camouflage why it works (or not) what insights do any one have on this?

[rancid badger]

Just another thought
If animal's can only see in monochrome (assumably this is black and white monochrome?) then why bother using any color at all in a hunting type camo? Why not just stick with black white and grey? Easier cheaper simpler.
Do ALL animals see only in monochrome, and how did the sceintist's discover that in the first place (I cant imagine taking a bear or something down to specasver's to get there eye's seen to)

What they do is; take the various animals eyes out altogether, open them up and check out the arrangement of cells in the retina known as rods and cones I think there are other factors as well but I dont really know much more about that.
As far as your idea on not using colour in camo, your actually right, if your after most game animals such as deer, elk etc. quite a few North American hunter types use flourescent orange based camouflage, still in a disruptive pattern but extremely brightly coloured so that they can see each other but the animals they are hunting cant.
It's the disruption to the shape of the hunter caused by the camo pattern not the actual colours.( this only works with animals)
regards R.B.

 

[sharp88]

I always thought that. You seldom do see hunters in the U.S. wearing orange caps and/or waistecoats. I dont think I could ever bring myself to donning such garments though. I just love the colours of camo so much.

 

[Risclean]

Mammals generally have poorer colour vision than humans (or none at all), but birds on the other hand have very good colour vision, better than humans in many cases. I read somewhere that some species of bird have 4 types of colour sensitive cone cells in their retinas, compared to 3 in humans. This means they can distinguish colours that would appear the same even to humans with perfect vision. Grayscale (or hardwoods orange) patterns would work fine for deer, but birds might see you and start making alarm calls. Think how hard it is to approach birds even when they're on the ground, while it relatively easy to approach deer even tho they have better hearing and sense of smell.

mr dazzler, I think with Zebras it's easy to identify them on the savannah (they're not trying to hide), but of course hard to distinguish individuals in a running herd. The Thomson's gazelle colouring makes them hard to indentify in the first place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Thompson's_Gazelle.jpg I think zebras are found in large herds while Thomsons gazelles are found in small groups. Your patterns don't show any countershading, but they are very hard to focus on. This is apparently whay designers are trying to acheive with the new digital camo patterns, ie not just disruption and blending, but also very hard to focus on when you look straight at the pattern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countershading

I did find some sites with info on this, but I've lost the links. It's out there for googling tho.

I found a website selling that Krylon paint, but it said it's no longer in production and they're selling off remaining stock

 

[Ogri the trog]

There is some great information coming out of this thread.
Some camouflage patterns, both commercial and conceptual are fantastic, but I'm a great believer in the KISS principle - the simpler the better.
Humans are almost uniquely able, in the world of hunter/prey interaction, to change their camouflage at will - though I will admit to cameleons and arctic hares being able to change theirs according to surroundings or time of year.
The one advantage(!) of the animal kingdom is that they are born and raised to make the very best of what they have, and so they learn to become invisible or pay the price very slowly as the gene-pool breeds out the behaviour of those that get eaten!
In the theatre of conflict, man is unlikely to suffer the dread of being eaten alive, though the idea of being shot etc is no great comfort, so armies do what they can to minimise the losses in an expected fied of warfare. We as bushcrafters can hardly claim to be professionals in camouflage, I mean, what would we really suffer if the animal we were watching was to notice us and bound off into the sunset - no great hardship, we'd just move onto another target and maybe try to sit a little quieter, but in the end we'd still be able to sit around in relative comfort with a full belly.
From personal observation, keeping still has huge advantages over types of print on clothing, as was said before - no amount of camouflage can account for bad fieldcraft!

Just some random thoughts.....

Ogri the trog

 

[Tourist]

I always thought that. You seldom do see hunters in the U.S. wearing orange caps and/or waistecoats. I dont think I could ever bring myself to donning such garments though. I just love the colours of camo so much.

Like this thing, a Browning canvas hunters jacket:

If you want to see lots of hunters camo have a look around this site, I can personally atest to the shops themselves being humungous........like B&Q for the outdoors enthusiast and hunter.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Shop_10151_-1_10001?CMID=MH_HOME

 

[Tourist]

Jonathan, here you go. I have time to surf today 'cos bad weather has cancelled my plans.

This is a NASA techbrief, one of the authors is Philip Moynihan who is/was a leading researcher in adaptive camo. If you register on the site you can also download a white paper on the subject.

http://www.techbriefs.com/content/view/1771/34/

Having googled adaptive camoflage and then googled a few of the names associated with its R&D quite a few interesting links come up. The problem you have though is that as a civvy you only ever get the un-classified stuff - which is still interesting.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/29/1048653907088.html?oneclick=true

 

[mr dazzler]

Rene Magrite appaer's to have seen the concept of active camo back in the 1930's

http://www.clevelandart.org/oci/midsize/1992/1992.274.jpg
http://www.designboom.com/history/friedrich/fried2/05.jpg
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/magritte/magritte8.jpg

I cant see AC being practical though, how will the special suits stand up under combat conditions, if the technology failed the suits could do more harm than good. And when the person moves its still a give away. Still maybe the scientist's will solve all that though.
I like the idea (just daydreaming here ) of a fabric that is impregnared with a light sensitive chemical that you could set into any pattern or color tonal scheme depending where you are. Like the soldier stands in a booth like a phone box/photocopier machine and they print the pattern on his uniform in a few seconds, next please. Then you could "erase" it and replace with a new pattern (still on the same suit) in a different location and taking into account the new location's particular geographic/climate/topographical changes etc?? Just a thought mobile scotchprint graphic print technology. I dont know how it could be done. I think some of the first original photograph's were done on cotton canvas with silver salts and suff to create an image. You would need a chemical or something that can take an image, but unlike photo salts, could be reused again and again, with some way to "fix" the printed pattern each time, and a way to erase it as well?? Probalby in the realms of fantasy captain mannering

 

[Risclean]

Of course the camouflage doesn't work without good fieldcraft. You have to keep off ridges and hilltops, contour round hills, follow depressions, cross open ground by following linear features (hedges, ditches, fences, even tracks) where possible, use available scrub and woodland etc. Walking along the boundary between grassy ground and heathery ground makes you much harder to see than walking in either by itself.

It seems to me that camouflage is more useful in open featureless environments where there is little available cover than it is in hillier more wooded areas. Very open areas like my part of the world http://www.caithness.org/photos/nature/biodiversitycollection/seteight/7.jpg

The CADPAT net ponchos http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/productsdig.html are interesting. If you were watching wildlife in a particular environment you could wear a general camo (eg Multicam) or just olive green and then put on the poncho when you reach the appropriate environment.

Here's some orange camo http://www.mossyoak.com/content/tmpltThumbsArticle.aspx?articleid=857&zoneid=1

 

[mr dazzler]

That orange one and also this winter one are basically commandocal's black felt tip idea, for hunting animal's it seems thats about all you would need??

I love this bold contrast on the siut
http://www.mossyoak.com/absolutenm/articlefiles/50-win_2.jpg
where it looks like atree and a side branch and it stands out more than the human body form, disruptive pattern??

cheers Jonathan

PS the talk of orange safety kit for hunting reminded me of nippy and nigel on telly whee nippy wore a bright orange turban to hunt sanglier in france

 

[Risclean]

The winter camo is very disruptive, but the high contrast would be very noticable if you were moving about, especially in open areas. A lot of hunting camouflage seems to be designed in a way that makes it unsuitable for moving through open areas. It camouflages as things (positive space) unlike military camouflage which is designed for the background (negative space). For me it's more useful to be the space between things, but it depends on your needs.

Colour matching isn't need for colour blind mammals, but think how much noise a blackbird makes if it spots you,same with a wheatear or even a wren.

 

[Greg]

this is an old photo and a bit small but its shows various cammos and my attempts at cammo on a rifle

Cammo is 2 things Colour and pattern

Duncan

I have to say you are slightly off the mark here, if you don't break up the shape of an object it will still standout no matter the colour and pattern as you can see by your photo, although nicely painted your rifle still looks like a rifle! thats why snipers wear guilli suits and break up the shape of their weapons using scrim netting etc.
The same goes for larger objects, even when using a cam net on a landrover if there is any shadow from the vehicle visible it will stand out like a saw thumb.
You could be cammed up in a wood but if anything shiny such as a watch or glasses are neglected the sun can glint off them giving your location away.
Basically what I am trying to say is that cammo is more than just colour and pattern as stated in previous posts on this thread.

 

[Tourist]

I have to say you are slightly off the mark here, if you don't break up the shape of an object it will still standout no matter the colour and pattern as you can see by your photo, although nicely painted your rifle still looks like a rifle! thats why snipers wear guilli suits and break up the shape of their weapons using scrim netting etc.
The same goes for larger objects, even when using a cam net on a landrover if there is any shadow from the vehicle visible it will stand out like a saw thumb.
You could be cammed up in a wood but if anything shiny such as a watch or glasses are neglected the sun can glint off them giving your location away.
Basically what I am trying to say is that cammo is more than just colour and pattern as stated in previous posts on this thread.

Greg, I think what he was on about here was camo patterns not the total fieldcraft concept of camo..........that is according to the fieldcraft manual: 5*S & 1*M (as I vaguely recall).

 

[Full Moon Man]

Now without wanting to get too much into this debate, I believe there is a necessity to distinguish between "Hunter" camoflauge and "military" camoflauge. The prey observes differently and in fact sees differently. Many prey species see only in monochrome so tone disruption is more important than colour. Similarly scent, sound and movement become far more critical (some hunting suits now contain scent blockers - technology making up for a lack of fieldcraft). There really is a world of difference between what is needed for animals. Bear in mind that animal should not be actively searching so a "high seat" may be all thats needed (deer rarely look up) or a hide can be obvious if left in place for the prey species to get used to it (its still camoflauge since it hides you and has become, in there eyes, normal). Ghillie suits were of course originally built to disguise stalkers on open morrland - they are really not necessary in woodland for huntin animals.

Disguising against deliberate human search is a different and more "military" matter - I'll leave that to those with an interest in such things - hiding from animals is more fun since it implies developing a knowledge of the prey species habits, senses and physiology. I love the insights you get from just observing let alone hunting with camera or rifle.

Red

Bang on (pardon the pun)

 

[loz.]

The same goes for larger objects, even when using a cam net on a landrover if there is any shadow from the vehicle visible it will stand out like a saw thumb.
You could be cammed up in a wood but if anything shiny such as a watch or glasses are neglected the sun can glint off them giving your location away.

Right on - Thats why you would normaly configure some Hessian drop downs for covering front and rear light clusters, windows etc, and the use of campoles, help you breakup the shape.

I did an event at an airshow once, when still with the wing ( TCW ) and we didn't get a single vistor to our display !!. It was only when packing up, we were approached by the SWO or the CO can't remember which and he had thought we hadn't turned up !!! - effective cam works,

Theres a lot of talk on this thread about patterns and colours, non of it will work without the basics of the S's

 

[mr dazzler]

Colour matching isn't need for colour blind mammals, but think how much noise a blackbird makes if it spots you,same with a wheatear or even a wren.

Do bird's see colors then? Is it the case you could be stalking ever so stealthily, in the right wind direction, no B O, ciggie smoke or afershave, nicely broken up body outline etc etc, then a little bird could spot you and give you away cos they DID notice your orange camo suit ?? Pardon me m ornithological knowledge is zilch

 

[Buckshot]

When I did the DSC1 course the tutors said, contary to popular belief, deer do have limited colour vision - but it fails after about 100m or so reverting to black and white
So longer range it doesn't matter what colour you wear but shorter range it does.

 

[Risclean]

Do bird's see colors then? Is it the case you could be stalking ever so stealthily, in the right wind direction, no B O, ciggie smoke or afershave, nicely broken up body outline etc etc, then a little bird could spot you and give you away cos they DID notice your orange camo suit ?? Pardon me m ornithological knowledge is zilch

Yes, I fear they could. Birds vision is as good as humans, and better in some cases. Birds are small and hard to spot, as well as being very alert. They also frequently sit in trees giving them a good vantage point

Buckshot - If I remember deer colour vision is less in some part of the red/green/blue spectrum, but I can't remember which. This must have some bearing on the colurs that deer can see most easily. 100m is a fair distance in woodland and scrub, though clearly not much on the hill.

Gillie suits and those suits with the little flaps cut on them look good, but they must be less practical for moving about or carrying

 

[Ahjno]

Not my subject, just like to show this piccie

 

[sharp88]

Speaking of snipers & ghillie suits... I just dyed a load of burlap with dylon hand dye in olive, for a homemade medium weight ghillie suit and it didnt work too well on the burlap because its brown. Is there any way of bleaching burlap? Or perhaps a more concentrate dye on the market? Or a lighter coloured material to use?

 

[mr dazzler]

I remember years ago bleaching old denim's to make "cool" cut down short's. It worked (the cloth would go white) BUT it tended to attack the stitches. So you could possibly bleach out areas that werent sewn up. Did you wash the burlap first? How long did you let the color take up? I wonder if that would have a detrimental effect on the dyeing procedure? Maybe try a square of burlap in a weak bleach overnight see what happens if you dye it? Toddy would knoew what to do I am sure
Maybe try to source a man made fabric? Sacking gets heavy in rain. I'm thinking of the stuff they use as linings in some rain coats, white mesh with tiny holes about 1-2 mm, might be able to get it already olive color.