubled as staff selection and route selection for a forthcoming exped for young people it was annoying to say the least ... the chief instructor was thinking of binning the trip - and with it my chance of becoming a leader for the company!
As I travelled with a selection of basic kit in my hand luggage (medi kit, mini survival kit, change of clothing etc) and travelled in my hiking boots and was able to scrounge up the loan of a light weight sleeping bag liner, a down jacket and a bivvi bag , bowl and spoon the exped was able to go ahead. - OK I would have been warmer at night above the snow line if I had had a tent sleeping bag and ground mat but by faking up the essentials I was never in any danger.
The fact that my "go pack" was tailored to the environment - we could not buy more gear due to a religious holiday - then I had enough to allow the exped to go forward within safety boundaries when "a mobile, £20 and some McDonalds vouchers" would have been useless!
And I got the job!
On exped with that company as a Leader I always carried an adapted Survival Tin in my pocket as often we were in some very remote areas where it proved a very useful insurance policy.
On one notable day it was only the matches in my tin that allowed us to get the stoves lit after the few we had left in the kitchen kit and my Zippo were absolutely soaked.
Not a life threatening situation (we were returning to a road the next day) but definitely a moral saver!
True. I have heard Lofty quoted saying that. And you can say it's a Military Survival manual as well and that would be true. You can say it's a survival manual as well, also true.
But when you look at it a bit deeper Lofty's story (about 6.13 in the link below) it starts with him being fed by the Iban (9.22). What they were feeding him with was civilian bushcraft techniques. (from the point of view of survival being about staying alive long enough to get out of the Wilderness and Bushcraft being about living indefinitely in the Wilderness)
That makes anything not kit based or SAR based in the book "civilian bushcraft" as most of it is learned from civilian tribes (as I understand it) In my mind it's one of the great bushcraft books and possibly that's part of it's appeal as much as the SAS title.
I didn't post to split hairs on that though, I was wondering if you could ask about the tin, as there is a lot of implication that the tin is military in application the way I'm reading this thread, but in the Trueways video you see civilians being trained and part of that is the use of the tin and being told to carry it at all times including going ballroom dancing. You mentioned in another thread that Lofty said people don't understand the concept, so I would appreciate hearing the concept. I was going to ask at Q&A at the Bushcraft Show but he started that by saying "Before anyone asks, I don't like the short fat one and I think the other one is dangerous". There was a laugh, a short silence and then suddenly Q&A was over.
[video=youtube;gNaytnjFbt8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNaytnjFbt8[/video]
Well you call them civilian tribes, that's one way of looking at it I guess, As with any techniques we learn it comes from somewhere, and the best place to learn something for use in a particular environment is to learn it from the natives, So I would say that the techniques applied in the book by those being taught by Lofty were techniques he learnt from the best people available, and he went to them rather than them coming to him. It is after all the course book that he wrote to teach others how to live in other peoples environments, it doesn't make a particular section of the course more of a civilian one because the information was learnt from a civilian or native. Can I ask what would be your interpretation of the difference between Civilian and Native? In a lot of the job aspects of a trooper they look more like the natives in some countries rather than soldiers, so adopting their methods is a very good technique for survival.
The simple answer is that "The SAS Survival handbook" wass the training manual written by the Chief Survival Instructor to teach to the Troopers on his courses. Then he retired and 30 years on John still teaches people the knowledge he taught soldiers, except now they are civilians wanting to learn rather than soldiers being told what to learn, these people are paying him to teach them how to survive a bimble in the woods (figure of speech) rather than in possible enemy territories which is where the troopers were likely to be. So he has adapted both the more recent book and his teaching methods for the market he is dealing with.
I'll try and take a wander over to his place tomorrow evening (hope he's in) and see what I can find out...Maybe even persuade him to sign up and answer a few questions for those who might be interested. Otherwise I'll just take note book and pencil and take a few notes.
The simple answer is that "The SAS Survival handbook" wass the training manual written by the Chief Survival Instructor to teach to the Troopers on his courses. Then he retired and 30 years on John still teaches people the knowledge he taught soldiers, except now they are civilians wanting to learn rather than soldiers being told what to learn, these people are paying him to teach them how to survive a bimble in the woods (figure of speech) rather than in possible enemy territories which is where the troopers were likely to be. So he has adapted both the more recent book and his teaching methods for the market he is dealing with.
I'll try and take a wander over to his place tomorrow evening (hope he's in) and see what I can find out...Maybe even persuade him to sign up and answer a few questions for those who might be interested. Otherwise I'll just take note book and pencil and take a few notes.
Sure but please understand that it is a distinction that may only make sense in the context of my interpretation of this conversation of the book being a "Miltary" book and is not something I have thought a lot about before this thread.
Miltary/Soldier = Involved in fighting a war/conflict.
Civilian = Not involved in fighting a war/conflict.
Native = Someone who is on their home turf.
So a VC during the vietnam war would be a Native Soldier, wheras a non VC would be a Native Civilian. Then you have Non-Native Soldiers.
In terms of Activity perhaps
Miltary Activity = one purely for fighting.
Civilian Activity = one used for living.
So a solider needs to eat, drink (and take care of the other end) and take their mind off things on down time, you could consider those civilian activities (although done in a miltary style) because those things need to be done for non-Military activities as well.
It's not a hard and fast definition, and maybe never can be because there is the huge overlap i.e. a solider is a person and needs to live like any other person regardless of what else they are doing.
But it should give you an idea of where I am pointing and why I would call the skills mentioned Civilian Bushcraft. As you point to, if I am following correctly, there would also be Miltary Bushcraft and as you point to both would come under the term "Native Bushcraft". But it's probably a lot more like a Venn diagram than a map.
As a solider needs to live and civilian needs to live then any manual about living can be accurately described as "military manual" because it is written for and issued to soliders. But to say it is no use to civilians or not for them is maybe a step too far given the common content.
I don't think I have said it is useless to civilians? I think I said it was a manual written for soldiers primarily rather than for civilians. Written and published are different things are they not.
Sorry. No you didn't. I'm a bit short of time so, in the way I have phrased that, I've unintentionally exaggerted the positions it looked to me were being taken.
Last edited:
I'm sat in Costa having a light frothy one with Lofty and he says if he knew that there'd be a minor disagreement between two or three bcuk members, then he'd have never bothered writing that book.
Anyway, must dash I'm off to meet Les Hiddins at KFC, to see if there's anything tasty they've thrown in the bins!
Anyway, must dash I'm off to meet Les Hiddins at KFC, to see if there's anything tasty they've thrown in the bins!
I had a pint and a burger in Wetherspoon's with Ray Mears last night, he can't see what all the fuss is about. Bluffer give my regards to Les and remind him its curry night at my place on Friday and not to be late this time.
Aww come Rik it's not Les's fault he's always late he has to wait for the AA to pick up his Landie all the time.
Forgive me but I hope this thread isn't too ancient to reply to. I found it while searching for threads about the iceman of the Alps. I'd like to add a few comments.
I am regularly thrashed for suggesting that things happen that you need to be prepared for but unlike most "prepper" situtations, they will (usually) be the same things that have happened before. Floods, falls, tornados, cyclones, fires, earthquakes, snow storms, cuts, scratches, sick to the stomach, insect bites, power outages, low water pressure and parking tickets. Some can be fatal or can cause serious property loss while the rest merely take all the fun out of everything. Some can happen at home, some in the woods or anywhere outside and some in places where in spite of common sense we choose to build our homes or park our cars. Others, like power outages, are totally unpredictable but you've probably experienced before. I am ridiculed for suggesting an approach to being prepared based on such likely events rather than on wild animal attacks, home invasions or North Koreans swarming, all of which are possible. Some events are far more likely than others and some are more likely in some places than in others. Floods in Denver would be as unusual as a blizzard in New Orleans, though the opposite is not. So what would you put in a survival tin to cope with those things?
I have no idea and I am sometimes amused at the concept. However, I look around me and find that I have "survival" items everywhere, although I don't think of them like that. There is a possibility that I could have a flat tire on my car but I don't carry a lug wrench with me everywhere. It stays in the car, along with a host of other possibly useful items, like a blanket, more tools (very specific tools, too, because I know what goes wrong) and so forth. My lunch box, which is an insulated zippered bag, has a few "survival" items, including hand balm, a Swiss Army-type knife (to date unused), a small container of aspirin (used frequently), and a knife, fork and spoon set (also used frequently). My lunch is also in there, too. In my other bag that I also carry there is a flashlight, spare bulb, spare shoe laces, a little "totes" gadget that someone gave me that has tweezers and things, a comb and extra handkerchiefs. Of all that stuff, I regularly take out the handkerchiefs and sometimes the flashlight. In my pocket is a pocket knife that has one blade and cost four dollars. I don't use it very often because there's a kitchen here at work with all kinds of knives and my desk had a knife in it when I got here. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I have all that stuff, mostly unusued.
So, what's to worry about? Things still happen, or at least to me they do. I don't knock anyone who does anything to be prepared but I laugh at the attitude and the theory. You hear talk about "but out bags," but I ain't going nowhere. But what about the woods?
I do worry about serious injury in the woods a little. Why, because I've had at least one bad fall in the woods that could have been very serious and resulting in a broken bone. I did chip a bone in a fall at home once but that just shows you that you're not much safer at home--or in much more danger in the woods. I do see bears in the woods but frankly I've never heard of a bear attack in my neck of the woods, nor snakebite either. Of course, everything is different when you travel overseas but the last time I did that I was in the U.K.
A word also about manuals. Usually field manuals come with an instructor when you are taking some training. More likely you, the trainee, will never see the manual, although if you're lucky, you might get a handout. But who reads manuals anyway? Basic? Sure, it's basic. But by the time you learn a little and manage to get to a higher level of training, you start to realize the basic stuff is real and necessary and is to be taken seriously.
I am regularly thrashed for suggesting that things happen that you need to be prepared for but unlike most "prepper" situtations, they will (usually) be the same things that have happened before. Floods, falls, tornados, cyclones, fires, earthquakes, snow storms, cuts, scratches, sick to the stomach, insect bites, power outages, low water pressure and parking tickets. Some can be fatal or can cause serious property loss while the rest merely take all the fun out of everything. Some can happen at home, some in the woods or anywhere outside and some in places where in spite of common sense we choose to build our homes or park our cars. Others, like power outages, are totally unpredictable but you've probably experienced before. I am ridiculed for suggesting an approach to being prepared based on such likely events rather than on wild animal attacks, home invasions or North Koreans swarming, all of which are possible. Some events are far more likely than others and some are more likely in some places than in others. Floods in Denver would be as unusual as a blizzard in New Orleans, though the opposite is not. So what would you put in a survival tin to cope with those things?
I have no idea and I am sometimes amused at the concept. However, I look around me and find that I have "survival" items everywhere, although I don't think of them like that. There is a possibility that I could have a flat tire on my car but I don't carry a lug wrench with me everywhere. It stays in the car, along with a host of other possibly useful items, like a blanket, more tools (very specific tools, too, because I know what goes wrong) and so forth. My lunch box, which is an insulated zippered bag, has a few "survival" items, including hand balm, a Swiss Army-type knife (to date unused), a small container of aspirin (used frequently), and a knife, fork and spoon set (also used frequently). My lunch is also in there, too. In my other bag that I also carry there is a flashlight, spare bulb, spare shoe laces, a little "totes" gadget that someone gave me that has tweezers and things, a comb and extra handkerchiefs. Of all that stuff, I regularly take out the handkerchiefs and sometimes the flashlight. In my pocket is a pocket knife that has one blade and cost four dollars. I don't use it very often because there's a kitchen here at work with all kinds of knives and my desk had a knife in it when I got here. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I have all that stuff, mostly unusued.
So, what's to worry about? Things still happen, or at least to me they do. I don't knock anyone who does anything to be prepared but I laugh at the attitude and the theory. You hear talk about "but out bags," but I ain't going nowhere. But what about the woods?
I do worry about serious injury in the woods a little. Why, because I've had at least one bad fall in the woods that could have been very serious and resulting in a broken bone. I did chip a bone in a fall at home once but that just shows you that you're not much safer at home--or in much more danger in the woods. I do see bears in the woods but frankly I've never heard of a bear attack in my neck of the woods, nor snakebite either. Of course, everything is different when you travel overseas but the last time I did that I was in the U.K.
A word also about manuals. Usually field manuals come with an instructor when you are taking some training. More likely you, the trainee, will never see the manual, although if you're lucky, you might get a handout. But who reads manuals anyway? Basic? Sure, it's basic. But by the time you learn a little and manage to get to a higher level of training, you start to realize the basic stuff is real and necessary and is to be taken seriously.
