Rowan and Bird cherry spread very efficiently with birds and rowan is quite hardy with temp too. Mainly just me wondering.
Archaeologists and Bowyers – Advice please
- Thread starter Broch
- Start date
Wondering is healthy 
but Star Carr had neither bird cherry nor rowan.
If there were no rowans nor bird cherries within bird eating/pooping distance, then there'd be no spread anyway.
There are two main routes for the recolonisation by trees. There were (three ? iirc) refuges in Southern Europe where the ice didn't wipe out the flora and fauna, but we're now pretty sure that there were some patches in Northern Europe which weren't constantly smother by the ice. Those helped the spread too.
The succession of trees until the eventual climax stage of forest growth took thousands of years after the ice melted, and Star Carr was occupied while parts of the UK still had ice. The last of the ice (arguably, there's evidence for it surviving in the highlands until the 1700's) c11500 years ago.
Star Carr did have the classic first wave pioneer species. Alder, birch, etc.,
The site is a peat bog, pretty good for the preservation of pollen and the like, and really good stratigraphy for dateable cores with the pollen within.
M
but Star Carr had neither bird cherry nor rowan.If there were no rowans nor bird cherries within bird eating/pooping distance, then there'd be no spread anyway.
There are two main routes for the recolonisation by trees. There were (three ? iirc) refuges in Southern Europe where the ice didn't wipe out the flora and fauna, but we're now pretty sure that there were some patches in Northern Europe which weren't constantly smother by the ice. Those helped the spread too.
The succession of trees until the eventual climax stage of forest growth took thousands of years after the ice melted, and Star Carr was occupied while parts of the UK still had ice. The last of the ice (arguably, there's evidence for it surviving in the highlands until the 1700's) c11500 years ago.
Star Carr did have the classic first wave pioneer species. Alder, birch, etc.,
The site is a peat bog, pretty good for the preservation of pollen and the like, and really good stratigraphy for dateable cores with the pollen within.
M
If people are interested, you can download the two volumes of the Star Carr books for free from here:
universitypress.whiterose.ac.uk
It has (in volume 1) quite a detailed discussion on the climate and environment, and, as mentioned earlier Future Learn are running a free short course on the work at Star Carr - it's quite a quick study and is a great introduction to the site, the Mesolithic period and the study methods.
White Rose University Press
White Rose University Press (WRUP) is an open access digital publisher of peer-reviewed academic journals and books, publishing across a wide range of academic disciplines. We are run jointly by the Universities of Leeds, Sheffield and York. We are committed to open access dissemination of...
universitypress.whiterose.ac.uk
It has (in volume 1) quite a detailed discussion on the climate and environment, and, as mentioned earlier Future Learn are running a free short course on the work at Star Carr - it's quite a quick study and is a great introduction to the site, the Mesolithic period and the study methods.
You'd think, but the environment was very harsh apparently - drove man out for tens of thousands of years.
The book referenced above goes into a lot of detail about some quite dramatic and sudden changes in climate, taking place over tens of years not thousands, that knocked back even the birch woodland.
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Thing is though, even with ice cover, there were still passages through the sea-ice, and shorelines. Life gets everywhere on this planet
and fishermen have been dredging up mesolithic style artefacts for a very long time from not just the North Sea (Dogger was an island for a long while) but from much further north. It might well be argued that the Northern hunters like the Inuit have an even longer provenance that was believed.
M
I am well aware of the main happenings during the end of the last ice age partly because the signs are here still so clear and I am generally curious.
Both rowan and bird cherry are insect pollinated as far as I know which would mean that a lot less free pollen around. The pollen record has been used to establish timing for agriculture here and at least the coming of spruce can be seen (relatively late) as the earlier pine and birches but those are wind pollinating.
I think the cost of Norway was partly ice free and that was one of the starting places for reforestation. Lemmings are thought to have survived on some of the high mountain tops as some tundra vegetation Norway's cost was also populated earlier as other Scandinavian lands.
But for Broch's project it is of course prudent to use what is known.
Both rowan and bird cherry are insect pollinated as far as I know which would mean that a lot less free pollen around. The pollen record has been used to establish timing for agriculture here and at least the coming of spruce can be seen (relatively late) as the earlier pine and birches but those are wind pollinating.
I think the cost of Norway was partly ice free and that was one of the starting places for reforestation. Lemmings are thought to have survived on some of the high mountain tops as some tundra vegetation Norway's cost was also populated earlier as other Scandinavian lands.
But for Broch's project it is of course prudent to use what is known.
Look it's simple.
There was no bird cherry or rowan at Star Carr at the period under discussion.
Not that there 'might' have been some, just not a lot. There was none.
Rowan and bird cherry are both prolific pollen producers. From where I'm sitting I can see four rowans and three bird cherries, their blossom has just passed and both are setting fruits. There was so much pollen that we can smell the trees. That's common with both. Therefore had there been bird cherry or rowan on site, or nearby, it would have been in the pollen record.
The pollen cores were very clear, they tied in very well with other known areas where very similar, and limited, flora was known from this time. There have been literally dozens of works done on the pollen records, so much so that now we can trace the temperature changes that altered the environment enough that we know that there were ups and downs in the spread of the fauna and that the site and human activity reflects that. It is the marsh land at the end of a glacial lake. Nowhere are bird cherry or rowan noted there from that period.
www.starcarr.com
Star Carr had been heavily glaciated, as was the area all around and to the North. Scotland still had residual glacial ice at this point. There were very few 'refuges' if any in that area of what is now the UK or the sunken land around it. It's flora was limited.
It is known, but it's very thoroughly known.
That's what Broch has to work from. Not what ifs or perhaps or maybes.
There was no bird cherry or rowan at Star Carr at the period under discussion.
Not that there 'might' have been some, just not a lot. There was none.
Rowan and bird cherry are both prolific pollen producers. From where I'm sitting I can see four rowans and three bird cherries, their blossom has just passed and both are setting fruits. There was so much pollen that we can smell the trees. That's common with both. Therefore had there been bird cherry or rowan on site, or nearby, it would have been in the pollen record.
The pollen cores were very clear, they tied in very well with other known areas where very similar, and limited, flora was known from this time. There have been literally dozens of works done on the pollen records, so much so that now we can trace the temperature changes that altered the environment enough that we know that there were ups and downs in the spread of the fauna and that the site and human activity reflects that. It is the marsh land at the end of a glacial lake. Nowhere are bird cherry or rowan noted there from that period.
Publications | Star Carr
www.starcarr.com
Star Carr had been heavily glaciated, as was the area all around and to the North. Scotland still had residual glacial ice at this point. There were very few 'refuges' if any in that area of what is now the UK or the sunken land around it. It's flora was limited.
It is known, but it's very thoroughly known.
That's what Broch has to work from. Not what ifs or perhaps or maybes.
This is not just for the sake of argument.
I did a lot of reading on pollen analysis and read quite a few results on various sites. The dice is loaded for wind pollinators, the only non wind pollinated (tree) species that seem to show regularly are various willows. On one article there was some speculation why it is so, no definitive answer. The one reason that I find easy is that willows tend to grow on wet sites and if wet sites are analyzed (as is done in pollen analysis) some is found. Rowan and bird cherry were not mentioned in any of the articles even though from the other vegetation present they should have been found. So we just don't know the existence of these species from conventional pollen analysis.
As far as I understand the smell of flowers is caused by various fairly small molecules (found at least a dozen typical) and is not connected with pollen as such except that they tend to coincide because the smell is an attractant for pollinators. Wind pollinated species usually don't have any smell though the pollen can be very irritating.
I did a lot of reading on pollen analysis and read quite a few results on various sites. The dice is loaded for wind pollinators, the only non wind pollinated (tree) species that seem to show regularly are various willows. On one article there was some speculation why it is so, no definitive answer. The one reason that I find easy is that willows tend to grow on wet sites and if wet sites are analyzed (as is done in pollen analysis) some is found. Rowan and bird cherry were not mentioned in any of the articles even though from the other vegetation present they should have been found. So we just don't know the existence of these species from conventional pollen analysis.
As far as I understand the smell of flowers is caused by various fairly small molecules (found at least a dozen typical) and is not connected with pollen as such except that they tend to coincide because the smell is an attractant for pollinators. Wind pollinated species usually don't have any smell though the pollen can be very irritating.
Whereas I understand your argument TLM there is better evidence of what wood was there based on the very many wooden articles found. If there was Rowan or Bird Cherry there would have been articles found made of them. The period we are talking about had only just moved from wetland scrub with more juniper than trees.
I am confident, based on all the evidence, that there was no Rowan or Bird Cherry - to insist there was is only disagreeing with a whole host of people far better qualified than me to make the decision. It is estimated that by the time the Dogger was flooded only 1/3rd of the plant species that had existing in Britain before the ice age had returned; we still have far fewer plant species than in mainland Europe.
I am confident, based on all the evidence, that there was no Rowan or Bird Cherry - to insist there was is only disagreeing with a whole host of people far better qualified than me to make the decision. It is estimated that by the time the Dogger was flooded only 1/3rd of the plant species that had existing in Britain before the ice age had returned; we still have far fewer plant species than in mainland Europe.
I am not claiming that there were, we at the moment can't know either way. My point was the apparent factual irregularities. So much for that.
We here are even farther away from anything that was habitable at the end of last ice age. How long does it take for a thrush to fly over the channel.
But if I look at the wood materials used here for various purposes for a hundred years ago these two are not very high on the list, birch is the number one. I think that spruce and pine are also way ahead. So while they are good bow material they were not used all that often. I have no idea why really.
I still think that your original question about the use of willow is very relevant. Urg-gurh would have walked for some length to get better bow material.
We here are even farther away from anything that was habitable at the end of last ice age. How long does it take for a thrush to fly over the channel.
But if I look at the wood materials used here for various purposes for a hundred years ago these two are not very high on the list, birch is the number one. I think that spruce and pine are also way ahead. So while they are good bow material they were not used all that often. I have no idea why really.
I still think that your original question about the use of willow is very relevant. Urg-gurh would have walked for some length to get better bow material.
Yes we do. There are no 'factual irregularities'. We are at the edge of the continent here. We have limited flora and fauna, that is clearly shown because the next bit along, that we can actually see from our coastline, is Ireland, and their's is even more limited than ours is.
Carr wetland ends up as peat bog.
Peat preserves. We have no only pollen analysis but we have the timbers of the trees that grew. There are only the usual limited species, willow, alder, etc.
That's two very clear, and in situ, records, and neither show any other species.
It's effectively a lacustrian site that is slowly progressing from marsh to peat bog in normal succession.
It was so wet even millenia afterwards that it wasn't used as arable land. So the strata weren't destroyed, ripped apart or intruded upon.
That meant that the peat, and the tannins within and the anaerobic background, continued to preserve organic remains.
I think too that if they're using willow or elder for bows (see Corso's difficulties) then that's all they had. It's a bit like having chicken feet as a regional dish. If you're very hungry you'll make something decent of food that otherwise wouldn't appeal.
Carr wetland ends up as peat bog.
Peat preserves. We have no only pollen analysis but we have the timbers of the trees that grew. There are only the usual limited species, willow, alder, etc.
That's two very clear, and in situ, records, and neither show any other species.
It's effectively a lacustrian site that is slowly progressing from marsh to peat bog in normal succession.
It was so wet even millenia afterwards that it wasn't used as arable land. So the strata weren't destroyed, ripped apart or intruded upon.
That meant that the peat, and the tannins within and the anaerobic background, continued to preserve organic remains.
I think too that if they're using willow or elder for bows (see Corso's difficulties) then that's all they had. It's a bit like having chicken feet as a regional dish. If you're very hungry you'll make something decent of food that otherwise wouldn't appeal.
From book: Excavations from Star Carr: An early mesolithic site ... by J.G.D. Clark and G. Clark
pages 58-59 "The mud of the archaeological layer has been examined for macroscopic plant remains ... Woodland Plants:
Betula pubescens
Crataegus monogyna
Melandrium rubrum
Pinus sylvestris
Populus sp.
Sorbus aucuparia
Stachys sylvatica
Eurynchium myosuroides
Campthotecium sericeum
pages 58-59 "The mud of the archaeological layer has been examined for macroscopic plant remains ... Woodland Plants:
Betula pubescens
Crataegus monogyna
Melandrium rubrum
Pinus sylvestris
Populus sp.
Sorbus aucuparia
Stachys sylvatica
Eurynchium myosuroides
Campthotecium sericeum
Please quote book properly.
I do not have that on any record.
If there were both hawthorn and rowan there why is there no other mention elsewhere ?
I do not have that on any record.
If there were both hawthorn and rowan there why is there no other mention elsewhere ?
This is what google gives: Excavations At Star Carr: An Early Mesolithic Site at Seamer Near ...
Tekijät J. G. D. Clark, Grahame Clark
As to the question: I don't know. Maybe the authors did not think it important.
Tekijät J. G. D. Clark, Grahame Clark
As to the question: I don't know. Maybe the authors did not think it important.
This link is to the range of plants found, with their zones, that were found to have grown on the site, during the period of occupation of Star Carr.
There is no way on this green earth that any pollen analyst or dendrochronologist would not have recorded finding evidence for rowan and hawthorn.
I have spent hours, days, weeks, looking down microscopes carefully picking out the individual pollen grains, recording them and their frequency, for just such excavations.
The unusual stands out against the background numbers of the most frequently found ones so even those are recorded as species.
The people who do timber analysis similarly spend hours working out just what they're investigating.
Frankly, I doubt google.
There is a later covering of washed in and blown down brushwood on the site. It is not in the same context as the site occupation.
There is no way on this green earth that any pollen analyst or dendrochronologist would not have recorded finding evidence for rowan and hawthorn.
I have spent hours, days, weeks, looking down microscopes carefully picking out the individual pollen grains, recording them and their frequency, for just such excavations.
The unusual stands out against the background numbers of the most frequently found ones so even those are recorded as species.
The people who do timber analysis similarly spend hours working out just what they're investigating.
Frankly, I doubt google.
There is a later covering of washed in and blown down brushwood on the site. It is not in the same context as the site occupation.
This was a from a pic of the page from the book: this is a copy of the search:
"https://books.google.fi/books?id=iY...=what trees were present at star carr&f=false"
I don't know if that is of any help.
It is not a new one. "cambridge university press, 1954"
"https://books.google.fi/books?id=iY...=what trees were present at star carr&f=false"
I don't know if that is of any help.
It is not a new one. "cambridge university press, 1954"
Thinking it another way, maybe somebody was teaching somebody else bow tillering, willow is one of the easier woods to work, that might also explain why it was never finished.
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