Grand father arrested for carrying a knife

[leon-1]

You should feel ashamed, it's because of your attitude to following any and all unjust laws that the UK is now a police state (all good for your job though I'm sure).

This is a somewhat unfair point of view, the police have to enforce laws laid down by duly elected government. They have no say in the matter, they are duty bound. This is also a personal attack in many ways. Don't do it.

What you are saying is that employees of the government inlcuding the armed forces should just say no if they don't approve of decisions made by government. SO that would mean soldiers refusing to soldier, policemen not doing anything at all and so on and so forth, this then leads to break down of social structure as laws are not abided by.

Remember that the government is elected as representative of the electorate, in effect you are saying on one hand we want the government to handle things and bring in these laws and then I don't want the police to then act on them.

That does not make sense.

 

[leon-1]

Did the youth in question set off said flare gun? No (or even exist, I doubt it). Did the person you brand as McChav stab someone? No. Or are you the latest weapon in the UK's drive to precrime?

By stating this your are implying that doc blade is a liar, be very carefull where you go with this as the next time you do it you will be carded.

 

[Squidders]

I'm not an anarchist and i'm not in to personal attacks in any way but our government is deeply flawed in my opinion.

Sure, we vote for them but we get no say in what they do when they're in and they're all as bad as each other so voting for one over the other is fairly pointless.

We are having our rights eroded slowly, one minority at a time.

The penalty for murder should be enough without the need to make carrying knives illegal. If I was out to stab someone, the crime of illegally carrying a knife wouldn't bother me one bit. Like banning hand guns has stopped shootings.

It's just another knee-jerk law to satisy the sound bites and news paper headlines and will not stop people from being stabbed.

I'm sure the relatives of the victims will all feel better knowing their loved one or child was stabbed with an illegal knife... i'm sure it will dull the heartache.

And it is our responsibility to stand up and be counted when we as citizens don't agree. Because at the end of the day the government, armed forces and public services are there to serve us, the population. If they fail to do that, they are of no use.

Until I see a genuine attempt by the government to deal with the root cause of violence on the streets I can only assume they are not taking the problem seriously... but then why should they, they will be gone soon, replaced with another government and more inept or indiferent people who know they can blame the government before.

Such a shame we think this is ok.

 

[mortalmerlin]

This is a somewhat unfair point of view, the police have to enforce laws laid down by duly elected government. They have no say in the matter, they are duty bound. This is also a personal attack in many ways. Don't do it.

What you are saying is that employees of the government inlcuding the armed forces should just say no if they don't approve of decisions made by government. SO that would mean soldiers refusing to soldier, policemen not doing anything at all and so on and so forth, this then leads to break down of social structure as laws are not abided by.

Remember that the government is elected as representative of the electorate, in effect you are saying on one hand we want the government to handle things and bring in these laws and then I don't want the police to then act on them.

That does not make sense.

No it's not a personal attack at all, I am voicing my opinion that "stop and search" is not okay, so yes I will do it. Sorry if my point of view isn't shared by you but I have a right to make it (though I am sure in the present climate that will soon change too).

And yes what I am saying is that employees of the out of control government should not implement measures that are unjust, checks and balances and all that (sadly we don't have them). This would quickly rectify the situation. And in case you hadn't noticed UK society is breaking down, doing more of what we have been doing so far isn't going to change anything.

As far as soldiers go they are REQUIRED by international law to NOT to follow orders that are illegal. This was the outcome of the Nuremberg trials.

Maybe you should just be content to let me have my opinion and voice it.

 

[Lurch]

No, the police dont convict anyone of anything, only the courts can convict someone.

A police caution is exactly that, a caution offered by the police. It is NOT a criminal conviction. However, in order to accept the caution and go free, you have to admit you have committed an offence and sign a declaration to that effect.

Cheers Martyn. In reference to firearms cert holders we are always urged never to accept a caution as it will count agin you and may result in revokation or non-renewal. This is generally spoken of as akin to conviction. Seemingly not so, though in the instance I'm talking about - somewhat academic!

 

[Martyn]

Sorry if my point of view isn't shared by you but I have a right to make it

You have a right to make it on Hyde Park corner, you dont have a right to make it on BcUK. This is a private forum with rules of conduct. Your terms of service for using this forum that you agreed to when you joined, require that you abide by the rules and the decisions of the moderators.

Maybe you should just be content to let me have my opinion and voice it.

See above.

 

[spamel]

Martyns' point is spot on mortalmerlin. I agree with some of the points you make. Friendly banter and sometimes a bit of heated discussion is OK in these parts but as soon as it gets personal then it is time to back off a bit. Hopefully you take this as constructive criticism, I'm not having a pop at you. I can see you've not been here that long, so you may just be testing the water and finding your feet. BcUK is a pretty easy going place, but the Mods won't put up with personal attacks and flaming. HTH.

 

[DocBlade]

Many police officers carry nothing with a blade because it's against force policy or because they don't see the need. In my role I'm constantly dealing with things that need to be cut (be it seatbelts, rope, ect) so if I was ever challenged I would use the work aspect as my exemption.

With reference to you and your bag of knives and chisels. Yes it'd be the same reaction, your car is considered a public place just like the tube or bus. As long as you can justify why you have them with you and you're not waving them round then you're legal.

Thanks for the welcome

I am also assuming that police officers carry their sharps tools because it is seen to be a necessary safety aspect of their jobs that they carry "in case it becomes necessary to have one to save someone" and part of their uniform? I can accept that.

As to me and carrying a bag of sharp carving chisels and knives, would it be the same reaction from the police, whether I carry this in the boot of my car or on public transport when I don't have the car?

 

[DocBlade]

Did the youth in question set off said flare gun? No (or even exist, I doubt it). Did the person you brand as McChav stab someone? No. Or are you the latest weapon in the UK's drive to precrime?

No the youth in question (who did exist, and so did the overtime bill for dealing with him) didn't set off the flare gun, one assumes it's because I took it off him and gave him a nice pair of steel bracelets. Again the person I branded as McChav didn't stab anyone. However what possible reason could a young man have for carrying a kitching knife in his trousers (along with his drugs). A young man who had quite a checkered police record and when asked what it was for replied with "just in case I get rumbled".


And who said I was out errecting metal detectors? You have me confused with th BTP, a force who randomly mug commuters after making them go through metal detectors as part of operation Shield. The people I stopped and searched were for very vaild reasons and as part of an intelligence led operation to disrupt gangs with knives....

 

[Bernie Garland]

As a maker I'm Often travelling about in public place's with knives i.e. to and from the engravers ect,so i have asked my local force to put it on record,and always carry a business card,in the event of being stopped,

Bernie

 

[C_Claycomb]

Mortalmerlin,
Please heed what Leon1, Martyn and Spamel have said. You are out of order and frankly I am amazed that Leon has shown such forbearance. You may have strong views, but this is not the place to voice them in those terms.

 

[mortalmerlin]

Well you all want me to shut up so I will.... in a moment.

You all know that the idea of this man doing anything wrong is absurd.

Your rights that have taken the best part of a thousand years to gain and given away in a heartbeat will not be coming back anytime soon. No government in history has given rights to the governed unless it has been forced to. Your rights to enjoy the country side and practice Bushcraft will be taken away one by one until you take a stand and say "this is wrong". Forget your 3" non-locking blade that will be a fond memory in one or two decades unless you do something now. First it will be permits (a permit being permission to do something othewise illegal) for any knife outside the home. It will all sound quite reasonable at first. Then they will whittle down the list of people allowed to hold permits and the types of knives allowed until it does not include you.

Sorry if you think I am out of order but I have witnessed first hand the division and destruction of the UK's shooting and hunting community and do not wish for Bushcraft to go the same way. To this end I am very passionate and will speak my mind. If more people did the same we would not be in this situation or having this disscussion.

DocBlade, I do not mean to attack you personally. I am just as happy to fight for your rights as the next man.

 

[DocBlade]

And where have I said I am not happy to fight for my own rights? I know the law and I carry knives within them.

Please continue to fight that good fight though... From Belgium.

Alas I fear we are a tad off topic now.

 

[Wallenstein]

No government in history has given rights to the governed unless it has been forced to.

Really? Ask anyone who's just had a civil partnership - they might take a different view.

Or Jews, or Roman Catholics, or the Irish, or Afro-Carribeans etc etc

Unless by "forced" you mean "compelled by the electorate", which is rather the point of democracy.

Belgium's hardly a knife-user's paradise either - try carrying a locking knife to the supermarket in Bruges and see how far you get.

 

[leon-1]

Mortalmerlin,
Please heed what Leon1, Martyn and Spamel have said. You are out of order and frankly I am amazed that Leon has shown such forbearance. You may have strong views, but this is not the place to voice them in those terms.

Chris that was not forebearance that was what's known as having to work so I haven't been on here.

mortalmerlin, It was an attack and this forum is strictly non political, you have broken the rules and you are now carded.

 

[Minotaur]

Not sure if anyone has pointed this out but he took the caution, so his own fault.

Next!

Only a story if he went to court, otherwise he is just another idiot, who took the safe way.

The only reason lock knives are illegal is because of a court case, so he would have stood a good chance, espically if he could have proved he had come from work and was going back.

 

[statikpunk]

wow I am sorry I missed the bulk of this thread very rousing indeed (and i do enjoy a good argument). I have a lot to say on the subject. number 1,as for Mr. Read, I am a security guard by trade and I do not fault the guards or the officers (or DocBlade) for doing their jobs. I often have to enforce rules that I feel are silly regardless of my personal feelings. It seems like Mr. Read got off pretty easy I don't really know how reprimanding someone works over there.

number 2, here in the US we are embroiled in the same argument over gun control, and many of the pro-gun people (myself included) say "well, when you take all the guns away people will just start killing each other with knives, and then you will take those away and then what?" and here I am watching my countries own possible future unfold in front of me through a British looking-glass. I am a firm believer in limited government(all governments should be there to inform, and preserve, not dictate), as long as you are not negatively impacting someones life you should be allowed to do what you want, and if you do break that golden rule then the punishment should be severe. (the idea is to discourage the behavior, not limit the means)

number 3 and this is the one that really gets me!
I feel for mortalmerlin, yes he did get out of hand, and yes he broke the rules of the forum. so kudos to the moderator for handling it with tact. BUT with a capital B, I too have been admonished for speaking "passionately" on a subject (gun control over at bushcraftliving.com forums, a great forum also) It seems to me that every time a subject gets "heated" someone starts screaming "off topic" or "flaming" if the topic has moved to something else then that is what the topic is (the original poster just didn't realize it ) and if we, (bushcrafters of like mind) cant argue about it, then how can we ever expect our individual governments to get it squared away.
I am just curious if its culturally accepted by you Brits to end a confrontation before it starts (for example the Japanese are VERY non-confrontational, as a culture)
I'm not knocking anyone, just curious, Here in the US we enjoy a good fight (many times to a fault ) as a matter of fact it sounds like mortalmerlin would fit into my group of friends like fish fits with chips! (I'm the reasonable one!) I think as long as good points are being made and the argument hasn't boiled down to ("statikpunk you can stuff your head in a donkeys bum and whistle yankee-doodle-dandy!") then why should it be stopped?
It sounds to me like voice is the only weapon they haven't taken away from the Brits

anyway :AR15firin keep up the good fight, this post is off topic, and i will stop ranting, blah blah, whatever!! and if I'm totally wrong, lets hear it, cuz I got my typing fingers cracked and ready to argue

 

[Smudge]

The Law Sir.................. is an bottom! that said carrying a knife into a court building was daft!! I carry a SAK Forester every day BUT if I was knowing going to a police station or court building I'd leave it in the car.

 

[statikpunk]

The Law Sir.................. is an bottom! that said carrying a knife into a court building was daft!! I carry a SAK Forester every day BUT if I was knowing going to a police station or court building I'd leave it in the car.

what if you forgot (as 60 year old people are prone to do) do you think an arrest and a blemish on your record is an appropriate punishment??

I have actually taken a knife into a courtroom (jury duty) here in US on accident (no weapons of any kind are allowed in our courthouses) it is always with me and I thought nothing of it. they took it from me and gave it back at the end, no big deal, but locking knives are also not illegal in the US, so different matter I guess.

 

[durulz]

Well you all want me to shut up so I will.... in a moment.

You all know that the idea of this man doing anything wrong is absurd.

Your rights that have taken the best part of a thousand years to gain and given away in a heartbeat will not be coming back anytime soon. No government in history has given rights to the governed unless it has been forced to. Your rights to enjoy the country side and practice Bushcraft will be taken away one by one until you take a stand and say "this is wrong". Forget your 3" non-locking blade that will be a fond memory in one or two decades unless you do something now. First it will be permits (a permit being permission to do something othewise illegal) for any knife outside the home. It will all sound quite reasonable at first. Then they will whittle down the list of people allowed to hold permits and the types of knives allowed until it does not include you.

Sorry if you think I am out of order but I have witnessed first hand the division and destruction of the UK's shooting and hunting community and do not wish for Bushcraft to go the same way. To this end I am very passionate and will speak my mind. If more people did the same we would not be in this situation or having this disscussion.

DocBlade, I do not mean to attack you personally. I am just as happy to fight for your rights as the next man.

OK. I used to be a journalist for the Guardian newspaper, and probably, therefore, a bloody good anti-liberal/left target for a fair few members of this forum (God knows, my guilty, white, middle-class sensibilities leave me cringing every now and then). BUt I think you are way missing the point. Do you really equate modern Great Britain with a police state? If so, then grow up! Ask yourself this, would you rather live in GB or nazi Germany or Iraq under Saddam Hussein? Of course you wouldn't. That is no defence, of course, but you are so wide of the mark of how you think a police state works. It is often said that no government is more than three meals away from anarchy. If you truly think that GB (and I note with interest that you reside in Belgium) is even CLOSE to being a police state then you have no idea, at all, how government works. The current political climate may not suit you (which is, I presume, your immature reason for claiming it to be a police state) but it suits the majority of the population. You, or I, or any other member of this forum, may have a problem with that. If so, then tough! That's the way democracy works- the government tries to please the majority of the citizens. Is that ideal? Of course not! Do you/I/we like that? Clearly not, on occasion. But that's the way democracy works. A government by the people, for the people. But don't be so immatuer as to assume that the government of GB has anything in common with Zimbabwe, nazi Germany, or any other host of TRUE police states. The fact you can make such a claim shows the lie to your impotent little fist thumping. Don't be so silly.
Oh, and bloody good it is too, that the government has curtailed your's, and anyone else's 'shooting and hunting'. Totally unnecessary in a society where you can buy your meat and produce from a butchers (if you want to avoid the multi-national corporations and supermarkets) - people with inflammatory natures such as yourself should NOT be allowed to go hunting, quite frankly. Too dangerous.