Can of worms..

[Wallenstein]

A lot of traditional "bushcraft" was done out of necessity not out of some noble desire to commune with nature.

Why did our ancestors eat local plants / herbs etc? Half the time it was 'cos the local squire had nicked all the decent farmland and wouldn't let them grow spuds.

Or your tribe was stuck halfway up a mountain and all the sheep got eaten by wolves.

There's a great bit in one of Ray Mears' africa shows where he's out in the bush with a Masai (?) tribesman. Ray is humping loads of gear - backpack, sleeping bag, extra blankets etc - and he's dead envious of the good ol' local chappie who rocks up in a loin-cloth and bare feet, and only carries a bit of water and pouch of stewed goat for dinner.

Except that half-way through a chilly night in the open this lad - who does "real" bushcraft - is freezing his b*llocks off and can't wait to get his hands on one of Ray's machine-woven blankets.

If you offered the sort of kit we use today to our distant ancestors they'd have bitten yer hand off to get it - why on earth sit there trying to get a spark from flint/steel when you can use a match?

Why put up with "savoury rice" (yuk!) when you can have a nice foil pouch of cumberland sausage casserole?

Seriously, ultra-minimal bushcraft has only ever been done through necessity, not because it's "purer" or "more authentic". I also find it interesting that the OP's "minimal" approach meant he had to bottle it at the last Midlands Meet - in the wild that lack of preparation could have had much more serious consequences.

 

[HillBill]

I found myself wondering where the line was drawn between bushcraft and wild camping. .

IMO mate there is no line between them, They co-exist together just as they do with any outdoor activity. They are not seperate entitys. Just parts of the same whole.

 

[Grooveski]

My bush is bushier than your bush.

Jeez! Hasn't this one been done to death over the years?

 

[John Fenna]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH.
Not more sporks.

Not all of us have access to crested solid silver flatwear...

 

[John Fenna]

But - oh, to be young again and know everything (as I did), to be super fit again (as I was), and confident that I could do everything perfectly (as I could)!
"As you are - I once was: As I am - so you shall be..."
Now the body hurts - even before I get out of breath - I find that I am learning new tricks (every day) to help keep me comfortable and I am confident only in the possibility of failure - so I plan for it....
Bushcraft? - the art of being crafty in the bush, the craft of being arty in the bush, being arts and crafty in the bush, being bushed from getting artily crafted .....

 

[Tadpole]

But - oh, to be young again and know everything (as I did), to be super fit again (as I was), and confident that I could do everything perfectly (as I could)!
"As you are - I once was: As I am - so you shall be..."
Now the body hurts - even before I get out of breath - I find that I am learning new tricks (every day) to help keep me comfortable and I am confident only in the possibility of failure - so I plan for it....
Bushcraft? - the art of being crafty in the bush, the craft of being arty in the bush, being arts and crafty in the bush, being bushed from getting artily crafted .....

The day I wake up with no pain is the day I know I have died.
"I hurt therefore I am"

 

[w00dsmoke]

Blimey that's all a bit thoughtful

Then think about it...

 

[sapper1]

I find it interesting that Novemberrain had to cut his weekend short and go home because his kit wasn't up to the job.Yet he decries the people who weren't proper bushcrafters who were able to stay because their kit WAS up to the job.It seems that he doesn't learn from his own experiences.Perhaps he should take a look at what others are using and try to emulate their kit lists,then he could stay and enjoy a hogroast.

 

[gzornenplat]

Personally, I take all the luxuries I can carry. Maybe I should say 'prepared to carry'. This
varies depending on circumstance. If I'm 100 yards from the car park, then I'm prepared to
carry more than for a 1000km, 6-week jaunt.

'Prepared to carry' also explains why I will take a Pepsi stove and a titanium pot rather
than an 8' iron spit and a pig

 

[crazyclimber]

Hmm I can see the point novemberain was making but I don't agree with it. I get outdoors with the aim of getting away with the stresses of 'real life', so IMHO everyone should be able to enjoy the outdoors with as much or as little kit as they like, without criticism. Suggestions yes, criticism no.

Yes, personally I'm a lazy sod who doesn't like carrying a house on my back and therefore to me 'light is right', but I can also see it does limit me. A bivi bag but no tarp is limiting in the wet, a knife but no saw / axe means limited cutting ability. Despite going light though I do buy and test a lot of kit - I enjoy it as and of itself, finding what works best for me is part of the enjoyment I get from bushcraft / wild camping or whatever else you want to call it.

The only thing I worry about regarding kit is that some people may feel 'excluded' from bushcrafting because they don't have or can't afford THE kit. I too have a slight cynisism with some of it; gransfors axes for example, already mentioned in this thread, but what is it with them? My granddad has an axe he bought at Hay and Brecon Farmers (a local farm supply chain) 23 years ago (a week after I was born he reminds me) which does the trick perfectly on an almost daily basis. He has a 'hacker' too which does an even better job with the smaller stuff yet I've yet to see one mentioned on here... presumably because RM has yet to write about it in one of his books. Remind me to get into the hacker production business before he does! I'm with British Red on this in that I've often thought about going to moots but eventually decided against it. I think I'd enjoy the instruction and demonstration side of it, but though I appreciate the kit on offer there's something about the thought of 'commercialised' bushcraft that just goes against the grain.

 

[Shewie]

I don`t think meets are necessarily about bushcraft, it`s more an excuse to get together with like minded folks, have a few beers and have a good chat. The skills and tutorials people demonstrate are good but I always seem to miss them anyway.

I prefer to get out and have a good hike in to somewhere as remote as possible and chill out with a mate or two. The meets are good for putting names to faces but they`re not really my bag.

As for kit NR, my list is much the same as yours with the addition of an underblanket. A winter bag and underblanket take up half my Sabre 75 and the rest of the space is filled with the rest of my gear.

 

[Tadpole]

! I'm with British Red on this in that I've often thought about going to moots but eventually decided against it. I think I'd enjoy the instruction and demonstration side of it, but though I appreciate the kit on offer there's something about the thought of 'commercialised' bushcraft that just goes against the grain.

I think that people mistake the moot for some kind of NEC style camping show, with hoards of vendors trolling up and down flashing their goods, and ranks of twitchers laden down with bling, sharps and shinies. Ok there have been a couple of people wandering about with lots of gear, but it’s been my experience 99% of them are ok blokes who are either showing their kit to others (as in knife makers or tool makers) or they need it for demo’s.
I’ve been to two moots and have not met anyone “all the gear no-idea” or even “my axe is bigger/better than yours” Though I did see someone walk away from a demo put on by Dave Budd after a comment that a large knife was a merely a penile extension. Moots are what you make them, you can tramp off into the woods and play by yourself, not meet anyone unless they stumble across your camp when hunting for dry firewood (sorry by the way) or be the life and soul of the party, and hang with t’ pirates.
It’s a moot of many meetings

 

[novembeRain]

eh up, as I've triet to stress. I'm not judging anyone really or trying to impose my way or opinions. To be honest, if anything I started this thread to try to understand better.

I can relate to wanting to be comfortable, and those that need certain things for certain reasons.I don't claim to be good at everything - far from it. I'm sure you're nearly all better skilled than I am. Surely though, there's a line between camping in the woods and calling yourself a bushcrafter and going to the woods specificly to practice bushcraft skills (which I thought was half the idea behind going to meets)?

How do I explain this better......?

I go camping each summer in a tent for my holiday, I have done almost every year since before I could walk. I take a fair bit of kit but I don't go mad. I see people at these sites with tellys, portable toilets, gazeebo's barbeques and all sorts. To me that's fine, they can take all this kit in their car and it's a holiday - just a shame some don't quieten down much until very late. To me, that's camping - they (myself included) don't use many skills that you wouldn't use at home.

I go out in the woods for more of a purpose, I'm there to learn things as well as to enjoy my surroundings. I do all manner of things, I practice knots (or learn new ones), I try to improve my knowledge of plants, I look for animal tracks and sneek about in the hope of seeing some of the rarer creatures, I experiment with different fires and different ways to get them going and different ways to cook with them. I don't insist on taking minimal kit, but at the same time if I took loads I'd have to be much fitter and I wouldn't need to do some of the things I do and I'd learn less.

I'm sorry if anyone feels I'm judging them, and I certainly don't want to alter anyones ways (nor do I expect to anyway).

Spam, you seem to have taken this to heart more than most and, as said, I'm sorry if I caused any offence. Why did I go home? Think it would be easier to tell the whole story.

Frankly, in the first place I really couldn't afford to go but did anyway because it was time to meet a few of you and try my hammock out. By the time I'd got set up, it was dark so I had some warm food and called it a night deciding it would be better to speak to people in the light especially as I'd took no booze to share as I was so skint. I made a schoolboy error in that my roll mat was touching my tarp (I hadn't noticed) and I got absolutely soaked. YES, I could've dried my stuff by the fire (and would have if I had no choice) but all things considered; (not knowing anyone, not really being able to afford to be there, the way the weather was and the fact nothing was really going on) I decided I'd call it a day and make more of an effort next time round. To be honest, I was embaressed and annoyed at myself for making such a stupid mistake.

 

[sapper1]

All those people and all that experience sat around and you thought the best thing to do would be to go home! I am amazed.
I didn't attend the meet but I'll put my life on it that ,had you asked ,you would have been lent a full set of dry equipment to enable you to stay.If you had turned up at someone elses pitch (soaking wet) and explained what had happened everyone would have helped out .It's why we go to these meets To share skills ,knowledge ,beer,food and friendship.Not many of us bite and those that do only tend to do it in fun.
For Gods sake if you have a problem at a moot ASK for help.You'll get it no problem.

 

[Tadpole]

I can almost Guarantee that if you’d have asked one of those people you are mocking about carrying to much kit in this thread, they would have lent you some of their “in case of emergency kit” and you’d have had a great time. After all it's what carrying all that extra kit is about.
You don’t have to have lots of booze to join in around the fire, you can join in and talk, and when the port comes to you just pass it on (to the left)

 

[crazyclimber]

I didn't mean to criticise you either NR, and re. your night out, well I bet you won't make the roll mat mistake again best way to learn! Anyone who actually tries these things rather than sit talking / thinking about them has some respect from me. Btw if I remember rightly I don't think that night happened at a meet?
Tadpole and Shewie cheers for those insights. Yep, tbh an outdoor NEC was exactly the kind of image I had... social bushcrafting on the other hand (beer? where...) I can do!!
Really what's put me right off loud people in the outdoors is an incident with a couple blokes a few weeks back. I overtook them on the way up a mountain when they were moaning about how steep it was (OK, mountain level out for this pair I command you... ), then when they eventally got to the top proceeded to park themselves next to me and complain loudly at the thought of having to walk back down again. I don't know if they even noticed the stunning view. Huuuuuge rucksacks, very new looking kit... I'm not saying they were Trail readers I just wouldn't mind betting on it!
Ah I shouldn't complain. Let them enjoy the outdoors in whatever way they like and all that, but some people do test you...!

 

[rik_uk3]

Novemberain, the moment you leave home with the intention of sleeping out doors you have gone camping, its as simple as that.

You can add tags if you feel the need, bushcraft camping, woodcraft camping, wild camping, mountain camping, canoe camping, kayak camping, family camping, call it what you will but you still on a camping trip

When I went camping with the scouts we used tents, tarps, shelters, but it was just called a weekend camping trip. When we went hill walking with the School club we would call it a weekend camp in Wales

I don't understand this need to wear a badge declaring 'I'm a bushcrafter'

With that, I'll say 'hi de hi' I'm off down the pub for a pint and burger and chips £4.95 special at wetherspoons

 

[John Fenna]

What! - lend my nice dry clean gear to a stranger?
They might get it muddy!
No way!
My gear is for me, to show how great I am at gathering vast amounts of expensive stuff
Why should I share with folk who have proven to be incapable of looking after themselves?
No - I will sit and watch them suffer and





oh - sorry - wrong forum......

 

[Armleywhite]

With that, I'll say 'hi de hi' I'm off down the pub for a pint and burger and chips £4.95 special at wetherspoons

Cooked over an open fire I hope???

 

[rik_uk3]

Cooked over an open fire I hope???

Judging by the taste, microwave