I prefer the alternative version ... "I may not agree with your opinions but i will defend to the death your right to be a complete (insert non-PC name)"
H + S hits the Scouts!
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I prefer the alternative version ... "I may not agree with your opinions but i will defend to the death your right to be a complete (insert non-PC name)"
:aargh4: I think the business of banning sausages and burgers is as lot of bull ...... When there is a will there is a way. One of our daughters is vegetarian. The rest of us eat meat. We accept her views and she accepts our. We never have any problems providing both for us and for her as far as diet is concerned. It can be done without having to drag all the nonsense about being fearfull that some people would not feel "included" because others eat meat.
B****y political correcness really gets up my nose
, and I wish the PC brigades were disbanded for good. I think those interfering busybodies are contributing more to separation and misunderstanding between different group of people than anything else.
It was the same about the Chrismas business. If I remember correctly, nobody asked moslem people if they were offended by Xmas. I gathered then they were not offended and could not understand what the fuss was all about.
Right. Rant over now. Better go back to work
B****y political correcness really gets up my nose
, and I wish the PC brigades were disbanded for good. I think those interfering busybodies are contributing more to separation and misunderstanding between different group of people than anything else.It was the same about the Chrismas business. If I remember correctly, nobody asked moslem people if they were offended by Xmas. I gathered then they were not offended and could not understand what the fuss was all about.
Right. Rant over now. Better go back to work
It's a sad fact that PC and risk assessments have become an integrated part of modern society, not just Scouting. When I was a cub scout leader we used to take our boys and girls on camp. We had a couple of brothers whose family were vegetarians, but guess which two were at the front of the breakfast line when we served sausages and bacon.
Scout leaders these days have their hands tied with all the red tape, making it difficult to provide the adventures that Baden Powell invisaged. The true meaning of that very first camp was tolerance of others. He had a mix of well bred boys and boys of low social backgrounds. His aim was for them to get to know each other and work together regardless of their background. It seems that the Scouting Association has forgotten that small detail, or maybe they have just failed to achieve it because again the PC brigade has won another victory.
Scout leaders these days have their hands tied with all the red tape, making it difficult to provide the adventures that Baden Powell invisaged. The true meaning of that very first camp was tolerance of others. He had a mix of well bred boys and boys of low social backgrounds. His aim was for them to get to know each other and work together regardless of their background. It seems that the Scouting Association has forgotten that small detail, or maybe they have just failed to achieve it because again the PC brigade has won another victory.
but not. Still a good quote though
Because someone who eats meat isn't going to contravene any of their beliefs by eating a vegetarian meal.
So you'd force a vegetarian to eat meat just because everyone else is?
Would you kill all black people just because your 9 mates told you they were bad people?
Paranoia.....
No, completely fair question.
There's a lot of talk about "Health and Safety" and "Political Correctness" blah blah blah on this forum, and it seems to me like a lot of people that like to comment on it have little experience of these in the modern world.
The amount of times that I've heard the term ''Political Correctness" imisused is just mind boggling, I'm sure only about 3% of the population actually know what it means - for the other 97% its a buzz word they've picked up that's used to rail against anyone that actually thinks about how their actions or words might affect others around them - which used to be known as being polite.
These days, having a pop at "PC" often seems to be an acceptable cover for being an unthinking uncaring mouthpiece that can't make up his own mind about anything that he hasn't read in the Daily Mail or Express.
I don't care.
What's next, "tree hugger"? "Bleeding heart"? "Pinko lefty scum"?
I don't want to invite any ill feeling, but if there's one thing that winds me up more than anything in this modern world is people believing everything they read, hear or are presented. Without actually considering the facts, thinking about them for a moment and considering the agenda of those behind the statements.
I'm not telling anyone what to think, I'm just asking them to do so....
"Free your mind, and the rest will follow" :- En Vogue.
Vegetarians make a decision to eat a particular diet, religious groups generally don't but in both cases people should be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions without forcing the mainstream to bend to their will.
as an aside almost every meal I've ever eaten had some vegetable components.
My guess is the original article is not necessarily very accurate but written to exaggerate the facts and get this sort of response.
I was flicking through the channels on the goggle box last night and stumbled across some people trying to skin rabbits (an awful lot of squealing from the people not the rabbits) I'm pretty sure one of them was vegetarian but I would guess none of them had been in Stovie's scouts (big brother BTW).
Cheers Roy
as an aside almost every meal I've ever eaten had some vegetable components.
My guess is the original article is not necessarily very accurate but written to exaggerate the facts and get this sort of response.
I was flicking through the channels on the goggle box last night and stumbled across some people trying to skin rabbits (an awful lot of squealing from the people not the rabbits) I'm pretty sure one of them was vegetarian but I would guess none of them had been in Stovie's scouts (big brother BTW).
Cheers Roy
dommy - what you are doing is suggesting that because everyone elses views on this thread do not agree with yours, then we are all some brainless troop of zombies unable to think for ourselves. i read a newspaper - i don't form my life around it. and as for having little experience, this forum has scout leaders, ex-forces, ex-police etc who i'm positive all have, dare i say, as much or even more experience than you of the increasing impact of PC/H&S/whatever term in todays society. i myself worked in Remploy for 17 years with a wide variety of disabled people, 9 of those years as a union rep and H&S official, and could type all night about the ridiculous rules and regs that were imposed on an almost daily basis, so i for one have direct and relevant experience on the subject in question. the article i linked to in my first post is hardly a sensationalised view - it isn't 'aliens infiltrate scouts and feed on our newborns', so why you think it is another typical piece of media drivel is beyond me.
to suggest that the vegetarian minority should eat meat to appease the rest is a puerile comment - there is no suggestion that it is the fault of the minority that this situation arose - what the article highlights is the hog-tying of groups such as the scouts into enforcing these rules, - the comprimise is that vegetarian and meat-eating preferences are equally catered for. and incidentally - 'kill black people????? *** kind of relevant example is that?
the fact that you accuse anyone against the PC train of thought as being an 'unthinking, uncaring mouthpiece' exactly proves the point of people being scared to bring up this subject for fear of being labelled in the way you have done so with that comment.
and if you don't want to invite ill feeling then i would suggest that you are the one who needs to think a bit more - from the inflamatory nature of your post, i feel far happier with my thoughts and reasoning than you should.
oh, and by the way, the quote was Voltaire
to suggest that the vegetarian minority should eat meat to appease the rest is a puerile comment - there is no suggestion that it is the fault of the minority that this situation arose - what the article highlights is the hog-tying of groups such as the scouts into enforcing these rules, - the comprimise is that vegetarian and meat-eating preferences are equally catered for. and incidentally - 'kill black people????? *** kind of relevant example is that?
the fact that you accuse anyone against the PC train of thought as being an 'unthinking, uncaring mouthpiece' exactly proves the point of people being scared to bring up this subject for fear of being labelled in the way you have done so with that comment.
and if you don't want to invite ill feeling then i would suggest that you are the one who needs to think a bit more - from the inflamatory nature of your post, i feel far happier with my thoughts and reasoning than you should.
oh, and by the way, the quote was Voltaire
Voltaire may not have actually said it - my fault for relying on my memory.
A bit more research suggests that it is attributed to Voltaire, but may have been one of those quotes that builds up like a legend as the sort of thing that he would probably have said (e.g. I don't think that Holmes ever said "Elementary my dear Watson" in any of Conan-Doyles' books).
Heres a possible explanation of how the quote was attributed: http://ask.yahoo.com/20030331.html
Geoff
A bit more research suggests that it is attributed to Voltaire, but may have been one of those quotes that builds up like a legend as the sort of thing that he would probably have said (e.g. I don't think that Holmes ever said "Elementary my dear Watson" in any of Conan-Doyles' books).
Heres a possible explanation of how the quote was attributed: http://ask.yahoo.com/20030331.html
Geoff
I love a good debate. This is the kind of thing I would thrash out over a few beers with my mates, and I mean to argue it in the same tone - no offence meant.
No and no, I don't think that is the logical extent of any of the anti-PC arguments put so far. Invite veggies to be present while those for whom meat eating forms part of their culture do so? Yes.
And I also agree with the linguistic applications of PC (disabled person instead of invalid etc.) The following is quite interesting in terms of 'misuse', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness.
I think I'd have to agree that the use of the term has historical roots that are fairly unsavoury, but its modern usage is broad and well understood, if fairly undefinable. I would say the term is completely relevant to the meat/veggie part of the discussion and possibly, given its accepted usage, to H+S, litiginous society etc. etc.
I agree entirely, but I don't get the impression that anyone here has demonstrated 'unthinking, uncaring'. They've just expressed a difference of opinion on what constitutes the most 'thinking, caring' solution to groups with differing diets living together.
You know you're having a good pub discussion when you can go from Voltaire to En Vogue, I hope we can all agree on that.
"Love on a mountain top" - Sinita.
I never was very good at coming up with relevant quotes
No and no, I don't think that is the logical extent of any of the anti-PC arguments put so far. Invite veggies to be present while those for whom meat eating forms part of their culture do so? Yes.
I doubt there is a single person here who hasn't come across H+S nitpicking or PC at some point and has some experience to add to the debate.
I totally agree with the latter politeness point, but look at it the other way round. I have sat through some fairly sordid ordeals when a guest of other cultures in order to be polite. I also felt that it was entirely polite of those involved to invite me along to something that was part of their culture, (albeit abhorrent to me). Being invited made me feel included, even though I didn't participate.
And I also agree with the linguistic applications of PC (disabled person instead of invalid etc.) The following is quite interesting in terms of 'misuse', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness.
I think I'd have to agree that the use of the term has historical roots that are fairly unsavoury, but its modern usage is broad and well understood, if fairly undefinable. I would say the term is completely relevant to the meat/veggie part of the discussion and possibly, given its accepted usage, to H+S, litiginous society etc. etc.
I agree entirely, but I don't get the impression that anyone here has demonstrated 'unthinking, uncaring'. They've just expressed a difference of opinion on what constitutes the most 'thinking, caring' solution to groups with differing diets living together.
You know you're having a good pub discussion when you can go from Voltaire to En Vogue, I hope we can all agree on that.
"Love on a mountain top" - Sinita.
I never was very good at coming up with relevant quotes
I'm not going to get into the who's right and who's wrong argument that this sems to be becoming, quite frankly because I can't be ar... I mean bothered
What I would like to say is this.. I can remember doing pretty much all the things that Mr Dazzler recounts from his scouting days, and I enjoyed my time in the Cubs, the Scouts and the Venture Scouts enormously.
I also seem to recall that those experiences came to me at a time in my life when I was impressionable, perhaps a little less so than some of my peers at the time (at least I like to think so) but still at an age where I could very quickly become embittered if I thought that i was being done wrong by. To have attended ANY sort of camp and then been told that there were no bangers to cook on sticks because "Jimmy's a vegetarian and we didn't want to offend him.." would have led to anything but racial harmony amonst the group. Little Jimmy would NOT have had a happy camp that year.
If Jimmy didn't want to eat a sausage, then thats fine by us (all the more for us!) but to deny us ours on his account would not have gone down well at all.
What impressions did those meat-eating boys and girls who attended the Jamboree get of fairness, or, for that matter, vegetarians ?
The fact is that for the Scout Law (particularly line #7) to work for the group, ALL the members of that group need to adhere to it and respect the rights and beliefs of the others. That a minority should influence a majorities tradition to the point where it becomes a non-event altogether is both ludicrous and, in my mind, counter-productive.
What I would like to say is this.. I can remember doing pretty much all the things that Mr Dazzler recounts from his scouting days, and I enjoyed my time in the Cubs, the Scouts and the Venture Scouts enormously.
I also seem to recall that those experiences came to me at a time in my life when I was impressionable, perhaps a little less so than some of my peers at the time (at least I like to think so) but still at an age where I could very quickly become embittered if I thought that i was being done wrong by. To have attended ANY sort of camp and then been told that there were no bangers to cook on sticks because "Jimmy's a vegetarian and we didn't want to offend him.." would have led to anything but racial harmony amonst the group. Little Jimmy would NOT have had a happy camp that year.
If Jimmy didn't want to eat a sausage, then thats fine by us (all the more for us!) but to deny us ours on his account would not have gone down well at all.
What impressions did those meat-eating boys and girls who attended the Jamboree get of fairness, or, for that matter, vegetarians ?
The fact is that for the Scout Law (particularly line #7) to work for the group, ALL the members of that group need to adhere to it and respect the rights and beliefs of the others. That a minority should influence a majorities tradition to the point where it becomes a non-event altogether is both ludicrous and, in my mind, counter-productive.
EdS
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
OT but as far as Xmas card go last year of those I got form people with a faith 1 was from a Hindu, 1 a Muslim, 1 Christian (happy clapper) and 3 pagan. Plus a couple other from those that just like tat. Go figure
Me I sent 0 but that is because a) I don't believe in it and b) I'm a tight sod. (or as is the PC term off Yorkshire extraction)
Me I sent 0 but that is because a) I don't believe in it and b) I'm a tight sod. (or as is the PC term off Yorkshire extraction)
Hi Dommy I read the daily mail sometines, so I must be a monster
I am not paranoid, but I think anyone who sees any virtue or value in being compelled against ones better judgement and common sense, to aqciiuesce to the post modern permissive collective morality otherwise known as political correctness, probably is . Which arrogant *****decides what is correct anyway? Do you think you are the person, or do you ever think you could be wrong? If you look at the ariginal article dommy you will see that the decision to feed with vegiatarian food was based on "not wanting to offend minority faith's" grounds, not simple organisational logistics as you seem to think. I think you must work in an industry that strongly promotes PC speak culture (eg education industry, sociology industry, local government industry, green industry, media industry or the like), as I think only someone whose job depends on it would defennd it with such admirable if misplaced enthusiasm. If PC is such a good thing why do normal people resent it so much? Are you really so stupid as to think that all the folk who resent enforced collective morality are somehow "bad" You must be well out of touch mate, because evryone to a greater or lesser degree has come up against the reality's of being told by the state what they should or should not think, say, or do, most recently thou shalt not smoke. The PC industry in its arrogant and patronising tone, makes the great mistake of assuming that any thing said that is non PC will lead us to ruin as a nation etc, and will breed up a generation of barbaric beastly imbeciles, only state approved thoughts words and actions can prevent that downward slide to anarchy; I mean look at the "equal opportunities policy" of any state run group/council etc. We do not discriminate against anyone on the basis of age, sex type, political view, religious view etc etc etc blah blah blah. In actual fact this whole PC charter is a 2 faced piece of hypocrisy, because it actually empowers councils etc to discriminate against anyone who disagrees with any of the flagship marxist liberal dogmas that the PC agenda consists of. And in any case why do we have to be PC to be approved of as "polite" People were a lot politer to each other long before PC came on the scene. If they had a jamboree in India would all the hindus eat steak and chips as a gesture to their visitors ? You tell me since you seem such a vocal advocate for political correctness just exactly why I should be forced to value other weird and wonderful cultures as much or even more highly than my own. Why I should be made to feel ashamed of my country and its tradition's, why I should be compelled to adopt state aproved social/political/spiritual values even if they conflict with my own ones and my conscience? Why I should be expected to blindly accept multi culturalism, why I should not speak up about the problems caused by immigration, overcrowding, injustices connected with that? It is very noticeable that the PC establishment (for that is what it is now) lacks a sense of humour seeing fun jokes etc as suspicious, and also has a mortal fear of debate again seen as something dangerous, because free and open debate will surely show up the PC industry for what it is (corrupt opportunism), so they would rather pretend that anyone who challenges the automony of PC dogma is a dangerous anti social fundementalist/fascist/racist/homophobe/xenophobe/bigot etc etc. They have to use the nasty perjortive terms to try to make the bogeymen go away Failing that have them on hate crime charges etc.
I am not paranoid, but I think anyone who sees any virtue or value in being compelled against ones better judgement and common sense, to aqciiuesce to the post modern permissive collective morality otherwise known as political correctness, probably is
. Which arrogant *****decides what is correct anyway? Do you think you are the person, or do you ever think you could be wrong? If you look at the ariginal article dommy you will see that the decision to feed with vegiatarian food was based on "not wanting to offend minority faith's" grounds, not simple organisational logistics as you seem to think. I think you must work in an industry that strongly promotes PC speak culture (eg education industry, sociology industry, local government industry, green industry, media industry or the like), as I think only someone whose job depends on it would defennd it with such admirable if misplaced enthusiasm. If PC is such a good thing why do normal people resent it so much? Are you really so stupid as to think that all the folk who resent enforced collective morality are somehow "bad" You must be well out of touch mate, because evryone to a greater or lesser degree has come up against the reality's of being told by the state what they should or should not think, say, or do, most recently thou shalt not smoke. The PC industry in its arrogant and patronising tone, makes the great mistake of assuming that any thing said that is non PC will lead us to ruin as a nation etc, and will breed up a generation of barbaric beastly imbeciles, only state approved thoughts words and actions can prevent that downward slide to anarchy; I mean look at the "equal opportunities policy" of any state run group/council etc. We do not discriminate against anyone on the basis of age, sex type, political view, religious view etc etc etc blah blah blah. In actual fact this whole PC charter is a 2 faced piece of hypocrisy, because it actually empowers councils etc to discriminate against anyone who disagrees with any of the flagship marxist liberal dogmas that the PC agenda consists of. And in any case why do we have to be PC to be approved of as "polite" People were a lot politer to each other long before PC came on the scene. If they had a jamboree in India would all the hindus eat steak and chips as a gesture to their visitors ? You tell me since you seem such a vocal advocate for political correctness just exactly why I should be forced to value other weird and wonderful cultures as much or even more highly than my own. Why I should be made to feel ashamed of my country and its tradition's, why I should be compelled to adopt state aproved social/political/spiritual values even if they conflict with my own ones and my conscience? Why I should be expected to blindly accept multi culturalism, why I should not speak up about the problems caused by immigration, overcrowding, injustices connected with that? It is very noticeable that the PC establishment (for that is what it is now) lacks a sense of humour seeing fun jokes etc as suspicious, and also has a mortal fear of debate again seen as something dangerous, because free and open debate will surely show up the PC industry for what it is (corrupt opportunism), so they would rather pretend that anyone who challenges the automony of PC dogma is a dangerous anti social fundementalist/fascist/racist/homophobe/xenophobe/bigot etc etc. They have to use the nasty perjortive terms to try to make the bogeymen go away Failing that have them on hate crime charges etc.Well, so far we have on here:
1) PC gone mad
2) An anti-meat secret agenda
3) the cult of vegitarianism
4) Accusations of being unthinking mouthpieces
5) Marxist Liberal dogma
6) The camp organisers being prevented from allowing ground fires due to restrictions placed on them by the sites owners
7) The organisers choosing to cook one set of food, rather than have to increase their workload by preparing two different menus - and giving reasons based on cultural differences.
8) A National newspaper pandering to its target audience.
9) Veiled and not so veiled insults being flung about this thread.
Everyone had enough yet?
'Cos form where I'm sitting this has gone way beyond the concept of "chatter" and moving smoothly into car-crash territory.
Do I want people to shut up? No. Far be it for me to infringe upon anyones rights to free speach.
Do I- on the other hand - believe that this is the best place for this sort of "discussion"? No, I don't. There are some very good newspaper forums that would be much more appropriate.
However, it's your choice; go on shouting at each other here if that's what you want - at least until the Mods have had enough.
We've had very few flame wars here - at least in comparision to some places - but they're seemingly getting more and more frequent. And every time they occure my interest in the forum wanes that little bit more.
1) PC gone mad
2) An anti-meat secret agenda
3) the cult of vegitarianism
4) Accusations of being unthinking mouthpieces
5) Marxist Liberal dogma
6) The camp organisers being prevented from allowing ground fires due to restrictions placed on them by the sites owners
7) The organisers choosing to cook one set of food, rather than have to increase their workload by preparing two different menus - and giving reasons based on cultural differences.
8) A National newspaper pandering to its target audience.
9) Veiled and not so veiled insults being flung about this thread.
Everyone had enough yet?
'Cos form where I'm sitting this has gone way beyond the concept of "chatter" and moving smoothly into car-crash territory.
Do I want people to shut up? No. Far be it for me to infringe upon anyones rights to free speach.
Do I- on the other hand - believe that this is the best place for this sort of "discussion"? No, I don't. There are some very good newspaper forums that would be much more appropriate.
However, it's your choice; go on shouting at each other here if that's what you want - at least until the Mods have had enough.
We've had very few flame wars here - at least in comparision to some places - but they're seemingly getting more and more frequent. And every time they occure my interest in the forum wanes that little bit more.
I'm not trying to flame anyone (I don't think I've actually seen any direct flaming in this thread, just some committed debate), and I'm certainly no Marxist.
Just putting across my own point of view, just as everyone has agreed is so important.
And for those saying I am "pro-PC" I've never actually said this. There are many things that people consider "PC rubbish" that I am also against, but my point still stands that most of the times these things have nothing to do with "Political Correctness"
Going back to the original article, here's a direct quote from the Scout Association:-
It doesn't say anything about "not wanting to offend people", the Daily Mail made that bit up! And this is exactly my point. They heard that no meat was served, asked the SA why, and spun it into another "PC GONE MAD!" sensationalist rant. Pretty much their stock in trade.
Again, I've been misquoted. I never said that "anyone against the PC train of thought is an unthinking, uncaring mouthpiece". My exact words were
So if you are one of those that thinks it was specifically aimed at to you (when it was aimed at no-one person in particular, merely a personal observation), then perhaps there was something that rang true for you. "methink the lady doth protest too much" kinda thing. Perhaps.
As I said before, I'm not here to insult anyone but I get a but sick of reading threads on the "Health and Safety and PC nightmare world" that we live in, when most of the stories behind such "lunacy" normally have a completely rational basis.
Good discussion though, albeit hard to read sometimes.
Apologies for all the fisking as well, gets tricky answering many points at once sometimes though and didn't want my post to end up as one big paragraph, I know a lot of people think FRAT when see it...
Just putting across my own point of view, just as everyone has agreed is so important.
And for those saying I am "pro-PC" I've never actually said this. There are many things that people consider "PC rubbish" that I am also against, but my point still stands that most of the times these things have nothing to do with "Political Correctness"
Going back to the original article, here's a direct quote from the Scout Association:-
It doesn't say anything about "not wanting to offend people", the Daily Mail made that bit up! And this is exactly my point. They heard that no meat was served, asked the SA why, and spun it into another "PC GONE MAD!" sensationalist rant. Pretty much their stock in trade.
Again, I've been misquoted. I never said that "anyone against the PC train of thought is an unthinking, uncaring mouthpiece". My exact words were
So if you are one of those that thinks it was specifically aimed at to you (when it was aimed at no-one person in particular, merely a personal observation), then perhaps there was something that rang true for you. "methink the lady doth protest too much" kinda thing. Perhaps.
As I said before, I'm not here to insult anyone but I get a but sick of reading threads on the "Health and Safety and PC nightmare world" that we live in, when most of the stories behind such "lunacy" normally have a completely rational basis.
Good discussion though, albeit hard to read sometimes.
Apologies for all the fisking as well, gets tricky answering many points at once sometimes though and didn't want my post to end up as one big paragraph, I know a lot of people think FRAT when see it...
Interesting discussion.
My points:
Who makes the rules for international Jambourees?
The visitors are guests and it is usual to put yourself out a bit for guests.
The "veggies" are not "i don't eat fluffy animal vegetarians",it is part of their religion and their culture.
PC started off as a way of cutting out blatently hurtful racist language.It has worked well.
Unfortunately it has been hijacked by the "Baa baa greeensheep" idiots and has lost all credence in the eyes of sensible people.
Last point.Sitting round a flower pot drawing,rather than having a song and a laugh round an enormous great camp fire is too bludy stupid for words.
My points:
Who makes the rules for international Jambourees?
The visitors are guests and it is usual to put yourself out a bit for guests.
The "veggies" are not "i don't eat fluffy animal vegetarians",it is part of their religion and their culture.
PC started off as a way of cutting out blatently hurtful racist language.It has worked well.
Unfortunately it has been hijacked by the "Baa baa greeensheep" idiots and has lost all credence in the eyes of sensible people.
Last point.Sitting round a flower pot drawing,rather than having a song and a laugh round an enormous great camp fire is too bludy stupid for words.
On the subject of what PC is or isn't, the Wikipedia article on PC has some pretty good quotes and citations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
Though its 'neutrality has been disputed' (which means people can't agree on how it should be written. The "Talk Page" for the entry also makes for interesting reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Political_correctness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
Though its 'neutrality has been disputed' (which means people can't agree on how it should be written. The "Talk Page" for the entry also makes for interesting reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Political_correctness
I know it were just having a reasonble discussion and then someone wants to step in and protect us from ourselves Why is it if you put your views, or enter into comitted debate as dom said, thers an automatic assumption it will inevitabaly end in disaster? Womble, dommy, please beleive me I am not trying to agravate, but as you can probaly tell these issues rile me up a bit I was perhaps lacking a little tact in the way I wordd things, it was just that dommy you came over as if you were one of the elite 3% of the population who were enlightened with a true understanding of PC and the rest 97% were ignorant especially if they read the mail etc. I never said you personally were a marxist, sorry if you took it that way, but PC does have a marxist social enginer basis, I learnt that over 20 years ago at goldsmiths college. Maybe the mail/express/sun etc DO distort the truth for a sale of a paper, but then other ones might do exactly the same gaurdian/independant/mirror etc its not just right wing journolists as are slective and spin there presentation of a story is it?
PS Like EDS I am a yorkshire tight wad/tight s#d as well. We are known for being blunt, even abrasive but also sincere as well. We dot always go down well in genteel society
I hope the thread dont get shut off best wishes to all.
Why is it if you put your views, or enter into comitted debate as dom said, thers an automatic assumption it will inevitabaly end in disaster? Womble, dommy, please beleive me I am not trying to agravate, but as you can probaly tell these issues rile me up a bit I was perhaps lacking a little tact in the way I wordd things, it was just that dommy you came over as if you were one of the elite 3% of the population who were enlightened with a true understanding of PC and the rest 97% were ignorant especially if they read the mail etc. I never said you personally were a marxist, sorry if you took it that way, but PC does have a marxist social enginer basis, I learnt that over 20 years ago at goldsmiths college. Maybe the mail/express/sun etc DO distort the truth for a sale of a paper, but then other ones might do exactly the same gaurdian/independant/mirror etc its not just right wing journolists as are slective and spin there presentation of a story is it? PS Like EDS I am a yorkshire tight wad/tight s#d as well. We are known for being blunt, even abrasive but also sincere as well. We dot always go down well in genteel society
I hope the thread dont get shut off best wishes to all.
OK, reading his posts in detail - I think dommyracer has a point in that we (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone) can be too quick to go into rant mode when we see anything that smacks of PC. When we all do it, all of the time - it then becomes a cliché. Once an argument becomes clichéd - then the power of that argument is lost.
It's a bit like the mob vigilantism against paedophiles - once they start attacking the homes of paediatricians! (as happened in Portsmouth not so long ago) then they invite ridicule and then their force as collective opinion is finished.
Having said that,I think some people (myself included) go into rant mode out of a genuine fear of absolute conformity - I'm not saying that PC advocates this per se, but it is certainly heading down that road where we all dress the same, eat the same, educate our children the same, live in identical dwellings, earn the same etc etc. Human beings are social animals - but we're not ants and we, generally, don't like being told what to do - or to have practices imposed on us. There is a difference between tolerance and conformity and if you try to impose conformity - ultimately, you erode tolerance.
In seeking to be "all things to all men" with regards to the catering arrangements, I think the Scouting movement dropped a ball (not to mention antagonised a lot of people!). It would have, perhaps, been better to embrace the diversity of the movement by inviting all of the nationalities to cook in there way, on site and invite a round robin - everyone can wander round sampling each other's fare - or even a competition - who cooked the best "camp food" on the night. We are, most of us, pretty cosmopolitan when it comes to our tastes in food and the opportunity to see how other nations cook their dishes "in the field" was well and truly lost.
As to the H&S angle? I will rant against this ad infinitum - the health and safety industry, in this country, has become a well meaning tyranny, driven by many factors such as the litigious society. A complete rethink on this is urgently needed.
It's a bit like the mob vigilantism against paedophiles - once they start attacking the homes of paediatricians! (as happened in Portsmouth not so long ago) then they invite ridicule and then their force as collective opinion is finished.
Having said that,I think some people (myself included) go into rant mode out of a genuine fear of absolute conformity - I'm not saying that PC advocates this per se, but it is certainly heading down that road where we all dress the same, eat the same, educate our children the same, live in identical dwellings, earn the same etc etc. Human beings are social animals - but we're not ants and we, generally, don't like being told what to do - or to have practices imposed on us. There is a difference between tolerance and conformity and if you try to impose conformity - ultimately, you erode tolerance.
In seeking to be "all things to all men" with regards to the catering arrangements, I think the Scouting movement dropped a ball (not to mention antagonised a lot of people!). It would have, perhaps, been better to embrace the diversity of the movement by inviting all of the nationalities to cook in there way, on site and invite a round robin - everyone can wander round sampling each other's fare - or even a competition - who cooked the best "camp food" on the night. We are, most of us, pretty cosmopolitan when it comes to our tastes in food and the opportunity to see how other nations cook their dishes "in the field" was well and truly lost.
As to the H&S angle? I will rant against this ad infinitum - the health and safety industry, in this country, has become a well meaning tyranny, driven by many factors such as the litigious society. A complete rethink on this is urgently needed.
I just love this!
Everything that is wrong in the world, can be said by the 100 year Scouting celebration.
Frist off that is not the scout promise or laws, they were PC'ed in the '70. Just as a point when did they change them again?
It is not (I repeat), It is not a Hundred years of scouting, that would be next year when the book was published. Somebody is going to explain to me sometime how they have spined it back a year. The best comedy in years has been the news reports of this celebration. Every time they recount the history, I need oxygen, and a hospital stay, I laugh so hard.
As a leader the only time I ever was going to cross the line, was when one of the lads went veggie. The pain in the you know what that was. Then someone dropped him in it and pointed out he was not a veggie, I was going to kill him.
I was taught to respect my food, by a veggie, on a survival hike. He took, an almost Shamanistic view of this dead fish, and everyone eat it all.
My favorite bit of the article is that the writer does not know enough to point out that this is not a scout camp, it is a jamboree, so what has camping got to do with it? The point is to get to know scouts from all over the world, not light fires. This is a historic, national trust site, that needs protecting, so lets did trenches, and light lots of fires. Leave nothing but your thanks, and loads of damage!!!
again, apologies for fisking but some good points raised.
I've read a fair bit about this supposed theory, and I don't buy it. It seems its pretty much dismissed by the current academic thought as well.
Nah, I fully agree there's a fair amount of Left Wing press that does exactly the same thing, which is why I say you've got to do your own homework...
This actually happened in my home town of Newport (rather embarrassingly)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/story/0,7369,361031,00.html
On the subject of conformity, I don't really want to see us going the way that Fin is saying, and I think there'll always be enough alternative stuff going on if people make an effort to keep it alive.
What I do find bizarre is when people talk about 'our' culture, I suppose meaning British Culture, being diluted or whatever by immigration and the changing face of our country.
If you look at it historically, we've always been a country of mongrel immigrants....
I've read a fair bit about this supposed theory, and I don't buy it. It seems its pretty much dismissed by the current academic thought as well.
Nah, I fully agree there's a fair amount of Left Wing press that does exactly the same thing, which is why I say you've got to do your own homework...
This actually happened in my home town of Newport (rather embarrassingly)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/story/0,7369,361031,00.html
On the subject of conformity, I don't really want to see us going the way that Fin is saying, and I think there'll always be enough alternative stuff going on if people make an effort to keep it alive.
What I do find bizarre is when people talk about 'our' culture, I suppose meaning British Culture, being diluted or whatever by immigration and the changing face of our country.
If you look at it historically, we've always been a country of mongrel immigrants....
Apols for a wee fisk as well!
I agree mate and your arguments are well reasoned. Our culture is a mongrel one - but I would argue that it has evolved that way over a great deal of time and has involved a lot of blood sweat and tears along the way. What PC seems to be doing is trying to accelerate evolution (almost overnight in some cases) by imposition.
In my original post - I referred to the smoking ban as a case in point: 50 years ago, the majority of the adult population smoked tobacco. Within that time, smoking has naturally evolved from a normal - even natural - adult habit, to an antisocial one. If the politicians had allowed evolution to take it's course, the decline in tobacco smoking would have reached it's end state. In seeking to impose a ban (albeit a limited one) I believe they have prolonged the smoking habit in the long term - people don't like imposition - it gets their backs up!
Well meaning (but misguided, in my view) PC initiatives (like the association of black police officers, or the muslim parliament of Great Britian - even the Commision for Racial Equality - Trevor Philips aside) only serve to highlight and perpetuate the divisions within our society, instead of celebrating the diversity - simply because they wind up the majority. And in a democracy, if the majority aren't pleased - there lies future insurrection.
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