camouflage why it works (or not) what insights do any one have on this?
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Camoflage is the ability to blend into your surroundings, look at someone in any camo pattern from about 50-100' away..can you appreciate the pattern? It all fades or melts into a blob that can stand out darkly against the background if it is not chosen wisely.
Also not assuming a human shape is also key, your eye looks for the human simetrical outline.. so break it up, dull it up.. take the shine away.. take the movement away..be where they don't expect you.
I have used white painter's coveralls rubbed with loon s..t and stood in a ticket/stand of birch saplings..waited as the chase group came within arms reach.. and goosed them
We get to engrossed with elaborate patterns and forget backgrounds.
Also not assuming a human shape is also key, your eye looks for the human simetrical outline.. so break it up, dull it up.. take the shine away.. take the movement away..be where they don't expect you.
I have used white painter's coveralls rubbed with loon s..t and stood in a ticket/stand of birch saplings..waited as the chase group came within arms reach.. and goosed them
We get to engrossed with elaborate patterns and forget backgrounds.
This is more the thing.
I suppose I'd apply it with a flat hogbrush using oils then. One more question to ask. If I applied thinned down, artist quality oils with linseed oil, how would it dry? Would it be soaked into the fabric or sorta crusty n flakey on the top? Id imagin it would have to be quite thin to be applied to the fabric.
I suppose I'd apply it with a flat hogbrush using oils then. One more question to ask. If I applied thinned down, artist quality oils with linseed oil, how would it dry? Would it be soaked into the fabric or sorta crusty n flakey on the top? Id imagin it would have to be quite thin to be applied to the fabric.
Anyone wanting to make their own camouflage patterns should consider Dylons Pure Colour craft dyes. These are fibre reactive dyes which can be mixed with a thickener and then painted or stencilled on to fabric http://www.dylon.co.uk/colourcentre/index.htm This would be superior to paint. I 've not tried it yet myself but I'm planning to make a parka and dye it with a winter grassland camouflage pattern - beige fabric with light green and mid brown. There's a lot of information about dying here http://www.pburch.net/dyeing.shtml
Camouflage works by disruption of the shape and symmetry of the object being camouflaged, or by blending with the background (colour and scale of pattern), or by a combination of both.
Most military temparate camouflage is too dark for moorland and defintely too dark for grassland. The pattern is also too small to work at the long distances found in these environments. Hunting camouflage pattern are usually dark as well and generally offer poor disruption although good blending. It also seems odd that hunters need 10 - 12 colour patterns to hide from animals with simple visual sytems while a 3 - 5 colour pattern can hide soldiers from humans trying to kill them. Hunting camouflage is probably as much about people as deer though. ASAT is probably all you would need for camouflaging yourself from mammals in most situations http://www.asatcamo.com/
An option for a non military camouflage pattern is Thomson's Gazelle cam. A combination of countershading with a simple bold disruptive pattern. It's easy to dye a gradient by dipping the upper part of a garnment into a dye bath. Do it twice, once with ~2/3 and then the same colour or a darker colour with ~1/3. Olive green and tan might be a good combination, and by adding a dark brown stripe across 2/3 of the torso plus a blob from the upper chest to the shoulder blade I think you would get a pattern that was very effective against animals and a lot of people aswell. It would look weird up close though.
I'm quite interested in camouflage, by the way
Camouflage works by disruption of the shape and symmetry of the object being camouflaged, or by blending with the background (colour and scale of pattern), or by a combination of both.
Most military temparate camouflage is too dark for moorland and defintely too dark for grassland. The pattern is also too small to work at the long distances found in these environments. Hunting camouflage pattern are usually dark as well and generally offer poor disruption although good blending. It also seems odd that hunters need 10 - 12 colour patterns to hide from animals with simple visual sytems while a 3 - 5 colour pattern can hide soldiers from humans trying to kill them. Hunting camouflage is probably as much about people as deer though. ASAT is probably all you would need for camouflaging yourself from mammals in most situations http://www.asatcamo.com/
An option for a non military camouflage pattern is Thomson's Gazelle cam. A combination of countershading with a simple bold disruptive pattern. It's easy to dye a gradient by dipping the upper part of a garnment into a dye bath. Do it twice, once with ~2/3 and then the same colour or a darker colour with ~1/3. Olive green and tan might be a good combination, and by adding a dark brown stripe across 2/3 of the torso plus a blob from the upper chest to the shoulder blade I think you would get a pattern that was very effective against animals and a lot of people aswell. It would look weird up close though.
I'm quite interested in camouflage, by the way
You are probably right risclean. As long as the product "does what it sys on the tin" it may well be the best option. I looked on a tie dye craft site and they recomend those sort because they physically bond to the cloth fibres at a molecular level and dont wash out. I have no doubt about the durability of oil paint BUT on thinking about it, if an entire area was covered in it (not just a few smeanrs and splashes as on my work trouser's) the fabric would probably become slightly stiffened, even if the paint/stain was cut thin. It would soak in nicely, but the reactive dye wouldnt alter the fabric structure or feel at all (so I understand it?)I think its a case of experiment and see what works.
PS I like that design sharp
nice onemy two øre (as in cents, just scandianvian coins...) One point: I think the Swiss used (use?) reds in their camo, because they planned to fight the enemy in urban areas,- and the red would therefor blend with rubble, and other parts of houses etc... An other point,- no large mamal that I can think of use green colors. Spotted a reindear in the hills the other day, but only because it was moving. When it stoped, I had to get my binocolare (?) out. It struck me (ouch) that it was grayish brown in color, and that was obviously, in this environment, a exellent "camouflage". Deer, elk, fox etc all "use" brown-ish colors and it seems to work, but maybe they just know how to stand still, when big people stomp by??
I been looking at this post with intrest, as i'm old soldier too, and into camouflage in bushcraft aswell. I think i'll go more towards a tan-brown-gray base with some green as highlights. The reason being it's less military, animals use it, and well, just because I can.
Other places to get insperation: Jerven fjellduk fjell-camu,- looks odd at first, but when U see the mountians in norway it suddenly doesn't look so silly... My point is,- camu doesn't need to look in good in the eyes of the wearer, as long as it works... A problem I struggle with everytime i try to make a pattern...
I been looking at this post with intrest, as i'm old soldier too, and into camouflage in bushcraft aswell. I think i'll go more towards a tan-brown-gray base with some green as highlights. The reason being it's less military, animals use it, and well, just because I can.
Other places to get insperation: Jerven fjellduk fjell-camu,- looks odd at first, but when U see the mountians in norway it suddenly doesn't look so silly... My point is,- camu doesn't need to look in good in the eyes of the wearer, as long as it works... A problem I struggle with everytime i try to make a pattern...
:notworthy I have been considering getting some multicam but i am sceptic on how it would actually work in UK woodland, its a bit too light, and DPM works fine i think
Most mammals are camouflaged, with countershading which is disruptive, and often with spots or stripes can be disruptive or blending. Although there are no green mammals some birds are green as are a lot of reptiles, amphibians and invertebrates.
I normally wear different camouflage pattern on each garnment, which sometimes means four patterns at once. This gives better camouflage because unless you spend the whole time in a specific area you can't hope to match every area with one pattern. If your trousers are lighter than your jacket this also gives a countershading effect. It probably looks less soldierly than wearing a single pattern aswell.
Here's some links to less common military camouflage patterns
http://www.britisharmysurplus.com/popup.cfm?p_n=399113&p_i=399113
http://www.epicmilitaria.com/product.php?xProd=637&xSec=97&jssCart=6df99f2be39d25bf573690ecd474a127
http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/ishop/877/shopscr2605.html
http://thecombatstore.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=232&cat=17&page=1
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/cacpo2nx.html
I normally wear different camouflage pattern on each garnment, which sometimes means four patterns at once. This gives better camouflage because unless you spend the whole time in a specific area you can't hope to match every area with one pattern. If your trousers are lighter than your jacket this also gives a countershading effect. It probably looks less soldierly than wearing a single pattern aswell.
Here's some links to less common military camouflage patterns
http://www.britisharmysurplus.com/popup.cfm?p_n=399113&p_i=399113
http://www.epicmilitaria.com/product.php?xProd=637&xSec=97&jssCart=6df99f2be39d25bf573690ecd474a127
http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/ishop/877/shopscr2605.html
http://thecombatstore.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=232&cat=17&page=1
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/cacpo2nx.html
Hi risclean
If the danish jacket is anythinglike as decent as my (genuine) danish trousers it will be superb. Top quality smooth and dense cloth, too warm to wear at the mo
Can you expand a bit what is counter shading, not yet sure what it means?
cheers Jonathan
If the danish jacket is anythinglike as decent as my (genuine) danish trousers it will be superb. Top quality smooth and dense cloth, too warm to wear at the mo
Can you expand a bit what is counter shading, not yet sure what it means?
cheers Jonathan
Risclean,
On your lighter trousers and darker top theme, I've seen pictures of US Navy SEALS and MAC V SOG wearing light Tiger stripe trousers and the darker ERDL/Woodland cam top which seemed to work for them. On a Wild Live course we did some cam using whatever was at hand, I was wearing a mid green T shirt and darker green trousers, using different coloured mud and ash from the fire we covered ourselves in random patterns and used leaves to add their shape as well. Having done this we were given the task of moving from point A to point B without being seen, this was in a busy country park with our instructor asking people if they had seen us, I think most people made it OK. This was still using Shape, Shine/Surface, Shadow, Silhoette, Spacing, Movement and Smell principal.
I find DPM on it's own looks quite dark from a distance or at night, a bit of a blob. Mid Grey colours work well at night, found this out when on my COP course, the instructors would visit us at night wearing Grey jackets and trousers which were very hard to see as they approached.
Just a little insight for you ,
Brian
On your lighter trousers and darker top theme, I've seen pictures of US Navy SEALS and MAC V SOG wearing light Tiger stripe trousers and the darker ERDL/Woodland cam top which seemed to work for them. On a Wild Live course we did some cam using whatever was at hand, I was wearing a mid green T shirt and darker green trousers, using different coloured mud and ash from the fire we covered ourselves in random patterns and used leaves to add their shape as well. Having done this we were given the task of moving from point A to point B without being seen, this was in a busy country park with our instructor asking people if they had seen us, I think most people made it OK. This was still using Shape, Shine/Surface, Shadow, Silhoette, Spacing, Movement and Smell principal.
I find DPM on it's own looks quite dark from a distance or at night, a bit of a blob. Mid Grey colours work well at night, found this out when on my COP course, the instructors would visit us at night wearing Grey jackets and trousers which were very hard to see as they approached.
Just a little insight for you
, Brian
Just to throw a spanner into the conversation....wear tartan, as bright or as muted as you like, on a Scottish hillside and you'll disappear
Tbh I reckon it's how one moves, or doesn't, when trying to be 'camouflaged' that is as critical as the colour.
The painter's overalls in birch trees sounds brilliant
Most camouflage designs are really only good for hiding the dirt on clothing
cheers,
Toddy
Tbh I reckon it's how one moves, or doesn't, when trying to be 'camouflaged' that is as critical as the colour.
The painter's overalls in birch trees sounds brilliant
Most camouflage designs are really only good for hiding the dirt on clothing
cheers,
Toddy
I got 2 reminder's only this morning about movement being the dead give away, not so much the pattern. I took my 2 lads to the local lake for a walk. We walked al around it looking at reeds and ducks and things. Suddenly just 3 feet or so away a rabbit pops up from the undergrowth, not even "in" it just in front of some cover. To be honest if it had stayed still I would not of seen it. Same with a baby frog that was jumping across the grass in front of us. I noticed that grass hopper's are still, move in a split second, then are still again.
Also, to be honest since this thread started, I find myself seeing patterns everywhere even on telly britains favorite views could use that sea weed and rocks etc
Also, to be honest since this thread started, I find myself seeing patterns everywhere even on telly britains favorite views
could use that sea weed and rocks etcToddy de ye think it possible that at one time tartans were made in strips (like the norse card weaver's) and stitched together edge to edge similar to african cloth, or was it always done on wide roll's? I'd love to see real ancient original plaids and tartan's from the roman era.
I think that seeing as all the colors originally were natural dyes the tartan's would blend with the landscape naturally??
I'd love to see real ancient original plaids and tartan's from the roman era.I think that seeing as all the colors originally were natural dyes the tartan's would blend with the landscape naturally??
Don't take it with you when you join up though...........you'll be made to suffer. Like camo, it's all about blending in till you know what you are doing.
this is an old photo and a bit small but its shows various cammos and my attempts at cammo on a rifle
Cammo is 2 things Colour and pattern
and must work at all ranges to be effective lots of the modern ones have focused over the years to lots of detail like twigs and leaves with patterns on etc these work great up very close as you can see all the work in them but step back and the detail dissapears
step way back or squint a bit and a lot blurr into a single shade/colour which is a person shaped bit of space and are totally usless
simple ones work at one range this depends on teh scale of the pattern DPM is a simple pattern and is used in variing scales ie Jacket or a Landrover
the modern patterns have seveal layers of pattern so the shape is still broken up at a distance when you cannot see all teh nice arty detail
my fav and still one of the best for me is my old Realtree Cammo which i got 15+ yrs ago in the states and is the Grandaddy of their modern stuff (you can still recognise the base patterning)
again a lot of the US company patterins are very Brown in over all shade with little green so dont IMO work well in UK hedgerows (my old one does
) but as mentioned effective Cammo from Man and animal differ ATB
Duncan
Countershading - three dimensional objects outdoors are usually lit from above and are light on top and dark underneath from shadow. Countershading is when an object is coloured darker on top and light underneath like a Thomson's gazelle http://images.google.com/images?q=t...ra&rls=en&hs=9N3&um=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
Many birds and animals have this colouring, and the Thomson's gazelle also has stripes for enhanced disruptive effect.
I think the DanCam jacket is genuine and I was fair tempted at that price but it has no hood and I think the Danish colours are better suited to summertime aswell. Flecktarn seems to have better winter colours (more brown) and used parkas have usually faded a little which makes them better for the hill. I might get a Dancam boonie from The Combat Store though.
I find when I wear camouflage when I'm walking that wild animals spot movement and jump up, but then I see them and freeze. It seems to me that although they've seen the movement they haven't distinguished my shape so they stand and look for a while rather than run straight off.
Many birds and animals have this colouring, and the Thomson's gazelle also has stripes for enhanced disruptive effect.
I think the DanCam jacket is genuine and I was fair tempted at that price but it has no hood and I think the Danish colours are better suited to summertime aswell. Flecktarn seems to have better winter colours (more brown) and used parkas have usually faded a little which makes them better for the hill. I might get a Dancam boonie from The Combat Store though.
I find when I wear camouflage when I'm walking that wild animals spot movement and jump up, but then I see them and freeze. It seems to me that although they've seen the movement they haven't distinguished my shape so they stand and look for a while rather than run straight off.
Visual camo is one thing... sounds and behaviour is another...
If you disrupt normal ("baseline") behaviour of birds and other animals (especially the vocal ones, e.g. songbirds, squirrels) then you're likely to be revealed by their alarm calls...
E.g. sitting in a tree on a squirrel's highway, the most perfect camo doesn't help... the squirrel will still stop in its tracks and freak out, announcing your presence to everyone in earshot and beyond!
Wouldn't you too, if you found a camoed up person sitting right on the path from your backdoor to your shed...??
.. learn the habits, track and sign, feeding patterns, language and as much else as you can about these vocal creatures... so you may blend into their home area and avoid being told upon...
Live and Love,
Anneke
If you disrupt normal ("baseline") behaviour of birds and other animals (especially the vocal ones, e.g. songbirds, squirrels) then you're likely to be revealed by their alarm calls...
E.g. sitting in a tree on a squirrel's highway, the most perfect camo doesn't help... the squirrel will still stop in its tracks and freak out, announcing your presence to everyone in earshot and beyond!
Wouldn't you too, if you found a camoed up person sitting right on the path from your backdoor to your shed...??
.. learn the habits, track and sign, feeding patterns, language and as much else as you can about these vocal creatures... so you may blend into their home area and avoid being told upon...
Live and Love,
Anneke
Just to throw a spanner into the conversation....wear tartan, as bright or as muted as you like, on a Scottish hillside and you'll disappear
Surely not the Barclay tartan (it's bright yellow). Aye, I did look through a tartan book to find that, I have no better use for my time
I was talking to a guy today who is ex SB and he told me that they had experimented with a "predator" type cammo for use in jungle environs. Basically it had small prisms that reflected light and therefore blended in with the foilage, the only drawback was that it was no use at night. Weird but apparently true. The rest of the conversation with him blew me away regarding the technology he used...:Wow:
I have read comments that that sort of thing is the next generation of camouflage, but it's never going to bushcrafty is it 
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