International Men's Day.

[Chris]

I suppose it's become hard to discuss one without the other, as there seems to be a strong link between the problems facing young men and those subjects deemed contentious.
Hopefully it can be discussed reasonably and within a relevant context.

Social media has a lot to answer for. I still think it’s an unspoken mental health crisis that will be talked about more in the coming decades.

I really do not envy the generations who are growing up after me - I’m in my mid 30s and just missed smart phones and Facebook at school. Thank heavens.

It must be incredibly difficult for young people trying to work out who they are and what is normal when they get bombarded with all the nonsense spouted online, information presented as fact which is far from it and the very carefully stage managed and idealistic images of lives of others being presented to them as ‘normal’.

 

[GNJC]

I suppose it's become hard to discuss one without the other, as there seems to be a strong link between the problems facing young men and those subjects deemed contentious.
Hopefully it can be discussed reasonably and within a relevant context.

Agree completely; everything should be open for discussion, and everyone should be able to add his view, provided there are no ad hominem attacks or obvious deliberate unpleasantness.

 

[William_Montgomery]

As often seems to be the case now, a simple answer to a difficult question is the most dominant mindset.
In terms of male suicide, I've rarely come across any institution or organisation that addresses anything other than the platitudes of 'discussing mental health in a safe environment' and the ever present 'challenging societal expectations'. Perhaps we should be encouraging young men to live up to those expectations, rather than constantly trying to destroy them. As for discussing mental health, I'm not overly convinced there is a mental health crises, more that young men are constantly being told that there is something wrong with the way they are, that there is no longer a place for them in society.

When I've seen improvements in people I personally know, people drawn into that black hole, it pretty much always boils down to a dramatic change in lifestyle, and it always includes more responsibility and with it, an increased sense of purpose.

On an individual basis, of course we're all different and there isn't a single solution to anything so complex. But, generally speaking, telling young men that society cares about them whilst simultaneously destroying everything they stand for doesn't seem to be working.

 

[nigelp]

But, generally speaking, telling young men that society cares about them whilst simultaneously destroying everything they stand for doesn't seem to be working.

You should add that is your opinion, or viewpoint rather than it being a ‘but, generally speaking’.

Maybe that’s framed by what you have seen, have experienced or the media and information you consume to be informed. My son is nearly 15 and I can say that he and his peers are far less concerned about the issues you, I and others raise.

I would add that your fears and ideas don’t relate to me and my life either. That’s not to say what you think on the topic is invalid but they are you just your opinions rather than being ‘generally speaking’.

Your fears and apprehensions are not my sons, he has grown up in different generation to you and I. Most are well equipped for the journey they will make into becoming young men.

Providing support to young men and allowing space for them to discuss mental health issues, how the feel and how they want to shape their lives is fine, if they want to. Rather than creating crisis or diminishing them as ‘men’ it provides them with confidence as adults to talk about what makes them anxious and affects their wellbeing. Again that is choice. Nether you nor I have the right to tell them how to shape their future or make our issues, theirs.

That in my view is the corner stone of preventing male suicide; not pretending things are fine, not having to man up or pretend you fit in with your male peers when you don’t. If you are feeling mentally fragile. Talk to someone and seek help - the stigma around mental health and illness is still so prevalent still, especially with men seeking help.

Back to the OP @TeeDee started.

If you are a man and need to seek professional help, have a chat or make life style changes to improve your mental health, go and do it now!

 

[GNJC]

You should add that is your opinion, or viewpoint rather than it being a ‘but, generally speaking’.

Maybe that’s framed by what you have seen, have experienced or the media and information you consume to be informed. My son is nearly 15 and I can say that he and his peers are far less concerned about the issues you, I and others raise.

I would add that your fears and ideas don’t relate to me and my life either. That’s not to say what you think on the topic is invalid but they are you just your opinions rather than being ‘generally speaking’.

Your fears and apprehensions are not my sons, he has grown up in different generation to you and I. Most are well equipped for the journey they will make into becoming young men.

Providing support to young men and allowing space for them to discuss mental health issues, how the feel and how they want to shape their lives is fine, if they want to. Rather than creating crisis or diminishing them as ‘men’ it provides them with confidence as adults to talk about what makes them anxious and affects their wellbeing. Again that is choice. Nether you nor I have the right to tell them how to shape their future or make our issues, theirs.

That in my view is the corner stone of preventing male suicide; not pretending things are fine, not having to man up or pretend you fit in with your male peers when you don’t. If you are feeling mentally fragile. Talk to someone and seek help - the stigma around mental health and illness is still so prevalent still, especially with men seeking help.

Back to the OP @TeeDee started.

If you are a man and need to seek professional help, have a chat or make life style changes to improve your mental health then go, and do it now!

We agree entirely in the importance of anyone having a problem recognising it and addressing it appropriately. However, a perusal of the available statistics reveals a clear and steady increase in suicide, particularly male, in the latter part of the last century.

You may well question some of what I and others claim or infer, but your mention of the media is important, it has been and is a key part of society, and far from always a positive one. A mention of the pervasion of the educational establishment, had you chosen to make one would also have been pertinent.

It is a cliche, but nonetheless true, that prevention is better than cure; however something proffered as a 'cure' for one ill may itself be harmful...

 

[nigelp]

We agree in principal about the importance of the subject. We will have to agree to disagree about the wider aspects of the debate. If for no other reason than it decreases stress!

 

[William_Montgomery]

You should add that is your opinion, or viewpoint rather than it being a ‘but, generally speaking’.

Maybe that’s framed by what you have seen, have experienced or the media and information you consume to be informed. My son is nearly 15 and I can say that he and his peers are far less concerned about the issues you, I and others raise.

I would add that your fears and ideas don’t relate to me and my life either. That’s not to say what you think on the topic is invalid but they are you just your opinions rather than being ‘generally speaking’.

Your fears and apprehensions are not my sons, he has grown up in different generation to you and I. Most are well equipped for the journey they will make into becoming young men.

Providing support to young men and allowing space for them to discuss mental health issues, how the feel and how they want to shape their lives is fine, if they want to. Rather than creating crisis or diminishing them as ‘men’ it provides them with confidence as adults to talk about what makes them anxious and affects their wellbeing. Again that is choice. Nether you nor I have the right to tell them how to shape their future or make our issues, theirs.

That in my view is the corner stone of preventing male suicide; not pretending things are fine, not having to man up or pretend you fit in with your male peers when you don’t. If you are feeling mentally fragile. Talk to someone and seek help - the stigma around mental health and illness is still so prevalent still, especially with men seeking help.

Back to the OP @TeeDee started.

If you are a man and need to seek professional help, have a chat or make life style changes to improve your mental health then go, and do it now!

Cheers, Nigel.

The fact that your son is confident and feels well equipped for the world is great, I am truly pleased to hear it and I admire any father who can say that. Unfortunately there are many young men who perhaps don't have that solid family structure and face a much lonlier path to adulthood. I'm not sure specifically how fatherlessness ties in to the suicide rate, though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a steady link between the two.

It is based on my personal experience interacting with others. I would also agree with what @GNJC says that the media and educational system is often far from a positive influence in that regard.

I would definitely agree, there are many problems where talking things over and getting another perspective can be incredibly useful. No doubt about it. Personally I've never experienced this idea that talking over problems makes you less of a man (whatever that means). If I had come across it, it would be dismissed so quickly it would barely register.

I'm just putting forward that it's not always down to the mental health of the individual, but rather that the role men have in society is being undermined. It's almost like those that are drawn towards more traditional roles are told they have mental issues that need to be worked through. Whereas I believe encouraging and harnessing those roles would have a much more positive impact.

I do wonder if some men are just built for a more brutal world. The fascination of basic survival, war, violence, adventure and the unknown is strong in many young men. It's often passed off as a romantic ideal, but I suspect there is a craving for a harder world, one where you are rewarded for the suffering you go through.

 

[Wander]

I do wonder if some men are just built for a more brutal world.

That's an interesting point.
I'm going to have to walk a thin tight-rope on this one.

In brief, I am in complete and utter agreement with Nigel's points above.
But I am sure you can hear that 'however'. And it's this.
It is nothing but a great and positive thing that young men feel free and empowered to express their emotions and able and willing to talk through how they feel, whether to a parent, a teacher, some other elder, and even their peers.
The problem with this sensitivity, though, is that there are those out there who would happily exploit it.
There is a sub-culture who would see such behaviour as a sign of weakness. People who could exploit that sensitivity for their own gain. Trigger warnings may be given to students who could see some material as 'challenging' and the students are free to embrace or ignore as they choose - it's their choice and they are free to be the 'man' they wish to be. But I can't escape the feeling that finding, say, Dickens' 'David Copperfield' as containing upsetting material is not a good preparation for life. If David Copperfield is enough to send you in to a crisis then one is poorly equipped for life and the real adversaries it can present. There is a whole culture out there who are used to life's iniquities and difficulties and they are more than capable of taking advantage of such delicate sensibilities.
That is true, of course, of both males and females.
Some resilience is essential.

 

[Wander]

Oh, and a quick addendum if I may.
I work part time as a university lecturer in English and American literature.
Yes, students are given warnings about content of some literature.
But I have never seen a single person have a melt down or refuse to read something. They may not agree with it, challenge its assumptions, and question its values, but no one has actually had a crisis over something they have read. Not in my limited experience.
Yes, I know The Daily Mail, Talk TV, and GB News et al would have you believe that all students are delicate wallflowers who crumble at the slightest nasty thought, but that's just not so.
Undoubtedly some do, but it's no worse (probably even less) than the reactionaries' knee-jerk reactions to the idea that some works of art may contain upsetting concepts. In their own way they are just as triggered and need the same inner resilience they are adamant is missing in a younger generation.

 

[William_Montgomery]

That's an interesting point.
I'm going to have to walk a thin tight-rope on this one.

In brief, I am in complete and utter agreement with Nigel's points above.
But I am sure you can hear that 'however'. And it's this.
It is nothing but a great and positive thing that young men feel free and empowered to express their emotions and able and willing to talk through how they feel, whether to a parent, a teacher, some other elder, and even their peers.
The problem with this sensitivity, though, is that there are those out there who would happily exploit it.
There is a sub-culture who would see such behaviour as a sign of weakness. People who could exploit that sensitivity for their own gain. Trigger warnings may be given to students who could see some material as 'challenging' and the students are free to embrace or ignore as they choose - it's their choice and they are free to be the 'man' they wish to be. But I can't escape the feeling that finding, say, Dickens' 'David Copperfield' as containing upsetting material is not a good preparation for life. If David Copperfield is enough to send you in to a crisis then one is poorly equipped for life and the real adversaries it can present. There is a whole culture out there who are used to life's iniquities and difficulties and they are more than capable of taking advantage of such delicate sensibilities.
That is true, of course, of both males and females.
Some resilience is essential.

I wouldn't agree that expressing ones emotions and talking through how one feels is a wholly beneficial approach. It seems more like a feminine answer to a masculine problem. I'm sure there are specific circumstances where it would be helpful to some men, but as a blanket approach I'm not convinced it serves a useful purpose, for most men, most of the time.

In regards to the current trend of 'trigger warnings' and the like. The very fact they exist is enough to raise questions about the education system and the general direction that this is heading in. To be frank, it's as much of an embarrassment as 'safe spaces' and, as you pointed out, it's an awful way to prepare our younger generations for what lies ahead. Couple that with the constant negative association of masculine traits and you'll end up with a lost generation.

 

[Wander]

I wouldn't agree that expressing ones emotions and talking through how one feels is a wholly beneficial approach. It seems more like a feminine answer to a masculine problem.

I'm truly gobsmacked at that response. I've got nothing to say to that.
Stunned and disappointed.

I'm sure there are specific circumstances where it would be helpful to some men, but as a blanket approach I'm not convinced it serves a useful purpose, for most men, most of the time.

I don't think anyone would suggest it as a blanket approach. It's merely a tool to have in one's armoury. It may help a few more people if they weren't dismissed as being 'feminine' for speaking out. That, it seems to me, is PRECISELY the problem.

In regards to the current trend of 'trigger warnings' and the like. The very fact they exist is enough to raise questions about the education system and the general direction that this is heading in. To be frank, it's as much of an embarrassment as 'safe spaces' and, as you pointed out, it's an awful way to prepare our younger generations for what lies ahead.

Again, in my experience (as someone who currently works in Higher Education), there really aren't that many students who respond to trigger warnings or need safe spaces. There just aren't. It's just misrepresentation by right wing media. Oh yeah, I'm sure there are, somewhere. But it's nowhere near as prolific as you've been led to believe.

Couple that with the constant negative association of masculine traits and you'll end up with a lost generation.

It's no worse than someone using feminine traits negatively...

Look, get a grip. Men are not at risk. They are still there and they are still dominant in society. You are confusing equality and equity. There is increasing equality between men and women but the equity is still heavily in favour of men. Men have nothing to worry about, it's just part of an artificial culture war. Don't give in to it and don't believe the misinformation the right wing media is feeding you and preying on your insecurities. Don't let them win.

 

[William_Montgomery]

I'm truly gobsmacked at that response. I've got nothing to say to that.
Stunned and disappointed

I don't think anyone would suggest it as a blanket approach. It's merely a tool to have in one's armoury. It may help a few more people if they weren't dismissed as being 'feminine' for speaking out. That, it seems to me, is PRECISELY the problem.

I think you've misunderstood me. I won't rewrite it, but I think you're putting your own meaning onto my words.

I have never dismissed anybody as being 'feminine'. The very idea is ridiculous to me. Women have an incredible tool kit to deal with the problems they face, of which there are many. If that can be harnessed by men, then great. But, we are different and we have different ways of processing things. Generally speaking.

It's no worse than someone using feminine traits negatively...

Indeed, I have a lot to say about the struggles women face today. But this is a thread about men and the problems they face.

Look, get a grip. Men are not at risk. They are still there and they are still dominant in society. You are confusing equality and equity. There is increasing equality between men and women but the equity is still heavily in favour of men. Men have nothing to worry about, it's just part of an artificial culture war. Don't give in to it and don't believe the misinformation the right wing media is feeding you and preying on your insecurities. Don't let them win

The whole point is that men are at risk. Why else are we discussing ridiculously high rates of suicide, imprisonment, homelessness and substance abuse, if not for the fact that society is failing them?
How can you come on this thread and say 'Men have nothing to worry about'?

Regarding the whole 'right-wing media' and 'misinformation', I don't play those games and base my opinions on my own experience and research. I would suggest getting away from those labels.

Finally, a little bit less of the 'get a grip' stuff, if you don't mind. It's a serious topic and should be discussed as such. I'm sure we can disagree in a respectable way.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Just to clarify. I'm drawing a distinction between discussing one's emotions/feelings and discussing one's problems.

I have men and women in my life with whom I know I can discuss any problems with. And for that I am extremely grateful.

 

[GNJC]

I'm truly gobsmacked at that response. I've got nothing to say to that.
Stunned and disappointed.



I don't think anyone would suggest it as a blanket approach. It's merely a tool to have in one's armoury. It may help a few more people if they weren't dismissed as being 'feminine' for speaking out. That, it seems to me, is PRECISELY the problem.



Again, in my experience (as someone who currently works in Higher Education), there really aren't that many students who respond to trigger warnings or need safe spaces. There just aren't. It's just misrepresentation by right wing media. Oh yeah, I'm sure there are, somewhere. But it's nowhere near as prolific as you've been led to believe.


It's no worse than someone using feminine traits negatively...

Look, get a grip. Men are not at risk. They are still there and they are still dominant in society. You are confusing equality and equity. There is increasing equality between men and women but the equity is still heavily in favour of men. Men have nothing to worry about, it's just part of an artificial culture war. Don't give in to it and don't believe the misinformation the right wing media is feeding you and preying on your insecurities. Don't let them win.

Hmm... I dislike party / left-right politics, focusing instead on issue by issue so, for balance... while agreeing that the right of the media certainly do play up the 'threat' of the woke stuff mentioned, the left (woke?) side - particularly on social media - play up the other side of it.

We know that a very vocal but small group of people shouting loudly on social media can have an influence many orders of magnitude greater than they could in the real world. And there can be no doubting that this allows for both them to claim and make more of a storm about 'toxic masculinity' than there really is, and for any opposing media to claim the woke-action is a real thing too.

For myself I don't think 'masculinity' is really threatened. Because in the real world if anyone attempts wokey thought-policing or censorship on me, or anyone else I think I know well enough to predict the reaction from, the response will make it clear it's not going to work.

But I do think that those people who are insecure, easily influenced, short-termist in their outlook, less than consistent / honest in their dealings and who are prone to dogma may respond to woke-type pressure, as they do to other kinds. I am writing, of course, about our illustrious elected representatives in Westminster. And that has implications for all of us...

 

[William_Montgomery]

Hmm... I dislike party / left-right politics, focusing instead on issue by issue so, for balance... while agreeing that the right of the media certainly do play up the 'threat' of the woke stuff mentioned, the left (woke?) side - particularly on social media - play up the other side of it.

For sure. It's a dangerous thing that can easily draw people in if not kept in check. It's always refreshing to talk to real people for a healthy dose of nuanced opinions.

But I do think that those people who are insecure, easily influenced, short-termist in their outlook, less than consistent / honest in their dealings and who are prone to dogma may respond to woke-type pressure, as they do to other kinds. I am writing, of course, about our illustrious elected representatives in Westminster. And that has implications for all of us...

This does concern me in as much as before you know it ideas that could/should be easily refuted and pushed aside have gained legs and taken root in our institutions, and once they're there, they're hard to budge.

 

[gibson 175]

( Taken from my SM )

Tomorrow is International Men's Day.

View attachment 70565
I try to post this every year to do my bit to raise awareness as much as I can, as its a subject that I'm passionate about.
I've lost a couple of Male friends to suicide and have at times in the past struggled myself with darker thoughts that I'm sure many of us do ( male and female ) - in silence and without feeling able to be able to ask for help.

Statistics on Suicide are quite simply harrowing.
https://media.samaritans.org/.../Suicide_Stats_England...


So before people start reaching for the 'Like' button to show solidarity I wonder if I can ask the following?? ,- message, text, ring , facetime - whatever - any of your male friends you've not seen for while just to say:- " Hi! How you doing " and check in with them.

Men as we all know , are not the best for communicating their feelings at the best of times, - never mind the worst of times.

Thank You.

TeeDee

I applaud your sentiment. I think one of the best things is to help each other as human beings-goodness knows this is the last thing we have left. Support services have been cut beyond the bone. Even when men ask for help and speak,up services are so stretched as to be ineffective in many cases. I have recently seen instances where a male has been diagnosed with a mental health condition and is at risk of suicide( I think schizophrenia coupled with autism ...something like that)-his family have been told the waiting list is 1 year to get help. The family were so desperate they spent thousands of pounds they could not afford getting a private psychiatrist to give a diagnosis. Even then there was no help unless the person in question actually attempted suicide.
I have also seen vulnerable males with real mental health problems who have been let down by institutions. A college and a university badly let down 2 male students despite the families crying out for help. In one case the university said they would not help their son who was going through a mental health crisis unless he asked for help himself. Of course people who are deeply disturbed are not going to ask for help because...they don't!
I am sure you are all aware of this kind of thing and have seen similar things yourself.
So...unless you have the financial means or family support you are alone. Even then some crucial family members don't understand real mental illness. Most people don't unless you work in this area or it happens to someone in your family. Even then some family members can be really unsupportive and make things worse eg someone I know has been diagnosed with a mental illness and most of the family are saying that the young man should 'pull his socks up' and 'act like a man' . With that attitude I guarantee,from the bad cases of mental health I have seen it will be suicide , a violent act , self harm etc... So another problem is other people being dismissive of serious mental health. Some employers are also dismissive of poor mental health -most are supportive. I have heard of a man who is caring for his mentally ill son been told he can't have time off from work to take his son to a hospital appointment-he was told that was 'the wife's job'
Anyway I am not sure what point I am making. I think it's maybe.. 'let's look out for each other'. Rant over!

 

[Wander]

The whole point is that men are at risk. Why else are we discussing ridiculously high rates of suicide, imprisonment, homelessness and substance abuse, if not for the fact that society is failing them?

That we can agree on.
But what might help men is allowing men to speak up and not tell them to keep quiet and stop acting like a woman (sorry, 'feminine' was your word. But it adds up to the same and plays to that long-standing, accusatory, and negative, trope that expressing your feelings is somehow weak and feminine - whether you intended that or not, I hope you can see that).
Instead, allowing men (and by that I mean those who wish to, not necessarily all) to speak about how they feel, without disparaging them, it may just save them from suicide, substance abuse, and the concomitant problems.
Which is surely what we all want.
If we want men's health to improve then we should be open to ideas and solutions and not closing them down by saying, 'that's feminine' or 'men shouldn't do that'.
Naturally, there is no one size fits all. But let's allow those who want to access routes to improved health take the route that works for them (rather than your proscriptive ideas) free of any raised eyebrows, tuts, and comments like 'that's feminine', eh?

The causes of men's ill-health are many and complicated. It's not just because you think that men's role in society is changing and they are facing a crisis of identity. No. Men have been told, for centuries, to be stoical and unemotional, financial burdens of supporting a household (especially in difficult financial times), a changing economy and industry (no traditional 'men's jobs' anymore), expected to be the bulwark of the family, plus many other gender and societal pressures take a toll on men's health. There is no one cause so let's not blame any one thing.

 

[nigelp]

@Wander

I admire your perseverance. I fear that you are not being listened to but providing an arena for various hobby horses to be trotted around!

 

[GNJC]

@Wander

I admire your perseverance. I fear that you are not being listened to but providing an arena for various hobby horses to be trotted around!

That comes across as rather condescending and self-righteous, possibly with intent...

 

[William_Montgomery]

That we can agree on.

I'm sure we probably agree on many aspects of this. Certainly on the overall end goal.

what might help men is allowing men to speak up and not tell them to keep quiet and stop acting like a woman (sorry, 'feminine' was your word

Again, at no point did I, or would I, criticise any man for acting feminine. I would like that to come across clearly, as it's an opinion that stands in direct contrast to my own position.

I would suggest anybody working through any of the problems we are discussing finds out what works for them on an individual basis, and to hell with anyone who would have a problem with that

My main concern is with the general approach and the idea that not wanting to talk things through on a level of feelings/emotions is somehow denial or repression. I will stand by my statement that it's more of a feminine approach.

If we want men's health to improve then we should be open to ideas and solutions and not closing them down

I agree we should be open to ideas, including that men and women have fundementally differing approaches to working through traumatic experiences and to not recognise that has the potential to make things worse.

Naturally, there is no one size fits all. But let's allow those who want to access routes to improved health take the route that works for them

Exactly, absolutely true. Though I think that it can also be beneficial to think in more general terms when looking at more general problems.

Just to add, I'm not talking about people with serious mental health conditions, but rather those that find it difficult to establish their role in society.