Carrying knives on public transport

Barn Owl

Old Age Punk
Apr 10, 2007
8,246
7
58
Ayrshire
Heard briefly a news report re, if found in e.g. A train station with a knife, then you're looking at four years even if a first offender.

Anyone have better knowledge of this?

How will this work for campers using public transport to get from place to place?
 

SimonM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 7, 2007
4,015
10
East Lancashire
www.wood-sage.co.uk
The law hasn't changed has it? As long as you can justify having the sharp, there is no offence committed.

Going camping, with all the gear in a rucksac would be a defence. Just pack your sharps in your rucksac, not on your belt.

Simon
 

Barn Owl

Old Age Punk
Apr 10, 2007
8,246
7
58
Ayrshire
It was a snippet I heard in the background whilst in conversation in the car.

Might have been politicians trying to introduce mandatory sentences type of thing.
 

woof

Full Member
Apr 12, 2008
3,647
5
lincolnshire
Not heard that, but if at a train station, you are being policed by the British transport police, who are more likely to stop & search, than forces on the street as it were. The BTP have mobile metal detector portals, which they will select certain members of the traveling public to go through. Always carry something that is part carved, this is proof that you knife(s) is needed,as the attitude is that you only need a sak if going camping.
Regardless of you reason for carrying it, if caught, expect to be arrested, and at the very least, it will cost you 3 or 4hrs of your time locked up. Train stations are private property, anf the BTP are in effect a private police force, employed purely to patrol & protect the public using the railways & railway property, and there may be seperate bylaws that exclude the carrying of knves on those premises.

Rob
 

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,992
28
In the woods if possible.
This has already been well covered on the forum. As Woof says, the railways are private property, the owners are entitled to ban the carrying of knives, and they have done that. They have the British Transport Police and they are entitled to enforce the ban. There is no "reasonable excuse" for carrying knives on the rail network, so things like carrying a bit of carved wood as an explanation are as likely to get you locked up for being a smart-ar$e as they are to help you on your way. Carrying your knife at the bottom of a rucksack full of camping gear doesn't cut it as far as the rail network is concerned.

Having said that, people on the forum have described being questioned informally by railways staff about their possession of a knife and there being no further consequences. I think in most cases common sense prevails, but the letter of the law is perfectly clear and I would not take a knife on a rail journey.

[rant]I can't remember the last time I used a train, but I can remember a couple of my wife's journeys very clearly. The last time she tried to go to Stansted Airport by train I dropped her off at Nottingham station. They took her as far as Grantham where they unceremoniously dumped her and she had to get a taxi. On the return journey they dumped her again, this time in Leicester, 40 miles from home, at 1am. The taxis were unable to cope so she had to get me out of bed to fetch her. Nowadays I won't hear of her taking the train when she wants to go to the airport. I take her on the bike so I know she'll make it.[/rant]
 

Ian S

On a new journey
Nov 21, 2010
274
0
Edinburgh
I looked into this last night.

As far as I can tell, the law in Scotland hasn't changed one jot - we are still bound by the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 (sections 47 and 49 are the appropriate sections) as amended by the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) act 2010 (section 37 is the appropriate section). To paraphrase:

1) Offensive weapons are forbidden

2) Bladed and pointed articles are permitted if the person can 'show.... a reasonable excuse.'

The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service press release states that what has changed is a 'strengthening of the current prosecution policy ' despite the rather sweeping quote from the Lord Advocate.

I'd suggest that those doing naughtiness are in deep(er) trouble, but those who are law abiding citizens are OK.

Please note that I am not commenting at all on the carriage of knives etc on public transport other than to point out that I can't see that there is any change in legislation, but do naughtiness and you're in deep(er) trouble. Please also note that the public transport provider may well set their own rules as to what you can, and cannot, carry on public transport, so they may well refuse to carry your knives (I suppose in the same way that my local bus company prohibits hot drinks and hot food on their buses).

Please also note that I am not legally qualified, I cannot give a legal opinion, and nothing that I say above should be relied upon - it is only my understanding.

Cheers
 

outdoorpaddy

Nomad
Mar 21, 2011
311
3
Northern Ireland
I travelled to my woodlore course in Sussex from belfast, taking one flight and three trains, all with a mora and a bahco laplander in my pack, just as well they didn't
search me. Ridiculous though.

outdoorpaddy
 

dwardo

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 30, 2006
6,463
492
47
Nr Chester
I gather though the BTP only apply the same laws of the land as the rest of us? Yes the Rail network can say "no pink hats" and the BTP can enforce this rule by booting you off their service but they cant bang you up for it, they are not a law unto them selves as far as am aware. The usual laws still stand unless someone shows me some evidence of a new law being passed through parliament. If they say no sharp ofbjects knives etc on their service then thats unfortunately upto them and if your caught then you can expect to be escorted of their premisis and service but they cant re-write the law of the land and have you prosecuted for carrying and UK legal EDC or a fixed with a valid reason, not a made up one. Ofcource if its on display even with a valid excuse your worrying the public which in its self is an offence.
 

Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,260
464
none
Heard briefly a news report re, if found in e.g. A train station with a knife, then you're looking at four years even if a first offender.

Anyone have better knowledge of this?

How will this work for campers using public transport to get from place to place?

its the difference between 'carrying' and 'transporting'....
 

nunzionuk

Full Member
Not heard that, but if at a train station, you are being policed by the British transport police, who are more likely to stop & search, than forces on the street as it were. The BTP have mobile metal detector portals, which they will select certain members of the traveling public to go through. Always carry something that is part carved, this is proof that you knife(s) is needed,as the attitude is that you only need a sak if going camping.
Regardless of you reason for carrying it, if caught, expect to be arrested, and at the very least, it will cost you 3 or 4hrs of your time locked up. Train stations are private property, anf the BTP are in effect a private police force, employed purely to patrol & protect the public using the railways & railway property, and there may be seperate bylaws that exclude the carrying of knves on those premises.

Rob

I have been through the BTP metal detectors with my knifes before, I still have them. But I had valid reasons for carrying them. I did spend 20 minutes in the back of a police car, but other than that they was all happy for me to go on my marry way.

But some poor teenager was off to the station for having a lock knife in his coat pocket.
 

Peanut

Tenderfoot
Jul 21, 2011
73
0
Essex
Hello,

This is my first post on here but I've been lurking around in the shadows for some time...

Perhaps I could offer some advice from the other side of the fence on this one. The term "reasonable excuse", as has been mentioned countless times on this forum, is down to the person in possession of the knives/articles to prove. The only proof that I would accept as reasonable excuse (bearing in mind I can tell the difference between a £10 rubbish lock knife carried for the sake of it and a £100+ handmade knife) would be where you were going, how you were acting, and what else you were carrying. If you've got a bergen full of camping gear and you have a knife in the Bergen, in a place that you can't get to without decanting the rest of items, I would be more satisfied than if you had a knife on your belt or in your pocket (after all, when was the last time you needed quick access to your knife on public transport for a legitimate reason?).

The same goes for your behaviour. If you're upfront about what you have on you and offer your explanation, it's a lot better than being searched and the police finding it on you, when you've not told them about it. I guarantee when the police find knives unexpectedly, the experience will not be one they enjoy, and you're likely to end up in a pair of shiny bracelets at least until they're satisfied to let you go, or worse, take you with them.

Also remember, you may be allowed on your way, but you have to leave your knives behind. This may not be a huge issue for you if it's an easily-replaceable £10 mora, but I have knives that mean a lot to me, both in monetary and sentimental value, and I certainly wouldn't want them confiscated for any reason.

I don't work for the BTP, but they are goverened by the same laws as every police force in England and Wales, with the addition of the railway bylaws. If those bylaws say you can't carry knives, then that's that. All the police have to prove is that you had the article with you in a public place, and that it was either over 3" and locking/fixed, OR that it was made/adapted/intended for use as a weapon (REGARDLESS of the size of the blade or whether it locks or not) Unfortunately with today's opinions on knives, many people automatically deem them to be weapons, so it'll always be an uphill struggle if you have one on you.

Please don't take my words as gospel, as I'm sure there are some inaccuracies, and I certainly don't speak on behalf of every police officer in Britain. The only advice I can give is make sure you have a valid reason that you can back up for carrying anything sharp/pointy in public. YOU have to prove you're allowed to carry it, not the police.

And remember, if you're drunk or acting like an idiot, your excuse will not sit as well with the police. You could end up being arrested because you're not in a suitable condition to be in charge of the items, for for other offences. This is common sense of course, and I do not mean to offend anyone with anything I have said.


With regards to the sentencing, I feel that that was a kind of scare tactic, and was aimed more at the people who carry knives for criminal reasons. However, if you do end up in court for it, expect to be punished to that extent, as it may be that if it's in the news about a stabbing or kids with knives, you'll be treated as a scapegoat by a court that wants to justify it's actions against knife-carriers. Giving the excuse that you paid £100s for your tools isn't enough, and you'll just be £100s out of pocket when the courts order the destruction of the items.

I hope this has helped, and if there are any inaccuracies/questions, let me know and I'll do my best to answer/edit.


Cheers,
Luke
 

Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,260
464
none
Also remember, you may be allowed on your way, but you have to leave your knives behind. This may not be a huge issue for you if it's an easily-replaceable £10 mora, but I have knives that mean a lot to me, both in monetary and sentimental value, and I certainly wouldn't want them confiscated for any reason.

A very interesting post luke thankyou but i am rather curious about thie above satment - under what cercumstances can an article be confiscated - surley if the item is legal (in the case of a none locking sub 3" edc) or the individual has demonstrated reasonable escuse (anything else) what legal reason/justification would there be for the confiscation?

I assume a recept would be issued so said item could be collected for the local station at a later date?
 
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Peanut

Tenderfoot
Jul 21, 2011
73
0
Essex
Corso- I am not aware of the/any legislation that would force a person to forfeit their property (other than a destruction order by the courts), although I encourage anyone to correct this if I am incorrect.

The power that I was referrig to isn't really a power at all. I have known people, when stopped, to say "OK then, if I'm not allowed to have it, you can take it away", and in many cases where people have been offered the opportunity to forfeit the items to the police and have no further action taken against them. In these circumstances, force policy is different re:procedure/the inevitable paperwork, however a signed disclaimer by the owner stating that they surrender all rights to ownership is completed and signed, and then the police arrange for the destruction of the item (much like the amnesties that are held very so often). Whether I would choose to forfeit an expensive tool should I be in that situation, I can't comment as I haven't had to, but it is just another way for police to deal with people. That said, this may not be the case in all areas/forces of indeed with all officers, so these comments are my own experiences, and not the word of the law so to speak.

I hope this clears it up :)


Regarding gang activity and the link with knives, I personally think that what the law says has little effect on the majority of people involved in this. Some may be put off carrying knives due to the law being changed, but I would imagine the majority will carry whatever they want regardless. If someone can stop gangs carrying knives/guns/weapons indefinitely, I will personally buy them a pint of their favourite beverage! (yes, I am a cheapskate!)
 

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