H + S hits the Scouts!

[gorilla]

a few of you may have seen this article about H+S and political correctness gone mad.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=472655&in_page_id=1770

the last line of the article made me smile in a 'sad but true' kind of way

 

[Boatswain]

Time for a rant.
It's so easy for the media to knock organisations like Scouts without ever presenting any alternatives or offering solutions to problems, To quote Sonny Berger "when we do something wrong no one forgets when we do something right no one remembers".
Many years ago there was a group of Cadets(air I believe) who went missing on Dartmoor doing their DofE, for 5 days the newpapers went on about it how irresponsible yadda yadda. Eventually they showed up in the right place having gone to ground to avoid terrible weather .... in fact they did everything by the book, did the media rejoice in the standards that their leaders had set .... Ha.
Articles like this are never balanced otherwise they'd show some of the Scouts we see on here building shelters and skinning rabbits and doing the same stuff that inspired boys a hundred years ago.
Rant over.
as it happens there have been some articles in papers which have shown Scouts having a great time but without much substance.
Also someone pointed out to me recently that one of the best selling books currently on the market is "The Dangerous Book for Boys" which is full of scouty stuff.

Cheers Roy

 

[mace242]

The Scout Promise:

On My Honour, I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to God and to the Queen,
To help other people
And to keep the Scout Law

The Scout Law:

1. A Scout is to be trusted.
2. A Scout is loyal.
3. A Scout is friendly and considerate.
4. A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.
5. A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
6. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
7. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

Just a thought: If there are Scouts from all over who would be deeply offended by eating meat (Hindus and cows for instance) is it not totally in the letter and spirit of the two things above to - for a short time - not eat those things.

I hate PC for PC sake. Put sometimes you have to put the wishes of others first.

 

[gorilla]

The Scout Promise:

On My Honour, I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to God and to the Queen,
To help other people
And to keep the Scout Law

The Scout Law:

1. A Scout is to be trusted.
2. A Scout is loyal.
3. A Scout is friendly and considerate.
4. A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.
5. A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
6. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
7. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

Just a thought: If there are Scouts from all over who would be deeply offended by eating meat (Hindus and cows for instance) is it not totally in the letter and spirit of the two things above to - for a short time - not eat those things.

I hate PC for PC sake. Put sometimes you have to put the wishes of others first.

fair point - but sitting round a giant pot-plant writing poems for world peace? campfires and campfire songs form some of my best memories of being in the cubs/scouts. and as for respecting the faiths and beliefs of others who may find the eating of meat offensive - this respect only ever seems to run one-way - everyone else has to eat tofu burgers and nut cutlets to appease a minority - why can't the minority accept that others do eat meat, and be tolerant of it? surely veggie for the veggies and meat for the meaties is not beyond reach in a modern integrated society?
it has reached a point that you have to be exceptionally careful how you word any objection to this kind of PC nonsense for fear of being labelled 'racist' or intolerant. we live in a free democratic society, the scouts has always been a worldwide organisation encompassing children of all faiths and creeds, but only in the 21st century has it been like this

 

[John Fenna]

Too right Gorilla!
PC gone mad!
Fair enough for veggies to be "offended" by people eating dead animals next to them. GET UP AND MOVE ELSEWHERE!
I find that if I eat much soy protien I get ill. This has caused me severe dietry problems on exped where the caterers have only put such artificial meat as "Bean Feast" in the rations so that veggies and carnivors are treated "equally". When I was Staff for Raleigh Int. it caused me to be so ill I was evacuated after 1 month. With other companies it has meant that either I bought my own rations (biltong in SA is a great de-hy protien source) or gone protien free for a while.
Veg for Veggies - meat for Carnivors please!
I am not anti Veggie, just asking for even handed treatment all round

I have in the past, and possibly will be again in the future, a warranted Scout Leader and do think thatthe PC brigade have spoilt it for many - young and old - and respect for others is a two way street.

I would never be offended by someones belief system or dietry ethics or gender choice; why should they at mine - and make me conform to theirs?

PC is BS in many instances and (see above) makes me sick!

Common sence and politeness is totally different and the p*ss taking at risk assessing Scouting activities is plain stupid (unless the aim is to remove all risk which is stupid and impossible as well) as safety is important and risk has to be "managed".

Aaargh! Head exploding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John

 

[shep]

It's rare I find myself agreeing with anything in the mail, but this PC stuff is a real shame. And it has a negative effect on race-relations. The thing is, on-the-whole, people don't mind if those around them break their rules, because they understand that they don't share their beliefs. I'd bet none of this was initiated by the religious groups in question, but by the organisers taking things a step too far to avoid offence to people they don't understand.

The real trouble comes when poeple like the guy who posted the first comment on the mail site assume this an 'us vs. them issue' and blame the visitors, or ethnic minority in question. I expect the visiting scouts felt quite embarassed that their hosts denied themselves a normal part of the local culture for the sake of avoiding offence.

Political correctness is just another version of the narrowmindedness that breeds racism and segregation. IMHO

and don't get me started on the fire issue ...

 

[dommyracer]

for christ's sake people, how about you look past the end of the Daily Mail and work it out for yourself?

This has NOTHING to do with "political Correctness", and everything to do making things easy for yourself.

You prepare food for 300 kids, some of which are vegatarian.

Which is easier, preparing a single menu for everyone, or going around and asking each person whether or not they eat meat, then preparing one meal for one lot and one meal fo the other.

Its NOTHING to do with "not wanting to offend" people, its more like common sense on the logistics front on the part of the organisers......

 

[Tengu]

John, what were you doing going to these places if they did not offer you a proper balanced diet??

 

[mr dazzler]

I said on another thread I expect scouting is different now than it was 35 years ago? It certainly seems different according to that story. I mean in my day we lit fires, did wide games (some were rough energetic even aggressive eg being thrown up and through the rafters off a tarpaulin sheet oh dear ocasionally someone lost a tooth or got a bloody nose, one lad broke his arm when another lad dared him to leap off a tower and he went ahead....he took responsibility for his stupidity instead of blame the scout leaders or something). We built towers, rafts and aerial runway's (my God, can you imagine scouts being allowed to do that now?) we used axes, lit fires, used knive's, did community work, did first aid training, lit fires, built suspension bridges across the river, had accidents sometimes, (no parent thought of suing for compensation), lit fires, got wet got dirty, sang risque and raucous song's, caught fish one way or another, lit some more fires etc etc But so many of the lads I was scouting with went on to do responsible decent work in the community and in there jobs etc. Lads were from good homes and poor ones (at least financially speaking), but everyone did muck in and it was fun, safe and a good experience to let off steam harmlessly and develop character/common sense/responsibility etc-qualities regarded with contempt and suspicion in the feminist nancy people PC world that we are compelled to agree to now (enforced collective morality).
HE HE HE if our patrol (otter's) would of been around that plant I guarantee we would have set it ablaze somehow (if the ravens or kestrel's hadn't got there first!!!) and brought shame on our troop, our leaders, the movement, Baden powell would of turned in his grave, the Queen herself would not be amused. I mean which plonker set up that clean room non camp "camp" scenario any way? I bet it was a woman leader. That was part of the fun in scouting wasnt it, to get filthy and smelly without your mam on at you to get some clean socks on
PS I got the dangerous boy book for my 2 when they grow a bit, its significant it has been such a best seller, theres too many nancified bbc nannies trying to tell us life is dangrous and we should shut it out so we wont be barbaric any more, that sort of book shows they are wrong.

 

[mr dazzler]

for christ's sake people, how about you look past the end of the Daily Mail and work it out for yourself?

This has NOTHING to do with "political Correctness", and everything to do making things easy for yourself.

You prepare food for 300 kids, some of which are vegatarian.

Which is easier, preparing a single menu for everyone, or going around and asking each person whether or not they eat meat, then preparing one meal for one lot and one meal fo the other.

Its NOTHING to do with "not wanting to offend" people, its more like common sense on the logistics front on the part of the organisers......

Well thats a fair comment, but if say 10 out of the 300 were vegietraians why do the 290 have to defer to the minority? Why cant the 10 minority compromise to go with the flow of the majority? Or were the organisers trying to push a non meat agenda? Not trying to agravate but it is a fair question to ask. Or does asking it make me a racist/bigot etc.
And in any case when I was in the scouts we prepared our own food

 

[John Fenna]

Ah Tengu,
It is all down to earning a living and gaining experience that I could never get to enjoy by any other means....

 

[Tengu]

Well, if anyone tried to feed me muck made from SOYA they would get a punch in the snoot.

(soya is for making soy sauce, nothing more)

 

[-Switch-]

Just thought I'd add this little note...


A member of my family is vegan, and whenever he comes over to mine for a meal he insists I go well out of my way to cook him something free of all animal products in order to suit his unnecessarily fussy diet.

So whenever I go round to his place for dinner I insist he cooks me steak or sausages to suit my healthy, balanced omnivorous diet.

 

[Fin]

Ha! Good on ya -Switch-!

As to the article? It just makes me want to either:

a) Lie down in a darkened room somewhere and when I wake up, politics over the last 50 years or so, was just a bad dream and hasn't actually happened!

b) Eat my meat raw, bleeding & squealing in front of as many people who get "offended" as possible! If I was ever considering vegetarianism - this article has banished it for decades! It's like the smoking ban - I was seriously working out strategies for quitting the disgusting (and expensive) habit - then politics got involved. Now I'm trying to work out how I can have a fag whilst brushing my teeth!

 

[falling rain]

Just thought I'd add this little note...


A member of my family is vegan, and whenever he comes over to mine for a meal he insists I go well out of my way to cook him something free of all animal products in order to suit his unnecessarily fussy diet.

So whenever I go round to his place for dinner I insist he cooks me steak or sausages to suit my healthy, balanced omnivorous diet.

Sounds like a Viz top tip from a recent thread Switch.

Invited by vegetarians for dinner? Point out that since you`d no doubt be made aware of their special dietary requirements, tell them about yours, and ask for a nice steak.

Vegetarians coming to dinner? Simply serve them a nice bit of steak or veal. Since they`re always going on about how tofu, Quorn, meat substitute etc `tastes exactly like the real thing`, they won`t know any difference.

The worlds gone crazy and I won't even start on all the mad stuff going on because it really will work me up. - Remember the 'No Christmas cards or Christmas trees last Christmas in some schools in case it offends the ethnic minorities - Does anyone ban ramadan in case it offends Christians ?

As for the scouts - I think there should have been 2 menus. (surely that wouldn't be too difficult- just 2) The usual scouting fare (sausages, burgers etc) for the non - vegetarians and a vegetarian option for those who don't like or can't eat meat because of religion and understanding on both sides that people are different and entitled to eat what they like meat or vegetables. The same goes for the christmas cards christians have their festivals and other reigions have theirs. Instead of any banning of trees or cards there should be education and understanding.
One line in the daily mail article says - Quote - "We have been very careful to make sure food is provided to everybody's tastes and beliefs, so no one feels left out.
Well I bet some of the scouts would have liked to taste and believe in sausages !

 

[gorilla]

for christ's sake people, how about you look past the end of the Daily Mail and work it out for yourself?

This has NOTHING to do with "political Correctness", and everything to do making things easy for yourself.

You prepare food for 300 kids, some of which are vegatarian.

Which is easier, preparing a single menu for everyone, or going around and asking each person whether or not they eat meat, then preparing one meal for one lot and one meal fo the other.

Its NOTHING to do with "not wanting to offend" people, its more like common sense on the logistics front on the part of the organisers......

careful - using the word 'christ' may offend someones religious beliefs.
by the same argument, which is easier - everyone stopping this discussion to agree with you, or all of us expressing our views? it has EVERYTHING to do with bowing down to a minority for fear of being labelled in a negative way
nut burger in 1 pan, beefburger in the other - easy peasy
go and chant with your pot plant

 

[MikeS]

Political correctness is just another version of the narrowmindedness that breeds racism and segregation. IMHO

...

Here here, I think the vast majority of people are considerate of other peoples beliefs etc. We just seem in this country to frightened to stand up for what we believe in now adays. We must respect everyones views and not try to force our views on others nor should others force their views on us.

This reminds me of a quote I heard somehere (bound to get it wrong but the basis point is important) "I don't agree with what you are saying, but will defend, to the death your right to say it."

Mike :twak:

 

[Tengu]

Its high time those vegitarians realised they are a cult, because a lot of what they preach is nonsense.

(and that is by no means being denigrating to religion...its just religious people as a rule dont claim their stuff is science)

 

[Toadflax]

This reminds me of a quote I heard somehere (bound to get it wrong but the basis point is important) "I don't agree with what you are saying, but will defend, to the death your right to say it."

Reputed to have been said by Voltaire.



Geoff

 

[MikeS]

Thanks for the info. I will remember that.

Mike