Do we have any hobbyist bowyers out there?

[John Fenna]

The reason I am asking is that I am looking for someone to quote me an idea of a price for making me a primitive bow - Holmegaard/Otzi/Star Carr -ish type thing - of only about 30lb at 28" in Willow or other hardwood found in Mesolithic or Neolithic Britain ...
I tried starting making one myself but even scraping the bark off a Hazel pole I thought would suit the project was enough to make my duff shoulder play up a bit too much - there is no way that it would survive actually shaping a bow!
The bow would need to be very light in the draw - my shoulder again - but would mainly be for display to show school kids articles of Stone Age technology ... all part of my job at Castell Henllys Iron Age Fort but some thing I would have to fund myself as it is above and beyond what Pembs Nat Park would want to cover.... and it is a bit of a personal project as well as I am interested in playing with primitive tech
Soooo - anyone interested in thinking of a price to do this for me?
Some pictures of me at work, taken by my Supervisor...

 

[Van-Wild]

My lord, I'd love your job! Must be amazing to educate on a subject like that. Incredible.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

 

[John Fenna]

Yup - it beats working

 

[John Fenna]

The last bow I built - 2014!
The bow draws about 28lbs - enough to do my shoulder after about 12 arrows shot....

I made the quiver and pouch as well

 

[bobnewboy]

Yep. Make it all for proper satisfaction

 

[John Fenna]

Well - bobnewboy stepped up to the plate and said he would make me a bow
I will be forever in his debt as his superb efforts have given my a beautiful Elm heartwood bow that is a joy both to look at and to shoot.
I hope soon to post some photos of the bow in action
I have only put a few arrows (ancient and modern) over her so far (heavy showers at the moment and no real range here ... my garden is not ideal!) but I am already in love!

 

[TLM]

Looks good, I have no doubt that it is easy to shoot too. For the neolithic image a slightly rougher period bow might fit well.

 

[Broch]

That looks great; nice work bobnewboy.

I'm not sure @TLM, there is no evidence that Neolithic bows were 'rougher'; they were far better craftsmen than we will ever be (no disrespect bobnewboy). They were more aware of the problems of grain and unfinished surfaces causing weakness than we are. They would have been just as proud of a well finished bow as we are as well.

 

[TLM]

While very few neolithic bows have been found, I don't think I remember seeing even one long flatbow. I think we know grain problems as well as they but yes I suppose they appreciated a well made bow because at times that would have been the difference between life and famine. Most of their tools were not up to steel but flint and obsidian were if the material is available.

A long flat bow in medium draw weight would be one of the safest bow types.

 

[Broch]

I would have thought the bow that has been made is in the 'spirit' of, if not the same as, a Holmegaard bow (or even Tybrind Vig), and I am sure there would have been many variations on the themes anyway. Experimental archaeology has demonstrated that flint is every bit as capable of producing very fine woodwork as steel.

I would estimate that John's arrows are about 26"long, in which case the bow is around 50" long (say 1.3m) - hardly a long bow - I may be wrong, John can correct me.

I suggest the bow is a perfectly plausible Mesolithic/Neolithic bow and there is no strong evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

[bobnewboy]

Hi John, I’m glad that it arrived safely with you Sending handicraft stuff is fraught with the vagaries of delivery companies, but Parcelforce seem to have, erm, delivered.

I would say that from the photos, the brace height could go up a little - perhaps the B50 string is stretching a bit - but that really comes down to you and how you shoot. Don’t go too high though.

Having done some research in the last <mumble> years, I would say that earlier bowyers and other craftspeople were more than capable of meeting or exceeding contemporary fit and finish for bows and all other handmade things. Especially as they had the pick of the crop when it came to materials, plus the time and lack of distractions that modern life throw up. Very few things made from natural materials have survived the ages, and certainly not in their original condition, for us to be sure just how poor our approximations are these days. Looking at items/finds made from non-ferrous metals show just what a high level of skill was around in days gone past, when there were no machine or power tools to help.

When I answered John’s call, I was aware from his previous posts of his interests in very early weapons and tools. I am interested in those too. I would have really enjoyed to recreate Otzi’s bow for him, but unfortunately such perfect pieces of yew are beyond my means these days. So it was that with that in mind that I started originally with a nicely seasoned hazel pole, around 2”/50mm in diameter that I had harvested and dried some years back. It was my intention to make a long, wide flat bow with a decrowned back, self nocks and long fades.

It started well:

https://flic.kr/p/2mUwyGi

https://flic.kr/p/2mUyuTq

https://flic.kr/p/2mUwyih

…but then at about 24” on the tiller, it let go with a huge bang:

https://flic.kr/p/2mUWGDR

..a pin knot under the remaining bark had let go in shear, and the limb delaminated:

https://flic.kr/p/2mUWMEY

Oh well….a bit more kindling. Then I had a look through my stash of wood, but unfortunately there wasn’t anything that could produce a decent self-bow. I asked around my neighbours, and one of them had an old elm post (fence post?) that I could have. After a cleanup, the grain looked quite surprisingly good, so I went ahead, with a little piece of ash glued on to thicken the handle. That became:



and with the addition of whipped-on nocks - very clever primitive engineering, but assisted with a little glue in my case - the elm heartwood post became a bow:

(excuse the sartorial inelegance…)

John, I hope it lasts and suits you well. If I ever get my hands on a decent piece of yew, I will try an Ötzi-style bow, just not with the estimated draw-weight.

[edited: that's better!]

Cheers, Bob

 

[John Fenna]

The bow is 69" - shorter than Otzi's, which was 1.82m almost 70"
"In the spirit of" suits me fine as - like Bob - the Neolithic makers were using the materials to hand and no two examples I have found to reference are all that similar to each other ... This was the second stave as the first (Hazel) failed due to a fault in the wood and was originally one Bob's neighbour's fence rails ....
Bob generously made the bow for the cost of P&P and when I said that was not really right, he said that I could make a donation to my fave charity. A real gentleman!
As a £1000.00 estimate for MOT work on my car left me financially "embarrassed" (not that Bob knew when he quoted me) the price is right - though Ty Hafan will have to wait a bit for a totally suitable donation

 

[John Fenna]

Crossed post there

 

[Broch]

From a 'British' Mesolithic/Neolithic perspective, Elm is probably more authentic than Yew anyway to be honest Bob.

You probably know from your own research that Elm was one of the earlier tree pioneers to Britain after the ice receded being a tree with light wind blown seed.

 

[Broch]

The bow is 69" - shorter than Otzi's, which was 1.82m almost 70"

Ah, a bit longer than I had assumed based on your quiver length

 

[bobnewboy]

From a 'British' Mesolithic/Neolithic perspective, Elm is probably more authentic than Yew anyway to be honest Bob.

You probably know from your own research that Elm was one of the earlier tree pioneers to Britain after the ice receded being a tree with light wind blown seed.

Like the Mesolithic/Neolithic man, ya gotta use what you can find!

 

[Jay131]

@bobnewboy Bob, that’s lovely work and a very kind thing to do! I would love to have a go at making one. I once snapped a bow that had come back from Borneo and I did it with very little draw; I guess it had dried out without the humidity. How will the suppleness of that elm be preserved on John’s bow? Does it need regular oiling?
Thanks, Jay

 

[bobnewboy]

Hi Jay, I wouldn’t class myself as an expert,
but you could do what I did and take some in-person courses with good instructors in or around your area. I was very fortunate to have nagged some great bowyers into running courses - e.g Chris Boyton, Hilary Greenland and others. Plus there are some very good online resources, such as Del Cat, Clay Hayes and Thad Beckum on YouTube; and a wealth of positive help available on the forums at primitivearcher.com

Then you have to try it for yourself a few times to apply that knowledge. You WILL break some bows, but slowly you will find things working out. Materials don’t need to be expensive, but you need to learn what to look for and then you can make bows from many sorts of wood. You don’t even need too many tools, but see some videos for the basics.

The suppleness of the bow comes from several factors including:
- good straight grain, with few or no grain run offs at the edges of the piece
-using a suitable overall design for the piece of wood you have
- sufficient length in the limbs so that the bend can be spread out well and evenly without over stressing the wood in places
- careful, patient tillering; slowly training the wood to bend evenly by careful removal of wood in stiff areas, exercising the bow, and then rechecking. This is perhaps the hardest thing to learn and be patient with, as this needs to be done over and over again.

The oiled finish in this case was John’s choice. It doesn’t really add anything to the suppleness of the bow, but helps maintain a more consistent and stable moisture content in the wood, which helps a lot. Too dry = more likely to break or raise a splinter, too moist = slow shooting and more permanent set (poorer performance). I have advised him to apply a hard wax finish over the top of the oil to enhance the water shedding capability of the bow. He makes his own wax finishes so I’m sure he will do a good job.

The best advice is: make some, break some, learn what works.

Cheers, Bob

 

[John Fenna]

All waxed up now

 

[Jay131]

@bobnewboy Thanks very much for that. Got to find me some decent timber now.
Jay