Input on putting together a first kit bag

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
28
70
south wales
Dewi, some of the FAK's I've seen on trips worry me, the phrase 'all the gear and idea' springs to mind; people carrying stuff is all well and good if they have the knowledge and training to use it. The K.I.S.S. principle needs applying regarding FAK's and training IMHO. I've stitched wounds in a hospital AFTER the wound had been accessed by a doctor but I'd not do it in the field; I've given CPR for real more times than the vast majority of members here but its a simple procedure we should all know.
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
225
westmidlands
For one reason or another, wounds are often left open for a day or two, to allow the wound to weep naturally and clean itself, stitching should not be done immediately in all cases. And if a sereious enough injury is sustained an evac is your best option. A serious burn would require serious dressings, changed regularly, and I doubt anyone carries enough specific wound dressings for it.

On another note, i found this in the course of reading the internet, anyone who ventures outside without one of http://www.gizmag.com/text-anywhere-satellite-messaging/28632/these is obviously a bounder!

And as for a defib http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-LSTART405-Lithium-Ion-Starter-Power/dp/B00NVK388W
 

Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
25
Europe
On another note, i found this in the course of reading the internet, anyone who ventures outside without one of http://www.gizmag.com/text-anywhere-satellite-messaging/28632/these is obviously a bounder!

The delorme inreach device mentioned in that article? I have one that I carry on the shoulder strap on my back pack. I use it mainly to keep in contact with friends who worry about me when I'm out in the middle of nowhere. Tho if necessary if I am injured in a sufficiently life threatening way, I can hit the SOS button on it and summon help.

J
 
Both of these points rather highlight one of the issues this thread has presented.

How far do people want to go in either direction. To me bushcraft is being able to get by on the bare minimum. So in terms of first aid, it's which end of the scale do you want to be. Fully equipped to deal with anything e.g a full kit, or equipped to create your own survival (e.g being able to re-purpose what you have, be it creating a needle out of something else, or a bandage out of suitable bark (or as a less extreme example, turning your hammock paracord into fishing line). The trowel is also such a consideration. Do you use the knife you have to sharpen a stick and make your own trowel, or do you just take a trowel. It's all a question of what you want from bushcraft. e.g the willingness to forego a trowel and just improvise, or the willingness to take a sleeping mat or improvise. As has been mentioned earlier, it is of course a case of experience will dictate what you deem worth carrying or not.

i would not want to rely on finding what i need around me in case of a medical emergency- the medical plants/herbs you hope to find might not be around when you need them.... . even otzi carried some form of FAK - www.iceman.it/en/node/288 .... plus there is the time factor to consider as well - it takes time to collect and prepare herbal/natual medices which you may not have in an emergency. so i would suggest carrying a small FAK - consider it a backup just in case... .:)


i also do not like to lugg around more gear then i need and like to practise *primitve* skills, but as my trips are solo trips and quite a few of them in areas more remote then UK i prefer to come prepared- better safe then sorry.
 
Both of these points rather highlight one of the issues this thread has presented.

How far do people want to go in either direction. To me bushcraft is being able to get by on the bare minimum. So in terms of first aid, it's which end of the scale do you want to be. Fully equipped to deal with anything e.g a full kit, or equipped to create your own survival (e.g being able to re-purpose what you have, be it creating a needle out of something else, or a bandage out of suitable bark (or as a less extreme example, turning your hammock paracord into fishing line). The trowel is also such a consideration. Do you use the knife you have to sharpen a stick and make your own trowel, or do you just take a trowel. It's all a question of what you want from bushcraft. e.g the willingness to forego a trowel and just improvise, or the willingness to take a sleeping mat or improvise. As has been mentioned earlier, it is of course a case of experience will dictate what you deem worth carrying or not.

i would not want to rely on finding what i need around me in case of a medical emergency- the medical plants/herbs you hope to find might not be around when you need them.... . even otzi carried some form of FAK - www.iceman.it/en/node/288 .... plus there is the time factor to consider as well - it takes time to collect and prepare herbal/natual medices which you may not have in an emergency. so i would suggest carrying a small FAK - consider it a backup just in case... .:)


i also do not like to lugg around more gear then i need and like to practise *primitve* skills, but as my trips are solo trips and quite a few of them in areas more remote then UK i prefer to come prepared- better safe then sorry.



edit/addition: about 10 minutes ago i banged my toe on the wall- i did not bother much about it, but just looking down i realized there*s a small puddle of blood forming... . now i could traipse around outside in the dark and rain, trying to find some plants to stick on but i prefer to dig up a bandaid from my nearest kit....
 
Last edited:

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
i would not want to rely on finding what i need around me in case of a medical emergency- the medical plants/herbs you hope to find might not be around when you need them.... . even otzi carried some form of FAK - www.iceman.it/en/node/288 .... plus there is the time factor to consider as well - it takes time to collect and prepare herbal/natual medices which you may not have in an emergency. so i would suggest carrying a small FAK - consider it a backup just in case... .:)

The irony of this thread is though, the OP actually says he is going to carry a small first aid kit with him... in my initial response, I completely missed it when I read his list and presumed when others were mentioning a first aid kit, that there just wasn't one listed. Then, in the tradition of the internet, the OP gets banged over the head repeatedly about carrying a first aid kit, essentially told he's an idiot not to take one... when all the while, tucked into his kit list, is a first aid kit! :lmao:

Rereading the kit list (to get back to the original post proper) there doesn't appear to be anything missing thats going to spoil a weekend (other than perhaps alcohol, but maybe thats just me :D ) so its probably best to do as Ged suggested immediately in this thread.... you've got the kit, get out there and enjoy :)


Anyway, I've got to dash off and do the dishes from last night or I fear I may be ostracised from the catering community... I am prepared, extensive first aid kit already in the kitchen and I've completed a risk assessment. :p
 
The irony of this thread is though, the OP actually says he is going to carry a small first aid kit with him... in my initial response, I completely missed it when I read his list and presumed when others were mentioning a first aid kit, that there just wasn't one listed. Then, in the tradition of the internet, the OP gets banged over the head repeatedly about carrying a first aid kit, essentially told he's an idiot not to take one... when all the while, tucked into his kit list, is a first aid kit! :lmao:

Rereading the kit list (to get back to the original post proper) there doesn't appear to be anything missing thats going to spoil a weekend (other than perhaps alcohol, but maybe thats just me :D ) so its probably best to do as Ged suggested immediately in this thread.... you've got the kit, get out there and enjoy :)


Anyway, I've got to dash off and do the dishes from last night or I fear I may be ostracised from the catering community... I am prepared, extensive first aid kit already in the kitchen and I've completed a risk assessment. :p


ooopps... seems i missed it when reading the post the first time...
 
N

Nomad

Guest
What's the cheap compass that you have? In my experience, some are okay, and some are not so good (difference between cheap and cheerful and cheap and nasty). A Silva style one with a liquid filled capsule should be fine - decent size to be easy to read, and will survive a soaking.

You might want to consider some other kind of pot if you're going to use a fire - the billy can type can be dangled above the fire and the handle is kept out of the flames. You can also set things up such that you can regulate the heat that the pot gets. With mess tins, you have to keep them at the edge of the fire and you need to ensure there's some sort of support to keep it level. They also don't have a lid, which means longer boiling/cooking time and a greater likelihood of bits getting in.

I haven't used hexi for many years, but my recollection is that they aren't very good (slow and messy is what I remember). A small gas thing is much better - the little 'rocket' types that screw into the top of the canister are small and light, but the canisters can be a bit of a pain if you need a bigger one, while the small ones are relatively expensive for the amount of gas that you get. The ones that have a tube between the burner and canister are more stable but a little bit bigger. Very handy for a quick brew and as a backup for cooking if a fire isn't an option. Wind can be an issue at times - find a sheltered spot or sort out a windshield.

Consider extracting the useful bits out of the first aid kit and putting them into a pouch, or get a new one. The LifeSystems ones are okay - compact and have waterproof zips. The Pocket or Trek are pretty cheap (£10-12), almost to the extent that the pouch alone is worth the money, and cover the main things (cuts, lacerations, blisters, pain). Add/remove bits as you see fit.

The little keychain torch might be okay for getting things out of the rucksack, but it might not be up to helping you to navigate in the dark, should that become necessary. I got one of these recently: http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/cree-technology-flare-led-torch-a76kf It's bright enough to get around in the dark, adjustable from flood to spot (very handy) and also has adjustable brightness (press and hold the button to ramp the brightness down). I would say the usable battery life is a bit shorter than the stated 3 hours - 2 is more realistic, so a spare or two is a good idea.

If you prefer boots in rougher terrain, I'd consider getting them sooner rather than later. In woodland, shoes might be okay on the paths, but it can get rough very quickly as soon as you get off the path, which is where firewood and campsites tend to be. Boots also handle puddles and shallow streams much better and tend to stay on if you go ankle deep in mud. I like the high-leg combat type boots.

I would strongly recommend getting a sleeping mat. As mentioned already, you might not have the option to use foliage, not only due to the permission aspect, but because something suitable might not be available (or everything might be soaking wet). There is also an ecological side to it - it's fine to be out in the woods enjoying oneself, but we need to be mindful of not damaging the environment unnecessarily just to please our backwoods sensibilities. There is a balance to find with this sort of thing.

A pair of leather work gloves can be a good idea. Sometimes, it's just better to protect your hands if rough handling is needed, and they're good for dealing with pots and fires. The all-leather yellow/tan ones in DIY places and garden centres are good - decent protection and still retain good feel.

You might find that the rucksacks you have are too small for the overnight stuff. Do some trial packs at home when you get the other bits and see how things go. They should be fine for a day's bimble.

Apropos the Fenna list (I'm sure Ray Mears has something similar in one his books, as well), don't forget a little luxury or two to occupy yourself with once the camp stuff is done. For me, that would be binoculars, and a pipe and baccy (something to wander about with, and something to sit and do nothing with).

As already said by others, you have just about enough to be getting on with for a day out at least (need a water bottle and cup). Kit choices are nearly always influenced by experience - a lot of it is about trying to make things function better, or with less hassle, and using the stuff informs that better than anything else. Aside from the water bottle and cup, if I were to pick one thing that you don't have yet, even for a day out, that I would consider essential, it would be boots.
 
N

Nomad

Guest
Both of these points rather highlight one of the issues this thread has presented.

How far do people want to go in either direction. To me bushcraft is being able to get by on the bare minimum.

There is no defined bare minimum. Taken to the extreme, it's naked in the woods, but I don't see anyone advocating that. Otzi is sometimes held up as an example of a person from a 'primitive' culture which relied on what's now called bushcraft. He was surprisingly well equipped. Even had Birch Polypore fungus which can be cut into strips and used as plasters.

Everyone's bare minimum, or preferred comprehensiveness of equipment, varies. There is an appeal in improvising and repurposing, but it has to be tempered with some practicality and possibly an appreciation that some things can be needed in short order. Personally, if I was planning to sew myself up, Rambo style (which I'm not), I don't think I'd be spending time fashioning a needle from a fish hook while I bleed out.
 
N

Nomad

Guest
You missed the thread where Dave wanted to go to Alaska then? :lmao: That was a very bizarre thread!

I didn't say it doesn't happen - just that I haven't seen it. :)

(I'll have a look later...)
 

hughlle1

Nomad
Nov 4, 2015
299
7
London
What's the cheap compass that you have? In my experience, some are okay, and some are not so good (difference between cheap and cheerful and cheap and nasty). A Silva style one with a liquid filled capsule should be fine - decent size to be easy to read, and will survive a soaking.

You might want to consider some other kind of pot if you're going to use a fire - the billy can type can be dangled above the fire and the handle is kept out of the flames. You can also set things up such that you can regulate the heat that the pot gets. With mess tins, you have to keep them at the edge of the fire and you need to ensure there's some sort of support to keep it level. They also don't have a lid, which means longer boiling/cooking time and a greater likelihood of bits getting in.

I haven't used hexi for many years, but my recollection is that they aren't very good (slow and messy is what I remember). A small gas thing is much better - the little 'rocket' types that screw into the top of the canister are small and light, but the canisters can be a bit of a pain if you need a bigger one, while the small ones are relatively expensive for the amount of gas that you get. The ones that have a tube between the burner and canister are more stable but a little bit bigger. Very handy for a quick brew and as a backup for cooking if a fire isn't an option. Wind can be an issue at times - find a sheltered spot or sort out a windshield.

Consider extracting the useful bits out of the first aid kit and putting them into a pouch, or get a new one. The LifeSystems ones are okay - compact and have waterproof zips. The Pocket or Trek are pretty cheap (£10-12), almost to the extent that the pouch alone is worth the money, and cover the main things (cuts, lacerations, blisters, pain). Add/remove bits as you see fit.

The little keychain torch might be okay for getting things out of the rucksack, but it might not be up to helping you to navigate in the dark, should that become necessary. I got one of these recently: http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/cree-technology-flare-led-torch-a76kf It's bright enough to get around in the dark, adjustable from flood to spot (very handy) and also has adjustable brightness (press and hold the button to ramp the brightness down). I would say the usable battery life is a bit shorter than the stated 3 hours - 2 is more realistic, so a spare or two is a good idea.

If you prefer boots in rougher terrain, I'd consider getting them sooner rather than later. In woodland, shoes might be okay on the paths, but it can get rough very quickly as soon as you get off the path, which is where firewood and campsites tend to be. Boots also handle puddles and shallow streams much better and tend to stay on if you go ankle deep in mud. I like the high-leg combat type boots.

I would strongly recommend getting a sleeping mat. As mentioned already, you might not have the option to use foliage, not only due to the permission aspect, but because something suitable might not be available (or everything might be soaking wet). There is also an ecological side to it - it's fine to be out in the woods enjoying oneself, but we need to be mindful of not damaging the environment unnecessarily just to please our backwoods sensibilities. There is a balance to find with this sort of thing.

A pair of leather work gloves can be a good idea. Sometimes, it's just better to protect your hands if rough handling is needed, and they're good for dealing with pots and fires. The all-leather yellow/tan ones in DIY places and garden centres are good - decent protection and still retain good feel.

You might find that the rucksacks you have are too small for the overnight stuff. Do some trial packs at home when you get the other bits and see how things go. They should be fine for a day's bimble.

Apropos the Fenna list (I'm sure Ray Mears has something similar in one his books, as well), don't forget a little luxury or two to occupy yourself with once the camp stuff is done. For me, that would be binoculars, and a pipe and baccy (something to wander about with, and something to sit and do nothing with).

As already said by others, you have just about enough to be getting on with for a day out at least (need a water bottle and cup). Kit choices are nearly always influenced by experience - a lot of it is about trying to make things function better, or with less hassle, and using the stuff informs that better than anything else. Aside from the water bottle and cup, if I were to pick one thing that you don't have yet, even for a day out, that I would consider essential, it would be boots.

It is indeed a silva (starter 8). Made sure not to get the cheapest of cheap. Again though, it is something that can be upgraded later. As mentinoed, it will be a while before i am in a location where i need a compass (not that easy to get lost in places like Abbey Woods..)

As to cooking. Certainly something that will evolve. It is the idea of real food that is one of my main reasons for wanting an outdoor life (and living somewhere where i'm not overfishing the chub :p). I've used hexistoves while camping before (both on dartmoor, snowdonia, and crystal palace camp site, and yeah, not graet, but great in a pinch. A fair bit of kit is more that "if all else fails" kit. Ideally i will end up with a bag big enough to accomodate a 2 person dutch oven and then i can just rig it over a fire with a stick and change height using notches). Howvere i have to bare in mind that i'd only light a fire and cook food once a day in the evening (I am a faster not a feaster, while working as a chef i would normally eat a banana at 9am and a banana at 6pm and that would be it). Don't touch hot drinks or tea/coffee so no need for boiling up water every few hours.

The led keychain torch is for as you describe. Little more than just finding something in a pouch etc, or emergency beacon at a push. Although i've got a spare red outdoors glow stick as well. But again, right now i'm not expecting to be outside come dusk (my university works trumps everything, although i'm meant to be working on an assignment right now but got distracted :eek:)

Shoes.. same goes for the rucksack. These have been bought predominantly just for day walks into the woods with the missus as right now all i own are expensive leather dress shoes. Overnight and the more hardcore stuff will be for much later down the line. University only permits me so much free time, not to mention money for travelling out.

Gloves is definitely on the list. Cold hands and cold knife is a recipe for disaster. Grip it too hard, slip up the blade, oh dear.

My luxuries would be in the form of whittling (hopefully) and something not entirely legal but i've never been one to give a damn about laws written for no other reason than making certain individuals vastly wealthy at the cost of everyone else.

-----

To the other responses. Don't worry about not spotting the first aid kit. I did state it would probably be better to learn what i should need than me listing off a big long list of what i do have. Lists often get skimmed. It's just natural.

As to the whole fishing hook comment, that is very much a worst case scenario idea, but why not have that option than not, even if not practical. You could lose your first aid kit somehow, then what :) I personally don't sow any wounds up. I just leave them as they are, let them scab over and heal over a period of weeks or even months. If i really need to stop the bleeding then it's simply kitchen towel and selotape for a day. If it were bad enough where you need stitches, and don't have your first aid kit, then you don't even need to fashion the hooks, just remove the barbs (or just have barbless hooks) and then hook multiple hooks along the wound (following sterilisation of course) essentially crimping it together. Better than nothing :)
 
N

Nomad

Guest
Meant to comment on the axe...

I wouldn't say that it's essential. For the diameter of wood that's likely to be used, the folding saw is fine, and if you need to get thinner bits, you can baton with the fixed blade knife. Some people don't like batoning, but I reckon it's fine up to a couple of inches or so in diameter. The forces required are lower (less material to break apart) and a well made knife should take those in its stride.

A thing about axes is that you tend to need different types/sizes for different jobs, so you need to work out what you want to do with one first. The notion of using one to split thick logs is a bit moot in the typical bushy scenario because the logs need to be cut square, which means a bigger saw than the Laplander. In other words, even more kit, and of debateable value if you're only doing it once or twice (you're not there to do forestry work or build log cabins, right?). Moreover, if what you want is firewood sized stuff, you just collect that instead. For the most part, dead wood up to about 2" can be broken by pulling against a knee, propping it on something and giving it a stomp (watch out for bits flying off), or wedging it in a fork in a handy tree and pulling against a fulcrum.

You don't need to spend 80 quid on an axe - plenty of good choices up to £40 or so. Decent camp hatchets can be had for around 20 quid. Budget for a mask/sheath.

If you do decide to get one, it's very important to learn how to use an axe safely. Mistakes can happen, and getting things wrong with an axe can be very nasty. Often, general bushcraft courses not only don't cover axe use, they specifically disallow them to be brought to the course. (Imagine being an instructor trying to keep 8 townie axe-swinging bushcraft noobs under control...)
 
N

Nomad

Guest
A basic Silva compass is absolutely fine. For bimbling about in the woods, a quick reference for north to reorient yourself is about all you need, provided you maintain a general picture of where you are and what direction you're heading in. If you lose track on a twisty path, check the compass (or note the time and position of the sun, etc). "My general direction is north west, so the camp is south east of here." You don't need to get into degrees precision, especially over shorter distances - 8 points is often enough. I use up to 16, probably with an error approaching +/-10deg, which equates to about 35m off target over 200m. In reality, the tendency is to follow paths, so it's more about getting an idea of the orientation of the path and being able to check that you're heading back on the same path later when returning to camp (or to the car park if you drove there).

Dutch ovens are quite heavy (cast iron). Stainless steel billies are much lighter.

You might not be boiling up for a brew, but you might want to sterilise water that you've collected. There are filter gizmos to do that, of course.

Good thread on gloves here...

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104762

They can be reasonably warm if you're actually doing things with your hands rather than just standing about. They keep the chill off and the little bit of muscle work helps to keep the fingers flexible. In colder weather, thin thermal liners can be handy, but can restrict dexterity a little.
 

hughlle1

Nomad
Nov 4, 2015
299
7
London
Dutch oven would be more for when I'm going out specifically to fish etc. Can't beat heavy cast iron for cooking :)

Just bought some bits and pieces (trousers, shirt, jacket, belt etc) as well as a real hammock (not going to go to a meet and just bring out a tent, boring)

I went for a woodsman x double lined. See what the Brits can do.
 

Mozzi

Tenderfoot
Aug 9, 2015
54
0
Brighton
No I don't take one to a supermarket as they have a massive aisle filled with medicine. although there is one in my car, and my grab bag, which goes with me regardless of off to the shops, walking the dogs, cinema etc. may never have to use it again in my life but if Im caught out.....Im the fool.

By ostracised I mean shunned, and it does happen. if I go out with someone for a weekend, I remind them twice to bring one. I carry enough supplies to treat two people easily but it might get lost.....


As for a pathetic mess of a country, I agree, but police will be called by someone if a crime of any proportion is committed. and to be fair to the fishery managers stocking fish and taking care of a piece of land is somewhat spat on when people disregard it.


And good! go ask them. and give them a good telling off, if you don't TRY to look after yourself, you'll always look a fool when someone else has to do it.


As for your last comment comparing two different outdoor scenarios, do grow something in your cranium friend, accidents are 100% indiscriminate on where they happen and how bad they are. remember that!
 

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