Input on putting together a first kit bag

Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
25
Europe
Thanks for the tips. As to a mat, we shall see, it would of course be season and location dependant, but I much prefer the idea of using foliage. Not to mention I am someone who likes to be cold, not warm. I live in an uninsulated brick room without any heating and sleep in the buff under a 3 tog duvet. I'm not conventional. Never disinfected a wound in my life. But if course, if I decide I do need or want a sleeping mat, I will of course buy one.

That may be the case, but hypothermia is not something to take lightly. Been there done that, not a pleasant experience. Using foliage is all right, where you HAVE PERMISSION to raid the local shrubbery to get the material. While I am happy to bivvi down in random woodlands when out (note this is not an official endorsement of such behaviour), the idea of lopping bits of trees (or having a fire), is IMHO, entirely unreasonable behaviour. A sleep matt can be had for under a tenner. Save the foliage for others t enjoy.

As for never disinfected a wound. Please report to the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, your immune system is an impressive beast that deserves to be studied for science.

Also cut your arm to the bone? Out of curiosity, on which side of the arm?

As to the tent, as I say this kit is also going to be used for conventional camping in city campsites so I have a tent for when luxuary is required, and a bivvy tarp and hammock for when I just go out and have some fun (also plan to buy a proper hammock as well as the pocket one)

That makes sense. Just don't use a bivvi bag inside a tent, it won't work and you'll wake up soaked.

@quixotic geek, I've not decided on purifying method yet, but ideally it will be anything that doesn't involve boiling even if it is costly.

Sawyer mini it Just Works™.

to catch a pike on a nato fishing kit designed pretty much to be used from a life boat at sea for passing shoal fish? not gonna happen. a tricky species to catch. and trust me they'll bite through most lines, you'd need wire trace.

Not to mention that it is not legal to fish in the UK without a rod.

As for the first aid kit, its not controversial, and I apologise if I offend you with my follow up remark, its simply idiotic. if you're telling me you've cut your arms to the bone multiple times, and never bothered to clean the wound, then thats even more idiotic. and if you're telling me you then went bank side (presumably wading for salmon fishing) with a mobility effecting injury then Im sorry but thats pretty much polished off the idiotic reference as far as it will go.

Seconded.

Not carrying sufficient first aid to treat either yourself or others is appalling, especially as you've yet to get roots in the hobby and reliable experience. say you get an arterial bleed, and because you lacked the supplies to support yourself you fall unconscious, and other people have to put themselves as risk to find / help you? granted it'll do **** all for a femoral sever but its the principal. now, god forbid this would ever happen, but what if you lost your life due to an accident? say falling whilst salmon fishing, breaking your ankle, then being in the scenario of mid river, two broken joints? you aren't getting out of that one on your own. but some poor bugger would no doubt try and help you, risking himself, or some poor civil servant might have to drag out a body.

Having volunteered as a body for my local search and rescue group, I can second everything here. In the UK, SAR is provided by volunteers, who may work with the emergency services, to come out in all hours and all weathers, to find those in need. To not take adequate precautions to mitigate common risks when embarking on a hobby such as bushcraft is reckless and irresponsible.

This may seem extreme but I guarantee you not only would you be ostracised from the bushcraft community for being such a liability, but you're also putting yourself at great risk. yes my rant can seem pedantic but I firmly believe we all have a communal responsibility to look out for each other, and if I ignored such brazenness I'd have guilt if something happened.

Well said.

It may seem like we're being harsh and unfair. But we are trying to provide help and guidance, so that you can enjoy the hobby of bushcraft, and we don't have to read in the paper about volunteers risking their lives to recover your body from a stream where you've been doing something you shouldn't have.

Good luck.

J
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
This may seem extreme but I guarantee you not only would you be ostracised from the bushcraft community for being such a liability, but you're also putting yourself at great risk. yes my rant can seem pedantic but I firmly believe we all have a communal responsibility to look out for each other, and if I ignored such brazenness I'd have guilt if something happened.

What are you babbling about?

Ostracised from the bushcraft community for not carrying a first aid kit?

Do you carry a first aid kit on you when you go to the supermarket? You could trip, fall against a shelf and give yourself a nasty graze! Think about it, you could be ostracised from the shopping community! :eek:

Don't get me wrong, I agree in principle that you should carry a basic kit, but going to the extreme of saying you'll be ostracised... I mean come on!

Blunt of it is, if you get out of bed in the morning you will encounter risk. Stay in bed, you encounter risk. Smoke a ciggy, increased risk. Eat a bacon sarny, increased risk equivalent to nuclear fallout apparently. And camping, you'll encounter risk... but nobodies ostracising... nobodies going to banish you for not taking a first aid kit.

And for those agreeing with the farce of ostracisation for not carrying a first aid kit... I'm tempted to stop every single person I see jogging in a morning, every person out for a walk with the dog and every person driving a car... see how many of them routinely carry a first aid kit.

Crikey, reading some of the advice in this thread just reinforces what a pathetic mess we're becoming in this country. The police being called over fishing? Nevermind the burglars or the corporate thieves, someone has caught a fish!!! Venturing outside without a first aid kit, that is a hanging offence!

'I apologise if I offend you with my follow up remark' Mozzi, you're being over the top on your 'advice'. The guy wants to explore the outdoors, not scale Everest!
 

Post Tenebras Lux

Tenderfoot
Sep 18, 2015
61
0
Cambridgeshire
I think it's best to practice 'better safe than sorry'.

If I encountered someone on my excursions doing bushcraft that was using a knife etc but didn't have a first aid kit, I'd definitely mention they should err on the side of caution and bring at least basic provisions like plasters.

Personally I carry one that's a bit more extensive than that because I don't plan on meeting my Maker early because I didn't take a few extra bits. Last thing you want is to practice all the safety in the world and then get a mechanical injury or the one time out of a thousand the axe deflect and somehow catch you badly etc.
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
225
westmidlands
The police being called over fishing? Nevermind the burglars or the corporate thieves, someone has caught a fish!!! Venturing outside without a first aid kit, that is a hanging offence!

Over fishing is a sereous problem, as declining fish stocks may mean we end up with a situation like in canada where the cod dissapeared and never came back. I know they have a plentiful supply of lobsters now as a rebalancing of nature, but if say for example someone had mercilessly hunted bear in canada until there where non left, it would be the same thing. Bear hunting brings in an enormous ammount of cash but it has to be done carefully, and the outside non resident bear hunter has to pay a premium from what ive heard. The same goes for climbing everest or hunting big game, it all costs money, and can ruin the environment I left unchecked.

As for the fak, it should be dictated by your skills, to close arteries or deep flesh wounds, bone breakages. I you learn first aid you will know what to take, and in the case of medicines when and when not to administer them. Keeping burns and cuts clean and secured is what you reallu need to aim for, not the other way round of having as many dressings,creams, bandages that you can shake a stick at. Its not a hospital kit, its a first aid kit.
 

hughlle1

Nomad
Nov 4, 2015
299
7
London
Lots of input, i'll reply to what i can.

First. Fishing.

Yes, the NATO kit is for raft usage, however I also obtained it for pennies and it contains items that are useful none the less and would have cost more bought individually inc postage and packaging (no angling shops within walking distance of home alas) and is to be supplemented by items from the coarse kit. Also worth baring in mind that this is stuff not specifically for rivers, but more the idea being to have the equipment at hand that could cover any situation, whether i'm on the coast or on a river. No different than a first aid kit, if it doesn't atke up any space and it could be remotely useful, might as well have access to it (you could also say hey, i'm in a tight spot, i've a cut, and no first aid kit at hand because *give reason* but i have what can be fashioned into a needle, and i have fishing line. That's a jimmy rig emergency needle and thread right there.

As to permissions and all that lot, I am well aware of that (and is one of my main reasons for wanting off this pathetic excuse of an island) and would not be used for a case of oh, there is a river, i'll fish. Rather i'd plan where i'm going and what permissions and abilities I have. If i specifically want to fish then i'll do things accordingly, being going somewhere it is legal, obtaining permission, or going to one of my dads beats. No different to making a fire, we all have the tools, doesn't mean we will go and do it indiscriminatingly.

Second: First Aid. Perhaps i have not put my intentions across clearly. There are situations which call for comprehensive first aid kit, and those which do not. If i am to be out in the middle of nowehere with other people, or in a situation where i could very well go and kill myself, then of course i will take something suitible. However right now my outings will largely just be day walks in local woods. You may be the kind who does this with all the bells and whistles, but I am not. I never have and never plan to go on a day walk with first aid and this and that and a compass and whistle and emergency flair. It is paranoia gone mad in my personal opinion. We face risks every day, yet we don't take first aid out. My family have always been outdoors kinds (well not the siblings as much as the parents) and we have never taken first aid when going out for a walk in the woods because you would have to be monumentally stupid to sever an artery while picking up sticks and such. It may seem rude, but if i'm going to be ostracised for not feeling that a first aid kit is needed to take a walk in the countryside, then these are not really people i want to know. I am not going top be putting myself into survival situations quite yet, as stated, for now it will just be walks and learning tree types, collecting twigs to whittle, very simple stuff. I could also flip it and say if you can't go for a walk without a first aid kit then you sound too accident prone for my liking :p

First aid is just one of those things. you can go from hypochondriac to risk taker. That's everyones choice to make. As said, i've never disinfected a wound, the only time i have used plasters is when i cut myself working while working in the food industry. I do not even wash the cuts under water, use any burn salves etc. I do not take any medicines, and bin any antibiotics i'm given, it is around 18 years since i had any medical checkup. My house does not even have plasters in it, not a single first aid item. I have never had a use. I have always taken the stance that if i cannot survive without fancy modern things then i have no wish to survive. I should also add that i'm pretty safe with knives, other than unavoidable cuts in a commercial kitchen, i rarely if ever cut myself accidentally. Intentionally is a different story.

In short, i will be going on day walks in the countryside mostly, if i need a first aid kit to do this i do not believe i should have left the house to start with.

As to the knife I bought. well that is life. You continue to learn new things. I had originally seen the ray mears knife, thought it far overpriced which most reviews seemed to agree with, and this was suggested as a good alternative. The price didn't bother me to be honest. I could also probably have gotten a better quality folder at a cheaper price than the benchmade, but i like it. As with any hobby, you live and learn. There is also the psychology behind the price though. If i had bought a £10 knife, that's only £10, so if i never use it, oh well. If i spend £120 on a knife, it will be a far greater push to get outside and actually make use of it.

It may be controversial, but i KNOW i am not alone in this feeling, but risk makes me feel alive. Life can get pretty boring when you try and protect yourself every possible outcome. I'm sure people would say why take the risk of being out in the woods with a knife when you could be on a campsite. If you get hurt in the woods and need a med-evac, those guys have just had to go through all of that because you were "selfish" and refused to just put up a tent in a campsite. These kind of blame and shame arguments can be applied to absolutely anything. Why did you cut yourself? Because you couldn't have just taken a spoon in your pocket but no, decided to try making one instead. Why should people be put through an ordeal because you were too proud just to take a metal spoon? Is there an accepted cutoff point for risk taking behaviour? You could have the best equipped bag you could find, yet hurt yourself to the degree that you need to be taken to a hospital, surely there is guilt because you could have just gone to a campsite.

Seems people have made an image of me already though :( Of course i sent a private message to the OP of the meet-up thread. I wouldn't be so rude as to just stick my name on given i'm a completely unknown member. Maybe i'll just go into the woods around london and keep to myself. Seems i've already ****** everyone off.
 
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dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
One of the reasons I responded as I did earlier this morning is because all you asked was for a bit of help putting together a kit bag and you've ended up being lectured in one of the most patronising ways I've seen in a while.

If you want to take a first aid kit, take it... If not, don't. Prefer sleeping without a ground mat? Thats your choice, not anyone else's.

As far as a meet goes, every meet I've been to has had relaxed, friendly and genuinely helpful people there... What you've experienced in this thread isn't what the majority are like and nobody is going to ostracise you for what is in your kit bag... Well, unless it's a severed badger's head... that'd just be weird :p
 

Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
25
Europe
hey, i'm in a tight spot, i've a cut, and no first aid kit at hand because *give reason* but i have what can be fashioned into a needle, and i have fishing line. That's a jimmy rig emergency needle and thread right there.

Or you could carry a couple of steri strips... Which reduces the chance of infection, will leave a tidier scar, and won't hurt so much to apply... But hey, I'm just a girl... who carries a FAK in her hand bag...

you would have to be monumentally stupid to sever an artery while picking up sticks and such. It may seem rude, but if i'm going to be ostracised for not feeling that a first aid kit is needed to take a walk in the countryside, then these are not really people i want to know. I am not going top be putting myself into survival situations quite yet, as stated, for now it will just be walks and learning tree types, collecting twigs to whittle, very simple stuff. I could also flip it and say if you can't go for a walk without a first aid kit then you sound too accident prone for my liking :p

It's not about being stupid, it's more often about being unlucky. On Thursday night I was walking along the edge of a field, in the dark, on my way to a plot of woodland I intended to make camp in. The conditions were wet, and as such the ground was slippery. The person I was with had slipped over on some very slippery chalk earlier, and about 20 metres after I had commented about how I would consider the trip a success if I didn't fall over, I went straight down on my backside, landing flat on the Coccyx. I was fortunate, it just made me giggle a lot (tho my camera did smack me in the nose). But, Kent has a lot of flint, I could easy have landed on something sharp. which would have produced a nice big wound. Or I could have twisted my ankle, broken a bone, all sorts. In a field, a good km from the nearest road, on a muddy track. Most likely that would have been a SAR or HART team call out.

On a hike in Northern Spain in September, just as I was making camp, a dog appeared next to me barking like mad. I was fortunate in that all it did was bark, I could have been unlucky and been bitten. Which would not have been a fun experience. Been there done that, I carry the scars of where dogs have bitten me whilst out in the woods.

It's not about being stupid, it's about being unlucky.

First aid is just one of those things. you can go from hypochondriac to risk taker. That's everyones choice to make. As said, i've never disinfected a wound, the only time i have used plasters is when i cut myself working while working in the food industry. I do not even wash the cuts under water, use any burn salves etc. I do not take any medicines, and bin any antibiotics i'm given, it is around 18 years since i had any medical checkup. My house does not even have plasters in it, not a single first aid item. I have never had a use. I have always taken the stance that if i cannot survive without fancy modern things then i have no wish to survive. I should also add that i'm pretty safe with knives, other than unavoidable cuts in a commercial kitchen, i rarely if ever cut myself accidentally. Intentionally is a different story.

Do you by chance also spurn vaccines?

In short, i will be going on day walks in the countryside mostly, if i need a first aid kit to do this i do not believe i should have left the house to start with.

Or you have not appropriately understood the risks and hazards involved. Ultimately, you pays your money you takes your choice. If you don't want to take a FAK, that's up to you.

It may be controversial, but i KNOW i am not alone in this feeling, but risk makes me feel alive. Life can get pretty boring when you try and protect yourself every possible outcome. I'm sure people would say why take the risk of being out in the woods with a knife when you could be on a campsite. If you get hurt in the woods and need a med-evac, those guys have just had to go through all of that because you were "selfish" and refused to just put up a tent in a campsite. These kind of blame and shame arguments can be applied to absolutely anything. Why did you cut yourself? Because you couldn't have just taken a spoon in your pocket but no, decided to try making one instead. Why should people be put through an ordeal because you were too proud just to take a metal spoon? Is there an accepted cutoff point for risk taking behaviour? You could have the best equipped bag you could find, yet hurt yourself to the degree that you need to be taken to a hospital, surely there is guilt because you could have just gone to a campsite.

On the August bank holiday I was camping, on a campsite, in Hampshire. I had taken with me some wood carving tools, and decided to try carving a spoon. I slipped with the spoon knife, and hit my finger. For a cut a smidge over ½" long it produced a lot of blood. Fortunately I had my first aid kit, and used a large dressing to stop the worst bleeding, before patching it up enough to drive myself to hospital. Where it took 5 steri strips. I was on a campsite, and using a tent... Don't think that's enough to mitigate risk.

Seems people have made an image of me already though :( Of course i sent a private message to the OP of the meet-up thread. I wouldn't be so rude as to just stick my name on given i'm a completely unknown member. Maybe i'll just go into the woods around london and keep to myself. Seems i've already ****** everyone off.

You asked for advice, we gave it. What you do with the advice given is upto you. As humans we will judge accordingly. I think you have made choices that are misguided and could cause you and others to be exposed to higher risks than perhaps necessary.

Either way, good luck.

J
 

Alan 13~7

Settler
Oct 2, 2014
571
12
Prestwick, Scotland
On the subject of first aid kits.... I've been camping now for a great many years now & based on injuries & experience over the years this is what I've came up with as my choice of contents.

So marks out of ten & comments of what is or may be lacking in... please...

My small cuts kit is from Kombat https://www.flickr.com/photos/53502716@N06/with a few additions :~ alcohol gel, savalon anticeptic cream, paracetamol pain killers, small folding scisors from Born survivor supplies, a roll of surgical tape & a converted shotgun shell with 15 tums indigestion tabs,....
 
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Alan 13~7

Settler
Oct 2, 2014
571
12
Prestwick, Scotland
You've left out the Defibrillator. :lmao:

if I get so bad that I need one of those I think I would be screwed...
I cant even spell defibulator even if I did have one I have no clue on how to use one, can you self assist if solo? Ive not had to use all items in my kit over years there are some just in case items, But more recently my kit now contains larger quantities of stronger painkillers (300 500 solpadol) & Meloxicam anti inflammatories... for my plantar fasciitis condition...
 
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Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
25
Europe
if I get so bad that I need one of those I think I would be screwed...
I cant even spell defibulator even if I did have one I have no clue on how to use one, can you self assist if solo?

These days Automatic Emergency Defib's are found all over the place, supermarkets, train stations, village halls, all sorts. When you open them up they give you a audio instructions on how to use them.

"Open package. Place pad on patients upper chest, place other pad on patients lower chest"

"analysing rhythm, stand clear of patient. Shock advised, press button. Stand clear of patient, Shocking. Continue CPR.."*

There are various charities and organisations, including the British Red Cross and St Johns Ambulance who offer training in how to use an AED. The use of early defibrillator has been shown to dramatically increase survival rates. Having a AED and knowing how to use one is no replacement for knowing CPR. The two are used in conjunction with one another.

I do not believe you can use an AED on yourself, tho I am happy to be proven wrong on this. I am waiting for someone to make an AED in the size and form factor of a mobile phone. At that point, I may add one to my kit for when I am out with others.

At this point we digress, and it may be worth moving this section of the discussion to the Hygiene and First Aid section in it's own thread. Mods?

Julia

*I'm sure that some medical professional can tell which AED I've trained with the most...
 
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brambles

Settler
Apr 26, 2012
777
91
Aberdeenshire
Over fishing is a sereous problem, as declining fish stocks may mean we end up with a situation like in canada where the cod dissapeared and never came back.

There was me thinking you needed a deep sea trawler and lots of mile long nets when apparently you can catch cod in our lakes and streams with a handline ....
 

Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
25
Europe
There was me thinking you needed a deep sea trawler and lots of mile long nets when apparently you can catch cod in our lakes and streams with a handline ....

Cod in our lakes and streams, no. Other species, oh yes.

If you want to learn more about over fishing of our freshwaters and misuse of fishing equipment, have a look at the environment agency twitter account, they recently posted photos of a gill net they removed from a river in Southern England, as well as people who had left night lines out.

There are reasons that we have strict laws in this country on what equipment you can and can't use to fish.

Also, if you consider a smallish lake (or is that large pond?) if you strung out a dozen hooks bated for pike, you could easily take out the whole of the top of the food pyramid, leaving the whole lake out of balance.

Ecosystems are precariously balanced, and such things can easily tilt one over the edge.

J
 
(you could also say hey, i'm in a tight spot, i've a cut, and no first aid kit at hand because *give reason* but i have what can be fashioned into a needle, and i have fishing line. That's a jimmy rig emergency needle and thread right there.

i would NOT fancy having to fashion a needle and thread from a fishing hook and line to stitch myself back together if i would have an injury serious enough to require stitching- especially if you donot have the training...

i also would ditch/skip the trowel- i never felt the need to carry one; if i really needed to dig a small hole i just used a stick...
 

hughlle1

Nomad
Nov 4, 2015
299
7
London
i would NOT fancy having to fashion a needle and thread from a fishing hook and line to stitch myself back together if i would have an injury serious enough to require stitching- especially if you donot have the training...

i also would ditch/skip the trowel- i never felt the need to carry one; if i really needed to dig a small hole i just used a stick...

Both of these points rather highlight one of the issues this thread has presented.

How far do people want to go in either direction. To me bushcraft is being able to get by on the bare minimum. So in terms of first aid, it's which end of the scale do you want to be. Fully equipped to deal with anything e.g a full kit, or equipped to create your own survival (e.g being able to re-purpose what you have, be it creating a needle out of something else, or a bandage out of suitable bark (or as a less extreme example, turning your hammock paracord into fishing line). The trowel is also such a consideration. Do you use the knife you have to sharpen a stick and make your own trowel, or do you just take a trowel. It's all a question of what you want from bushcraft. e.g the willingness to forego a trowel and just improvise, or the willingness to take a sleeping mat or improvise. As has been mentioned earlier, it is of course a case of experience will dictate what you deem worth carrying or not.
 

brambles

Settler
Apr 26, 2012
777
91
Aberdeenshire
Cod in our lakes and streams, no. Other species, oh yes.

Well of course, but the point is that someone comes here with a request for information as a new entrant to the lifestyle or hobby and is met with what can really only be looked upon a barely coherent contempt, accusatory disdain and hyperbole. A quiet " you canlt legally use a handline to fish on inland water" is perhaps a little better than a shouted "you are responsible for the extinction of our fish and chips!", don't you think? And I'm not even starting on the threats of ostracisation for not having a first aid kit etc etc
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
18
Scotland
These days Automatic Emergency Defib's are found all over the place, supermarkets, train stations, village halls, all sorts. When you open them up they give you a audio instructions on how to use them.

"Open package. Place pad on patients upper chest, place other pad on patients lower chest"

"analysing rhythm, stand clear of patient. Shock advised, press button. Stand clear of patient, Shocking. Continue CPR.."*

There are various charities and organisations, including the British Red Cross and St Johns Ambulance who offer training in how to use an AED. The use of early defibrillator has been shown to dramatically increase survival rates. Having a AED and knowing how to use one is no replacement for knowing CPR. The two are used in conjunction with one another.

I do not believe you can use an AED on yourself, tho I am happy to be proven wrong on this. I am waiting for someone to make an AED in the size and form factor of a mobile phone. At that point, I may add one to my kit for when I am out with others.

At this point we digress, and it may be worth moving this section of the discussion to the Hygiene and First Aid section in it's own thread. Mods?

Julia

*I'm sure that some medical professional can tell which AED I've trained with the most...

They do make a wee one Julia. Unfortunately they have to cut you open to fit it. :D still my pacemakers a cool wee thing, just have to avoid big magnets and airport scanners.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
Is there a woodland next to a hospital in your area by any chance? I reckon that'd be safest... no need to pack a defibrillator and a medical life support bag... just a short walk/crawl into A&E, job done! :p
 

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