Carrying knives on public transport

[Peanut]

Basically the definition in law is that an offensive weapon is anything made/adapted/intended to cause injury to or incapacitate a person, and "a person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, THE PROOF OF WHICH SHALL LIE WITH THEM, has with them in a public place, an offensive weapon"

Basically the law means the police have to prove you had it on you (i.e. Their statamets say "I searched the person and found a knife"), and it's down to you to prove the reasonable excuse/lawful authority. I would say your scenario would be fine - you're on your way to a course, which is specified on the letter. The letter explains the nature of the course and I would imagine that the other items you have on you and/or the way you are dressed would also back it up. That and of course the letter would probably have a contact number for the company. All police officers have means of making phonecalls and so the situation can be dealt with within minutes.

So long as you are in a place to which the public have access (whether you have to pay to be there or not - i.e. a cinema for example), or are in a place that you do not have permission to be, you can be arrested for it. It entirely depends on where you are, why, what you are doing and what you have on you. And of course, it goes without saying, if asked if you have anything on you, tell them where it is on your person. DON'T pull out a parang Croc Dundee style and say "yes mate, I'd got this"! again, and with most things in life, common sense is paramount, but it does depend on how you react to the police stopping you and how the conversation goes.

I know people who will arrest people straight away and then get an explanation, de-arresting where necessary. To be honest, if someone is fine with me and the items are nowhere near them while I'm questioning them, I'll get to the bottom of it and deal with it as necessary. Safety first and all that jazz...

 

[Ian S]

It is also worthwhile remembering that there are three separate legal jurisdictions within the UK - England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

This thread started with a Scottish poster querying an announcement from the (Scottish) Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service.

Scottish legislation, and the Scottish Legal system is different (sometimes markedly different) to English legislation and the English legal system.

It would be very wise for people to ensure that they understand the legislation in the country they stay in and if different, the country they visit.

Cheers

 

[Karl82]

i would on being stoped by the police emidiatly tell them of any and all sharps i have with me where they are and why im carrying them.

i personaly would never surrender any of my knives/axes/machet's as i only ever carry them if i have a valid reasion traveling to or back from the wilderness and i would fight my case in the courts as if we dont do this when we have a valid reasion soon their will be no valid reasion in the eyes of commen law.

while camping up in Scotland in national trust land i had 3 police officers come into my camp and i had my knife layed on the log beside me while cooking dinner and they dident even mention it.

Lets remeber that most stabbing's and knife offences are commited with KITCHEN KNIVES.

 

[robin wood]

I frequently carry knives (and scissors with 7" fixed blades) on the train to London, into the House of Commons, The Lords and Portcullis House. I shall continue to do so and will be very surprised if I ever get any hassle.

Dwardo's "no pink hats" post 11 sums it up nicely I reckon.

 

[Peanut]

Karl82 - I agree entirely. If I knew I was carrying them for a legitimate reason, I would go through the courts and fight it to keep hold of them. I wouldn't just surrender them there and then. Then again, if I've only got a cheap SAK or mora on me that I won't need (if I'm coming back from a course for example), I'd probably just give them up to save the hassle. It depends entirely on the situation, and what they want you to give up.

I also agree completely with your final comment. Much like most firearm related assaults/murders. People don't spend their hard earned cash on the best tool for the job. They pick up what's easy accessible or the cheapest thing that'll do the job and use that! I've not heard of a murder or assault taking place where a £200 Bushcraft knife was used (although there's a hangs such a thing has happened), yet I've heard of countless kitchen knives/garden tools etc being used. Same for guns...aside from some incidents, most gang incidents involve cheap and nasty "Saturday night specials" or pass-around rental guns that were easy to get into the country but cost very little compared to better quality items.

 

[Barn Owl]

Folks,

I'm a retired cop and legislation and case law is something I can do without nowadays.

I raised the query for you young ones to look into as the possibility of mandatory sentences for being in possession of a working tool seems mighty high on some politicians cards.

I find it incredulous that we can't travel by green means without the fear of being jailed.

Discretion by the Police has been taken away because of targets basically, hence why you'll get a ticket or fpn for the most minor indiscretions.

The 'bench' are also losing their ability to sentence according to the facts and common sense.

That is frightening, one of us could end up in jail for a first offence of having a tool for our hobby at the bottom of a sac.

The penalties are already there for the justiciary to pass without having mandatory sentences punishing the rights of the majority.

 

[Siberianfury]

has anyone here ever been stopped and searched? i frequently walk through town with a gunslip on my back, police dont seem to mind. ive seen many people in my local town carrying working knives on their belts in full display in the highstreet without any problems. i think its down to the area.

 

[santaman2000]

has anyone here ever been stopped and searched? i frequently walk through town with a gunslip on my back, police dont seem to mind. ive seen many people in my local town carrying working knives on their belts in full display in the highstreet without any problems. i think its down to the area.

As an American I'm an outsider looking in, but it seems the thrust of this thread isn't necessarily just about how thing are now; Rather it's equally about how trends in legislation, court verdicts/sentencing, and even public opinion are influencing the trends toward the way things will be later on.

 

[Barn Owl]

That's what I meant Santa.

It's a political thrust to exploit the fears of the public.

I fear for what may be legislated to incur votes when the sentencing powers already exist.

Happy thousandth post too.

 

[santaman2000]

...Happy thousandth post too.

WOW! Thanks. I hadn't been counting.

 

[mrcharly]

has anyone here ever been stopped and searched? i frequently walk through town with a gunslip on my back, police dont seem to mind. ive seen many people in my local town carrying working knives on their belts in full display in the highstreet without any problems. i think its down to the area.

I have.

I commute by train (sometimes) between Leeds and York. When there is a big sporting event on, the police tend to do stop and searches - not random ones, they have to pick a cross-section of the populace. I was the designated 'middle-aged white male' for one officer.

I habitually have a locking sak multitool in my bag, buried under tat in the bottom. 'Reasonable excuse'; I normally commute by bike and the odds and ends travel with me, also I live (part time now, used to be full-time) on a boat on a flooding river. The multi-tool knife is a marine one with widgets for undoing knots etc.
If I were challenged on this and asked to surrender the knife, I would do so. I could replace it, and tbh, have less need of it now I don't live on a boat full-time.

 

[robin wood]

I find it incredulous that we can't travel by green means without the fear of being jailed.

That is frightening, one of us could end up in jail for a first offence of having a tool for our hobby at the bottom of a sac.

I find it incredulous too. Can you point us to the law that would result in someone being jailed for a well meaning person with good reason having a knife on their person? I don't know of one.

There is good reason for knife law, a significant number of young people die each year from knife related crime and if my children suffered from it I would want something done. We all know that most of this crime is done by young males, with kitchen knives in inner cities not by middle aged folk with bushcraft knives on trains and so do the police and CPS. If anyone knows of any case where a well meaning member of public has been jailed for carrying (with good reason) a knife I would be interested to hear, otherwise it is all just scaremongering.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

... We all know that most of this crime is done by young males, with kitchen knives in inner cities...

It's not helpful to this debate to make assumptions about any demographic. Young or old, the issue is not what weapon is used, but that we live in a society in which weapons are used to commit crimes at all.
My neighbour was murdered by his lover's son (who was in his late twenties). He used a range of household tools including an axe and some barbecue tongs. This does not make axes or barbecue tongs bad things, rather it tells us that the society we live in is sick and twisted, and that human nature can never be curbed.

In my opinion a car is a much more deadly weapon than any knife, axe or outdoor cooking utensil. Five people died in a car crash in my town recently, because the driver was inexperienced, poorly trained and under the influence of cannabis. But no one calls for the banning of cars, or mandatory 20mph zones in towns and cities, or even suggests that everyone should undertake speed awareness courses. I haven't looked at the figures on driving related deaths, but I'd be willing to bet they're much higher than the statistics for knife crime.

Ultimately it isn't about the facts, it's about fear. And we live in a nation stricken with paranoia.

 

[Barn Owl]

I'm trying to say that there are much rumblings about mandatory jail sentences to come by politicians up here anyway.

Politics on their part as it's the opposition crying for same.

I've spoken with my SNP member of the Scottish parliament about this and the simple answer is that there are no prison spaces to accommodate such mandatory sentences.

As I said, It was a snippet I heard on the news and wondered if anyone had further knowledge,that was all.

 

[nigeltm]

If anyone knows of any case where a well meaning member of public has been jailed for carrying (with good reason) a knife I would be interested to hear, otherwise it is all just scaremongering.

The problem is one person's definition of a "reasonable excuse" may not be the same as that held by the arresting officer, CPS and judge. As has been stated, all the Police Officer has to show is that you have in your possession a knife which requires a reasonable excuse. It's then up to you to justify the situation (guilty until proven innocent!).

There are regular discussions on Police forums, such as UKPoliceOnline, about the carrying of knives and other "weapons". Unfortunately the issue has become so politicised and many officers are cynical and/or afraid of their supervision or the media that they don't take any chances. It's better for them to arrest on suspicion and sort it out back at the station rather than take the risk of making a mistake and having the “weapon” used after they have accepted the reasonable excuse and let the guy go.

There again there are Officers who truly buy into the “all knives are killers” idea. They see it as their job to remove all knives from the streets, regardless of who’s carrying it. Some have even stated that they would stretch the limit of their powers to do this.

 

[Siberianfury]

what surprises me is that i can legaly carry my chainsaw in any public place with the cover on, should it fall into the wrong hands it would take 5 seconds to start it and then theres a whole lot of potential carnage to follow.

i can also carry my 12ftlbs pnematic air rifle in a public place, and again if that where to fall into the wrong hands there could be an even bigger problem.

oh, but i cant legaly carry a small wood carving knife or even my leatherman charge because its far to dangerous.

 

[mrcharly]

Siberian, I think you miss understand the laws. Your wood-carving knife is no more 'illegal' than your chainsaw.

There is an article on the site that explains things clearly.

 

[robin wood]

The problem is one person's definition of a "reasonable excuse" may not be the same as that held by the arresting officer, CPS and judge.

OK so can you give me any example of a person who has been sent to prison for possession of a knife where there may be some question about whether they had good reason or not? I simply don't believe it happens and I think folk are getting unduly worried but if you can show me just one case I am open to being convinced otherwise.

what surprises me is that i can legaly carry my chainsaw in any public place with the cover on, should it fall into the wrong hands it would take 5 seconds to start it and then theres a whole lot of potential carnage to follow.

As MrCharly says if you are on your way to work in the woods with chainsaw or knife there is no problem, if it's 2am outside the nightclub with either you have a lot of explaining to do.

 

[Corso]

Double post

 

[Corso]

Corso- I am not aware of the/any legislation that would force a person to forfeit their property (other than a destruction order by the courts), although I encourage anyone to correct this if I am incorrect.

The power that I was referrig to isn't really a power at all. I have known people, when stopped, to say "OK then, if I'm not allowed to have it, you can take it away", and in many cases where people have been offered the opportunity to forfeit the items to the police and have no further action taken against them. In these circumstances, force policy is different rerocedure/the inevitable paperwork, however a signed disclaimer by the owner stating that they surrender all rights to ownership is completed and signed, and then the police arrange for the destruction of the item (much like the amnesties that are held very so often). Whether I would choose to forfeit an expensive tool should I be in that situation, I can't comment as I haven't had to, but it is just another way for police to deal with people. That said, this may not be the case in all areas/forces of indeed with all officers, so these comments are my own experiences, and not the word of the law so to speak.

I hope this clears it up

It does thanks