Dogs - who owns what and how did you choose it?

[santaman2000]

She comes to her name. No training needed there! Took her for a walk today and tried off lead. Amazed that she just naturally wanted to walk with us. Is that a breed trait?

Is it a breed trait? Sort of. MOST breeds want to be with their people and others are more independent. It would be more accurate to say NOT wanting to be with you would be a breed trait. Likewise as Ken and Stew have said, distraction is also a possibility particularly in hunting or herding breeds.

 

[Paul_B]

That's what we thought but there was plenty of nature around us to distract her. It was her first time out on a walk and we tried the lead thing. It has been said before by some experienced dog owning friends that there's something about her. That she's naturally calm beyond what a puppy should be. Their lab puppies also showed natural gundog tendencies too. A natural habit of sitting with their human owners and not leaving them unless sent off to retrieve something.

Whilst I'm not saying my terrier pup is like those labs but she's got a good demeanour, takes to training very well and so far looks set to learn what we need her to learn.

Distractions were plenty today. Birds scooting noisily through the undergrowth just a metre from the pup that was behind us got her interest. Only her interest and no chase. There were signs of other creatures too. Nothing, just listened, looked, sniffed then came to our calls.

We're not so naive as to think it'll always be the case but she has the beginnings of recall training going very well. Treats work wonders. She understands things well. We did sit training. Now we don't need treats to get her to sit on command, even when her terrier puppy traits have hold (nipping play).

Recall to her name happens between me and my partner. We play hide and seek with our son but she is too good at seeking!

The walk was a very encouraging test for us. If things carry on we'll have a good dog I think.

P.S.the dog breeder friends both said they'd take her if we had to give her up. I.reckon they're thinking about getting one themselves.

 

[santaman2000]

If you recognize any of these, you're a dog person. LOL

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153106346018470

 

[Paul_B]

Oh no! Dogs never allowed in bedrooms.

 

[Nice65]

Oh no! Dogs never allowed in bedrooms.

Ours are, always have been since hearing the pain of a young dog separated from its mother and father, the rest of the litter, and the house it was raised in, only to be moved into a completely alien environment and shut in a room. I couldn't justify taking a pup home only to make it desperately unhappy. They know their place and have their beds. We have our bed.

Personally, I make the life of the dog as best I can without being over controlling. It's easier for us and them.

 

[Janne]

Oh no! Dogs never allowed in bedrooms.

Ours were. Dogs are psychologically pack animals, and want to sleep together with the rest of the pack.
Makes them happier, more content.

 

[santaman2000]

Oh no! Dogs never allowed in bedrooms.

I've had three basic categories of dogs in my life (some dogs that were a combination of these categories)
1) Working/farm dogs. These were rarely even allowed indoors. These dogs roamed loose outdoors doing their job.
2) Hunting dogs. These dogs also were rarely even allowed in the house. They were in working kennels apart from training or actual hunting. And
3) Pets/companions. These dogs go wherever I go; including the bedroom. That's a big part of the reason for having them.

 

[KenThis]

My border terrier pup has slept on my bed since I got her at 8 weeks.
My bedroom is on the ground floor and has a conservatory and access to the garden, so letting her sleep in my room was the best for me.
It's been icredibly comforting for both of us and I think helps to keep us both calmer. I certainly sleep better for it.

 

[Paul_B]

Oh she sleeps within contact but outside a child gate just beyond our bedroom and our son's bedroom. My partner had been allergic to several animals in the past but not our dog. However it's still not advisable to risk things.

The dog is happy where it is and doesn't feel happy crossing the line where the gate goes even if it's open. She has direct line of sight to our bed and through the open door to our son's.

It works well for us and the dog is very settled. Since that's the case I can't see anything wrong with our approach. TBH the dog often ends up leaving that post for another room indeed downstairs, then comes back up an hour or so before we get up.

 

[Janne]

You have open doors to your bedrooms?
What about 'noisy activities'?

 

[Paul_B]

Doors can get shut if needed.

It appears our pup just needs to be in touch. What I mean is on the same floor when it wants to be. Freedom of the house except two rooms. Not a big house so we're all close even if we're behind a gate.

Are we being fenced in or the dog fenced out?

 

[Paul_B]

The dog is starting to growl at 5 year old son. Partner is getting worried.

I know it's down to how our son is handling her. He's leaning on top of her, pinning her down. He keeps wanting to carry her when out and about (times when we would carry her). He picks her up with both arms under her torso but she doesn't like it. Plus he kind of dumps her a bit unceremoniously, almost dropping her.

I keep telling my partner to back me up by not letting him carry her, not letting him lean on her and generally controlling/re-educating his behaviour. My partner isn't having any of that but says we need to train it out if the puppy.

So who is right? Train the dog or child and dog? What advice would you offer over this growling issue. I think it's also heading to a bite. Serious I think.

BTW I said that if we aren't going to train dog and child then I doubt things will go well.

I remember a family friend with a young child who visited a family member with a dog. The dog would smell the child before she got to the door. It would run away and hide. The girl handled the dog like a toy doll. My relative was too polite to tell her friend to control the child (child was spoilt rotten). I helped hide the dog by sending the brat on a wild goose hunt around the house.

I fear our son is too close to that brat in behaviour. Our dog is a proper terrier so could snap sooner or later with purpose. She's just so patient but limits could be close to being reached.

Any advise? There's dog, child, and us two parents to sort out here!

 

[santaman2000]

Train them both, but from your description training the child should be the priority (if you don't train your son, the dog will eventually)

Regarding a "serious" bite, that's a matter of interpretation. The dog will "probably" snap at the child but not really try to hurt him. There will "probably" be no serious injury. However, your partner and a court will "probably" not see it that way. As for my own childhood i was fortunate enough both my parents knew it was my fault when I got bitten (more than once) while playing too roughly with a small dog. One such dog (our rat terrier) would snap at my feet when I accidentally kicked her as she slept at my feet, or would nip at me if I hurt her (accidentally) when playing too rough. That said, God help anybody who bothered me in front of her. She loved me and knew she was subordinate to me (even as a 7 and 8 year old) but she didn't tolerate being misused.

 

[Stew]

You are correct here Paul - the issue is your son, not your dog. I have had to educate my kids in a similar fashion (my dog is bigger so there's no picking up but there has been squashing).

Your dog can't talk so is communicating the best it can. Your son and partner need to understand what's going on there. At some point the dog will snap when it feels too threatened, hurt, backed into a corner, etc. Hopefully it will only be a warning snap and nothing more serious.

Your son needs to learn that the dog is not a toy, to learn to respect it and also what's it's teeth are capable of. In our case we also made it very clear to our children that the dog would be removed from the house if there was an issue.

I fear that your bigger challenge here is educating your partner.

 

[Paul_B]

We tell our 5 year old that if he continues the dog will bite. If it bites when older men will come and take it away and give it a pill to make it sleep forever. Even use the word die and phrase put it to sleep. He gets upset a little and is good for a short time.

Half the trouble from his side is he gets too excited and the dog does too. The other half he's possibly indulged too much. Diplomatically I'm saying separate them when there's an issue.

The other issue is the relationship with the lad is changing. School, etc but also he's got competition for our attention. I fear over compensation on that.

You know what, there's a recognised dog trainer locally who seems good (member of trade bodies ap something). I'm wondering about puppy classes or one to one training at home. My thinking is at home she might spot dynamics that even I don't spot. An outsider with little emotional investment could open our eyes and change things. Only a few sessions could do it.

Personally I think without a change in our treatment of the dog it could be affected.negatively for any other owner. I wonder if it's fairer to the dog to rehome now? I'm attached and we all are, but it feels like I'm the only one recognising problems with the dog mean problems with our handling of it.

BTW interesting reading about how outdated and wrong dominance theory is. It started with a guy's publication about wolves on the 60s in a research book. Since then he's written another 5 books consistently discrediting his first book about dominance in the wolf pack.

Further research.into domestic dog shows that wolf behaviour is less significant in dog behaviour. But even so dominance isn't inherent it's down to the deferral on a matter by another. The dog chooses to defer to the supposedly dominant dog over certain matters but it's been shown not to be about dominance more about getting the most out of resources.

I suppose the pet dog chooses to obey humans to get food easily. A large, powerful dog could rip us to pieces if we withheld something from it, but chooses not to (ok most cases). It's in the better interests to keep human happy due to resource distribution.

So this attitude of rolling the dog onto its back to dominate it is wrong and could be causing harm. Outdated meme is what dominance their is described as. A theory that passes virally into acceptance no.matter what evidence there is to contradict it. Like the MMR vaccine causing autism situation.

 

[Lou]

Wow do you think it is a good thing to say that the dog is going to be put to sleep to your son as a deterrent ? Especially if he is old enough to make the connection that it could his *fault*? That opens up a whole new can of worms that maybe really detrimental in the long run. And If he is, as you imply, rather jealous of the dog, I would then wonder if it is possible your son would not start provoking your dog because he has this idea that you then may 'get rid of him'?

It's such a sensitive issue. Maybe a few sessions showing your son how to treat the dog 'as a dog should be treated' would be time better spent than dog trainers etc.

From my experience bringing a puppy into the house opens up all kinds of issues with the members of the family and as such can be a real eye opener to the dynamics of the family. We suffered with all kinds of issues and the dog was the one that brought it all out in the open. The only way we could keep the dog was to work on ourselves and resolve the conflicts.

From my experience I would say that my dog reflects back everything that is going on in her immediate pack's lives, yes our dog has natural instincts for sure, but it's not just a case of putting her on her back to show her whose dominant. When it comes to pack behaviour, which is EVERYTHING for a dog, she only mirrors what she has picked up from her alphas, i.e., ME and my family and that means every single nuance of every single interaction I have with everything around me and even though our dog will soon be 4, she is still prompting us to work on our behaviour, most of all me.

 

[Macaroon]

There's a lot of cod behavioural psychology here, you're overthinking it all far too much at this stage; I thought that the two hundred-odd posts and all the deliberations were to get all this stuff sorted before you got a dog into the house?

In my opinion, and that's all this is, you need to get the ground rules sorted right now and make it clear to the others in your household that this is the only fair and responsible way to incorporate the dog into the family and that if they're not prepared to stick to the process the dog goes to a new home. There's nothing at all wrong with getting your boy and your partner to face up to the consequences of their actions and behaviour towards the dog, some say talk of re-homing and euthanasia are harsh but life is sometimes harsh and these really are the potential consequences of getting it wrong. The humans involved in all this have a choice, the dog can only behave as her instincts and your training dictate; the onus is on you to see that ground rules are set and then scrupulously followed by all concerned.

The other crucial factor to remember is that that the dog's formative time is very short indeed compared to the human timescale; most dog people think that about 12 -14 weeks is when all the important stuff is imprinted and stored. Yes, you can to some extent change some aspects of an animals behaviour well after that time, but you'll be hard pressed to change the underlying character of the dog, so all the training subsequent to that is much more difficult for the dog to deal with.

 

[Paul_B]

You mention alpha which its part if pack theory based on 60s research on wolves. It's been thoroughly discredited in dog behavioural research since then. The lead researcher who developed pack theory that uses dominance to explain wolf behaviour has since written 5 scholarly books discrediting his original book and theory.

If the originator of the theory does not believe it and most of the professional/trade bodies for dog training or small animal training also believes dominance theories cause more damage than they help. Then why is the theory and practise still going ahead? A lot of knowledgeable experts say it's damaging to pet dogs.

The other point I have is that a professional dog behaviourist can have a lot more insights into the specific issues in our modified family than I could have. Why is it better to struggle on, potentially causing damage, when a simple bit of money and time can release all that insight to.help the situation?

 

[Lou]

That's very interesting, do you have the names of the books? I'd like to look them up. And yes, whether the alpha theory is true or not, it's the dynamics of the pack that count, imho.

 

[Paul_B]

I've not actually looked them up but the references and summary of the books are listed in this link.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

There are other articles on this site about behaviour and training dogs. Two articles on the dominance theory and this one asking why it won't die.

Of course it's only an article from an animal behaviourist. I understand he's a member of ASAB which is the academic body for animal behaviourists and the publisher of one of the most respected academic journals on the matter. I think the fact it's an academic body not a trade body indicates it's not something you can buy your way into like the numerous trade marketing bodies for plumbers, electricians, etc.