International Men's Day.

[FerlasDave]

It occurred to me recently, and this should bring us back to “bushcraft” …ish.

I rewatched the Rambo first blood movie last year. (And read the book) It hadn’t occurred to me before that there are deeper issues that are fantastically captured, right from the very beginning. It would have played out totally differently if John and Will had been more understanding of each other.

If you haven’t already looked up the alternate ending either then do!

…But I digress.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Andrew Tate IS locked up. He is profiled as ‘American-British’ I’m
Not confident Gentleman in either
Want a sexual predator who measures manhood in testosterone cars to irritate Greta Thurnberg and beats on people for income and social contribution.
Nelson Mandela was in a critical meeting ending Apartheid with
National reconciliation instead of further violence. A cleaning lady walked into the hotel room. Mandela stood up, buttoned his jacket and said ‘ may I help you madam?’
That’s Manhood.

I'm not talking about Tate's character, it's not the point.
The point is, people who talk about "toxic masculinity" are most often the ones who come out with the most venomous comments.
Hoping for a man to be found guilty and be locked up for rape and trafficking is disturbing, to say the least.

 

[Brizzlebush]

"Toxic masculinity" is a meaningless phrase. It's got about as much substance as "white privilege". Both phrases reek of bitterness.
It's used as an attack on traditional masculinity.

I'm sorry I have to call this out.

The definition of Toxic Masculinity is open to debate. Much has been made of it in public. Like many terms that get thrown around online and in the media, they are used without thought or correct context.
I have my opinions having studied it, experienced it, and written a presentation on the subject as part of my diploma, I think I have a good understanding. It's an example of terminology becoming popular, and frequently used incorrectly to make a point.

However the term White Privelige is not "without substance".
It is real. It has NOTHING to do with masculinity in and of itself.
It is about race. It is NOT gendered.
Whilst it may be dated, and have some faults, at the core, the majority of the statements (attached) are true.
It is another term misused, out of context and thrown around by the media and online which then ceases to lose its original meaning.
Perhaps you're using the term as it's been used by others. Which sadly is wrong.

White male privilege, now that's a different story. Shall we get that one started?

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I feel where there's this much potential to upset people, we need to use terminology correctly, therefore we need to be specific.

 

[nigelp]

It occurred to me recently, and this should bring us back to “bushcraft” …ish.

I rewatched the Rambo first blood movie last year. (And read the book) It hadn’t occurred to me before that there are deeper issues that are fantastically captured, right from the very beginning. It would have played out totally differently if John and Will had been more understanding of each other.

If you haven’t already looked up the alternate ending either then do!

…But I digress.

The book is very good. I like the film also but the book does flesh out the interplay between two generations of men whom are in many very similar.

 

[Wander]

Hoping for a man to be found guilty and be locked up for rape and trafficking is disturbing, to say the least.

No one said they wanted him to be found guilty.
Read what people wrote, not what you want them to have written.
The point being made is that if he is found guilty of rape and human trafficking then it would be right for him to be incarcerated. Would you not want the same?

If found innocent of rape and human trafficking then no, he shouldn't be jailed. A misogynist bell end he may well be (judging by the things he says) but that's not a criminal offence.

To be honest, I like it when sexists/racists/wannabe Nietzschean uber-men speak out. It means we can all see them for monumental idiots they are and can collectively laugh at them. I'd sooner they speak out and leave no doubt about who they are than keep it silent and private.

 

[William_Montgomery]

No one said they wanted him to be found guilty.
Read what people wrote, not what you want them to have written.
The point being made is that if he is found guilty of rape and human trafficking then it would be right for him to be incarcerated. Would you not want the same?

If found innocent of rape and human trafficking then no, he shouldn't be jailed. A misogynist bell end he may well be (judging by the things he says) but that's not a criminal offence.

To be honest, I like it when sexists/racists/wannabe Nietzschean uber-men speak out. It means we can all see them for monumental idiots they are and can collectively laugh at them. I'd sooner they speak out and leave no doubt about who they are than keep it silent and private.

I do read what people write, down to the letter. Perhaps you should go back and read through the exchange again.

 

[TeeDee]

That sounds a good book.

Anyone read `Iron John`?

Yes

 

[TeeDee]

It occurred to me recently, and this should bring us back to “bushcraft” …ish.

I rewatched the Rambo first blood movie last year. (And read the book) It hadn’t occurred to me before that there are deeper issues that are fantastically captured, right from the very beginning. It would have played out totally differently if John and Will had been more understanding of each other.

If you haven’t already looked up the alternate ending either then do!

…But I digress.

Book is quite different to the film.

The range of actors that were considered for the John-J? Role would have also made it an interesting change- I think that Hoffman was one of those offered the role.

First Blood - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Doesn't really depict the real impact of PTSD Unfortunately.

 

[Wander]

I do read what people write, down to the letter. Perhaps you should go back and read through the exchange again.

Oh, God - it's going to be like that is it?
Let's get down to brass tacks then: my dad's bigger than your dad.

 

[TeeDee]

If he is found guilty of rape and human trafficking then, yes, I DO think he should be locked up.
Don't you?


A slightly disingenuous question, TeeDee. You're better than that.
Simple gold digging? Then both parties are consenting adults so let them get on with it.
But Tate stands accused of rape and human trafficking and if guilty then he faces the appropriate sentence, regardless of gender (just ask Ghislaine Maxwell).

I wouldn't concur that Gold digging per se is an activity that matters if both parties are consenting - they are both consenting to meet and date but one ( or possibly both ) have hidden ulterior motives.- Thats surely the notion of what Gold digging is .


But if you dislike the term I offered - fine.

But are you saying you don't believe that there is / are female type versions of Mr Tates character type on the other side of the sexual fence??? really??

To be clear I'm not defending Mr Tate on any potential accusations of criminal misconduct in a sexual nature but the notion of PUA being more weighted in one sexual sphere than another is not correct.

 

[TeeDee]

My main takeaway regarding the notion of Masculinity is that we all ( as men ) get to define it as we see fit to suit ourselves in our own lives to our own standards, beliefs and ethics.

Not to have it imposed on ourselves by anyone that wishes to define it or place a 'standard' of what it should be. And yet Ironically I can also see why many/some may benefit a real need for sense of direction in that area , and I do appreciate the paradox.

 

[nigelp]

Book is quite different to the film.

The range of actors that were considered for the John-J? Role would have also made it an interesting change- I think that Hoffman was one of those offered the role.

First Blood - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Doesn't really depict the real impact of PTSD Unfortunately.

The book was written at a time when PTSD was just starting to be understood and excepted. I’m many ways both protagonists suffered from being in combat situations. I like the book and the ending but a I think Hoffman would have been terrible as Rambo.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Oh, God - it's going to be like that is it?
Let's get down to brass tacks then: my dad's bigger than your dad.

You've lost me. I think I'll leave it there.

 

[TeeDee]

The book was written at a time when PTSD was just starting to be understood and excepted. I’m many ways both protagonists suffered from being in combat situations. I like the book and the ending but a I think Hoffman would have been terrible as Rambo.

I don't disagree. I just don't feel the vibe and understanding of that carries through into the film. My father had PTSD from Korea and it was barely acknowledged at the time.

Hoffman - most likely - I just have an interest in what actors are considered for certain roles. Imagining how an actor would fill anothers shoes in the same film/genre

We will never know just how good or bad James Brolin may have been as a Bond lead man as an example.

 

[William_Montgomery]

That sounds a good book.

Anyone read `Iron John`?

Yeah, many years ago though. I've still got it and would like to re-read it.

 

[Wander]

But are you saying you don't believe that there is / are female type versions of Mr Tates character type on the other side of the sexual fence??? really??

Certainly not. No, I'm absolutely sure there is! We've all heard of young ladies having 'sugar daddys'. That's pretty much the same thing. You're right, no immediate alternative name for it comes to mind, but I'm totally sure there are female equivalents.

To be clear I'm not defending Mr Tate on any potential accusations of criminal misconduct in a sexual nature but the notion of PUA being more weighted in one sexual sphere than another is not correct.

Again, as above - I agree.

The reason I say it's OK if both are consenting is because both parties usually know they are both getting something out of it (a drive in that flashy sports car/a lovely piece of jewellry/a quick legover) and so both are buying in to that (let's look aside the morality of such promiscuity). Of course, when one of them is vulnerable then that's a different matter. But most people, old or young, tend to know they are being used and balance it off by knowing they are using the other person in return. And to that, I say 'fair play'. It's up to them. There are, of course, caveats to that, but in general then so long as both know what's going on and are OK with it, then leave them to it.
And then we have characters like Andrew Tate, allegedly...

 

[William_Montgomery]

Has anybody read 'Can't Hurt Me' by David Goggins?

 

[TeeDee]

Certainly not. No, I'm absolutely sure there is! We've all heard of young ladies having 'sugar daddys'. That's pretty much the same thing. You're right, no immediate alternative name for it comes to mind, but I'm totally sure there are female equivalents.



Again, as above - I agree.

The reason I say it's OK if both are consenting is because both parties usually know they are both getting something out of it (a drive in that flashy sports car/a lovely piece of jewellry/a quick legover) and so both are buying in to that (let's look aside the morality of such promiscuity). Of course, when one of them is vulnerable then that's a different matter. But most people, old or young, tend to know they are being used and balance it off by knowing they are using the other person in return. And to that, I say 'fair play'. It's up to them. There are, of course, caveats to that, but in general then so long as both know what's going on and are OK with it, then leave them to it.
And then we have characters like Andrew Tate, allegedly...

Thank you explaining your thinking.
I don't know if to some if it IS that obvious.
I have personally no issue with pick-up-artist mentality if thats what someone wants to hone - any field of pursuit will require becoming the most skilled in it to prosper , why shouldn't men learn the skills and techniques to become more successful in the dating game then they were?

I guess I morally object to such things as dating apps that have a field for people to put in their salary and then that information can be filtered out in ones searches - if thats applicable for both Men and Women then fair enough - I've just only seen the male side of the sexual fence.

Anyhoo - thread divergence!! Still pleased that its remaining civil.

 

[nigelp]

I don't disagree. I just don't feel the vibe and understanding of that carries through into the film. My father had PTSD from Korea and it was barely acknowledged at the time.

Hoffman - most likely - I just have an interest in what actors are considered for certain roles. Imagining how an actor would fill anothers shoes in the same film/genre

We will never know just how good or bad James Brolin may have been as a Bond lead man as an example.

Like a lot of books that transition to film the nuances are lost because they have to add in action and adventure. I think films like Rambo and others of the Vietnam theme changed attitudes in America towards service personal and highlighted issues like PTSD.

 

[TeeDee]

Has anybody read 'Can't Hurt Me' by David Goggins?

Yes. But I think you won't find many here agree what what you say as they 'may' place him into that Ubermensch role that has previously been mentioned.

Which is a shame because anyone that reads his book will see i hope how he is nearly 100% about self humility. Hard life growing up.