International Men's Day.

[Wander]

That sounded combative...

It's OK - I didn't take it that way.
I thought you were being rhetorical.

 

[Wander]

Find your nearest group

Find your nearest Andy’s man club. We have over 100 free support groups nationwide, running every Monday from 7PM except bank holidays.

andysmanclub.co.uk

I think that would be a more constructive way of turning this discussion around from arguing about cock wombles such as Andrew Tate - resources to help support men's health (mental and physical).
Let's go with that.

Home | Men's Sheds Association | UKMSA

We support Men's Sheds Association in the UK. Men's Sheds are community workshops where men can create converse and connect.

menssheds.org.uk

 

[William_Montgomery]

He's actually traveled through the challenges that can come from social media, internet etc quite well, he didn't have a phone until he went to Uni and he often says how good that was. He's very aware of the influence the modern world has on his peers and younger kids, he's developed strategies to stop himself from getting caught up in online stuff, like leaving his phone in the kitchen and turning it off completely when he's got to focus on tasks. He focuses on using tech, social media, apps etc as tools that he controls. He's generally focused on what he can control in his life and works hard at not letting other people, companies, social media etc having control of it. At 24 he's got a masters in Physics and a Masters in AI and technology so he's not shy of the internet and tech.
My two youngest daughters (youngest of 5) on the other hand have a much harder time balancing online and life and we're often perceived as hard nosed on our approach to their use of tech and how they want to spend their time.
A big shift seems to be that communication is via apps and messages (says he that's typing on a forum that he created! ) is the only way to go, and it's 'generally' shallow, and the pursuit of truth, reality and work has turned into opinion and feelings. There's a lot of damage done by the online world, how it works and manipulates... But hey, I'm starting to get political so I'll leave it at that

It's good to hear an account of someone with a healthy control over the online world. I expect as a parent today it's no easy job to establish that balance. It seems the technological gap between the generations is at an all time high, and I'm sure that presents some pretty unique challenges.

Forums generally seem to be a much more productive version of social media. Perhaps there is a level of accountability that doesn't exist within the mayhem of Twitter, etc.

 

[William_Montgomery]

As to controversy, it wasn't me who first brought some controversial personalities into this thread, I was reacting to what was said. If that is wrong then perhaps this thread had already moved that way and we all should have moved back to the original topic. I'm as guilty as anyone on here at reacting to things i disagree with.

To be fair, I only mentioned Peterson, Rogan and Goggins, and it wasn't with any motivation to stir up a storm. Just that, in my opinion, they have most likely turned many young men away from prison and suicide.

I suspect we probably agree on more than we disagree on. Shall we put out a virtual hand and shake on it?

 

[Stew]

That when a male makes the decision there is less time to de-escalate the crisis. Associated with that statistic is the fact that a male is less likely to announce the decision - they are more inclined to silently make the decision and carry it out.
This makes preventing male suicide more difficult and highlights the need to do something to stop them getting in that situation in the first place.


You know what, I don't know.
I'm sure it could easily be found.

Not by me - I couldn’t even see the men/24 hour stat.

 

[Broch]

Not by me - I couldn’t even see the men/24 hour stat.

There's a lot of info here and other pages of the same research site:

Duration of Suicidal Crises

While some suicides are deliberative and involve careful planning, many appear to have been hastily decided-upon and to involve little or no planning. Chronic, underlying risk factors such as subst…

www.hsph.harvard.edu

The 24 hours is since the event that triggers; it appears that most suicides take place in 5 minutes from deciding to. You have to look at other pages to see comparisons of genders but it does not tell us a timing difference that I have found so far.

Edit: I confess, I'm not comfortable going into this level of detail on the subject on an open forum. If people want me to edit out that link I will.

 

[Stew]

Thanks.

Needs some deeper reading tomorrow.

 

[TeeDee]

For those that are interested in the origins of the term Toxic Masculinity - not wishing to twist anyones knicker elastic.

Also suggest reading the comments under the YT clip.

 

[TeeDee]

 

[Brizzlebush]

To add to the list of men's groups:

https://mankindprojectuki.org/

Dudes and dogs

 

[William_Montgomery]

For those that are interested in the origins of the term Toxic Masculinity - not wishing to twist anyones knicker elastic.

Also suggest reading the comments under the YT clip.

I recall he had a good conversation with Douglas Murray, touching on similar stuff.

 

[William_Montgomery]

 

[Kav]

Men’s drumming circles were big in California a few years past. I came on one on the beach, illegal campfire in the center. It was the mutual grooming that killed it for me. Ticks are so bad people are encountering them there now!

 

[santaman2000]

Is that a helpful/conducive way to behave in a relationship though? And is one actually “talking it through” at the pub or numbing the pain with alcohol?

I think 1 pint is less "numbing the pain" and more "about lubricating the conversation." And yes, unwinding from the day's tensions at the pub instead of dragging your problems home is probably very good for the relationship.

 

[santaman2000]

I am going to put aside my duelling sword and put my sociologists hat on for a moment. "toxic masculinity" is not about blokes in sheds, or even my late lamented dad complaining to the pub that the barmaids were allowed to wear trousers, it is the laddish culture where the kids have to shank anybody their age from another estate who dares to cross the road. It is this bizarre Incel culture you may have read about that has infected the internet. Stealing cars and setting fire to them, that sort of thing.......

I'm sorta in agreement with you. However I'm unsure of which is causal and which is effect. Growing up in the 60s and 70s boys usually had fathers influencing their lives: even if their parents had separated or divorced, they both continued to help with the children (so the male role model was still respected and expected) Also boys and girls normally played sports (but to be honest back then they didn't take was performance enhancing drugs) Boys often got into schoolyard fights as a rite of passage. Sometimes the teachers would punish them but sometimes teachers would take them to the gym and let them put on boxing gloves and work off their anger. But that was usually the worst of the violence. Compare that today where students are punished (even suspended or expelled) for using "violent" words. That seems to have led to students repressing their aggression until it explodes in the modern violence you describe or even with gunfire on campus.

 

[santaman2000]

If he is found guilty of rape and human trafficking then, yes, I DO think he should be locked up.
Don't you?........

The "appropriate" punishment for rape should be capital punishment.

 

[santaman2000]

When my peers returned the BIGGEST rejection came from traditional groups like the VFW and AL ‘ You lost your war, are scruffy hippies etc’ Hollywierd cashed in with Chuckie Norisk and Rumble WINNING. Bob deNiro came home in full dress uniform andBEARD, Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Whenever with two conscientious objectors; Harrison Ford and Martin Sheen. There was even a Biker Film with a special unit of Hell’s Angels riding HDs equipped with grenade launchers , Ma Dueces and lots of bikini clad Vietnamese girls.
25-50% of our homeless and prison population are vets.
Ah, but today some kid says he’s ‘ thinking of enlisting’ and is showered with ‘Thankyou for your service’ and watch out for the crazy guy digging for fries in the dustbin behind your job at McDs’
And oh, we give discounts to active service now.
Attitudes haven’t changed one bit.
Marketing just changed the focus.

Mostly I saw the opposite. The traditional veterans groups like VFW and AL were begging Vietnam vets to join because their molder members were dying off from old age. The younger vets (my generation) just generally showed no interest. Fortunately that changed in the 1980s.


Regarding the ratio of vets among the homeless is also a bit of a problem. It's true that 25%-50% of the homeless "CLAIM" to be vets but that usually turns out to be a case of stolen valor (impersonating a vet to obtain discounts, sympathy, or some perk) Media coverage also loves playing to this view and ignores successful vets. It really irritates me when the media paints us in this light. Not every servicemember I knew over my career succeeded in return to civilian life, but the vast majority did so and indeed prospered largely because of their service and what they learned from it.

 

[Kav]

The tradition groups were in fact hostile at first. They became welcoming when, as stated numbers fell ( try to find your grandfathers moose, odd fellows. Etc lodge) and the political war view shifted.
I volunteer for a non profit veterans assistance organization. There are con artists in every walk of life; Congress host to a three ringed vaudeville show currently.
I’ve encountered my share of fakes and people ( lots of cooks) who
Turn a simple, honorable DD214 into The Audey Murphy movie.
But the numbers are extremely high
and hostility from ‘successful’ vets
A heartbeat and paycheck away from a car, motel voucher or freeway underpass. Btdt

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

Having recently being in a couple situations where I nearly had my off switch flicked a couple times, I've decided to try and pursue a different direction in life. Words and definitions are somewhat meaningless to me. If you want to label me anything, I'd prefer it was true and accurate to who I am, which as far as I lead myself to believe, is a suspicious of those I don't know, loyal to those I care about, and protective over anyone in my "tribe".. above all that, call me whatever you like, just remember that mislabelling people won't encourage them to your way of thinking and spending huge amounts of mental energy on battles that really don't make a difference isn't wise.

Wish you all well.

 

[santaman2000]

The tradition groups were in fact hostile at first. They became welcoming when, as stated numbers fell ( try to find your grandfathers moose, odd fellows. Etc lodge) and the political war view shifted.
I volunteer for a non profit veterans assistance organization. There are con artists in every walk of life; Congress host to a three ringed vaudeville show currently.
I’ve encountered my share of fakes and people ( lots of cooks) who
Turn a simple, honorable DD214 into The Audey Murphy movie.
But the numbers are extremely high
and hostility from ‘successful’ vets
A heartbeat and paycheck away from a car, motel voucher or freeway underpass. Btdt

Yeah, there are always some that are a heartbeat and a paycheck away from failure. That said, they arent among what I meant by "successful." the majority that I knew went for civil service jobs, highly skilled trades, back to school for a free education or training courtesy of their GI benefits, back home and into the family business, or quite often started their own companies (FedEx being one of the most prominent)