Buying land?

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Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,664
McBride, BC
"Off the grid" means that you have no community delivered services. Vehicles & generators, wells and septic fields or lagoons, those are usual.
Many rural homes have an outdoor wood-burning furnace with a recirculating liquid for heat delivery.

If the Fort McMurray wildfire made your local news, about 20% of the city was burnt to the ground in just a couple of days.
That forest fire has now burned about 4,800 km^2. This is mountain country where the fires often run up the mountain sides
at 60-80 mph. Bottom land in the valley is all agricultural and in the Agricultural Land Reserve. You cannot subdivide.

Many homes in the forested lower parts of the mountain sides. The fire risk with nowhere to run was one of the biggest reasons that I didn't consider
a rural property/home. Plus, I didn't was to fight with a frozen well and a frozen sewage system at -30C in January.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
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Florida
.....Many homes in the forested lower parts of the mountain sides. The fire risk with nowhere to run was one of the biggest reasons that I didn't consider
a rural property/home. Plus, I didn't was to fight with a frozen well and a frozen sewage system at -30C in January.

Do the deep wells freeze there. The water table is pretty near the surface here (less than 30 feet usually) but most home water wells go at least 50 feet, some up to 100 feet, to be sure of clean water. I wouldn't have thought the freeze would penetrate that deep?
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
2,293
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Unless you have an insulated lid covering the well, the surface can freeze.
Plus if you pipe the water to the house or barn, the water in the pipes freeze and the pipe bursts.

In Arctic Sweden (-50 C) they bury the insulated pipes quite deep, some even have a recirkulation system.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Unless you have an insulated lid covering the well, the surface can freeze.....

The wells we had were always accessed by an ordinary plumbing pipe from the bottom of the well to a small pump at the surface. Yes there's a chance of the pipes freezing, but no more or less than ordinary municipal water supplies, and the precautions are the same as for said municipal supplies (insulate the pipes and/or leave the water running slightly during freezing conditions.

We're not (or at least I'm not) talking about an old fashioned shallow well with a bucket.

But even those type have a water table well below the surface (usually at least 20 or 30 feet below the surface) That's why I asked how deep the freeze goes into the ground; the "surface" of the water is well below ground in those wells.

When I was a kid we did have one such old farm well. I still remember the old fashioned well buckets that filled through a valve in the bottom. They still make them:

1384.jpg
 
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Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,664
McBride, BC
While the depth of the actual well is not relevant, the frost depth in the winter does vary, perhaps 7-10' at most.
You have to know what sorts of Hoo-Haa's live in the rural areas. Many have no sense of supply
line depth. Or, they have no appetite to fix it.
 

Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,249
449
none
I'll take your word for that; it's just mind boggling that anybody bigger than a small investor, such as an individual or family, would bother with so small (3 or less residences) a venture. The people I've known who did/do it or ordinary working class; one was a now deceased Uncle who worked as a welder at a refinery in Texas, another was an air traffic controller here.


Even a second home is less common than they would like toy to believe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32393222
 

pysen78

Forager
Oct 10, 2013
201
0
Stockholm
Yeah the way to keep the supply pipes frost free is only a question of depth. Around here 60cm is the required depth for water depth an further up north you go deeper. Bedrock and other reasons for not laying them deep, can be mitigated by insulation up to a point. After that a heating cable can be installed but I wouldnt recommend that in a power outtage prone situation.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Even a second home is less common than they would like toy to believe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32393222

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing. It infers that second properties there are taxed the same as primary residences? At the moment at least. I would agree that both:
1) owning a second home isn't the standard expectation as such (although I do believe it's within the means of many, and I don't believe it should be vilified) and
2) yes, anything beyond your primary residence should be taxed differently (meaning at a higher rate)

I suppose the best way to explain the philosophy behind most states' property taxes (the homestead exemption) is to say that they begin with the assumption that real property tax, based on the property's assessed value, assumes that the property is for commercial purposes (be that as a shop, factory, warehouse, or as a rented residential property) and then lessen the tax burden on the primary residence by granting the Homestead Exemption.

There are probably dozens of different ways to accomplish that philosophy fairly but the point is that yes, a house as a place to live should be taxed at one rate (allowing people to affordably live there) and second properties should be taxed at a higher rate. Before anybody points out the obvious, yes, I already know that a property owner will (and morally should) pass on the higher tax costs to any renters as a matter of business, but the additional tax revenue could offset the higher rent costs if used properly.
 
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boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
77
Cornwall
Fortunately for me and others like us land in the UK is not taxed unlike houses. Is some land without buildings exempt in the States? From a quick look it seemed not for personally owned amenity land.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Fortunately for me and others like us land in the UK is not taxed unlike houses. Is some land without buildings exempt in the States? From a quick look it seemed not for personally owned amenity land.

Every state has it's own tax structure. There are no federal property taxes of any kind, and no state I've ever been in has any state property tax (that I know of) They're all local: municipal and/or county with the derived revenue being the primary funding for the counties'/cities' schools, police, and fire protection.

I still own the 73 acres of unimproved land in Mississippi that I've mentioned previously and yes, it is taxed by the county with my last year's tax being just over $200. When I was in my mid teens Moma put a mobile home on it that we lived in for a couple of years. Said mobile home, not being a permanent structure, did not count as a property improvement so the assessed property value did not increase. Therefore the homestead exemption resulted in our taxes being $0 for the duration (if we had built a house instead the resulting property value increase would have raised the base taxes that the exemption is calculated from and most likely still have resulted in some taxes being due)

So the answer to your question is that, yes, property without "permanent" buildings can sometimes be completely tax exempt (if you live on that property) but not unoccupied property. The key determining factors being 1) property value (which is affected by whether or not there are buildings on it) and 2) whether it's the primary residence or not.

There is also a decades long battle going on more locally. In Santa Rosa County (about 20 miles from here) the county is trying to taxes property (the houses on land leased from the federal government) While the government owns the actual real property, it has leased it (in the form of individual residential lots for 99 year leases for less than $100) to individuals who built homes on those lots.

The county wants to collect taxes on the home value, claiming (rightfully so) that the residents are benefiting from county services without contributing.

However the residents claim (rightfully so) that they don't own the land and:
a) when the lease expires they will have to forfeit the improvements (the homes) back to the landowner, the federal government (assuming they don't renew) and
b) that the county has no way to enforce the taxes anyway as they can't foreclose on property owned by the federal government.
 
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nic a char

Settler
Dec 23, 2014
591
1
scotland
You still need, and have, electricity and a working computer. Or you would not be able to participate here.

so computers = on grid? laptops can easily be run/charged off a small wind/water generator - I suppose internet providers = external services
 

nic a char

Settler
Dec 23, 2014
591
1
scotland
sounds good to me, Robson! But you'll have a good pension - when you say professor, is that teacher as in France, or head of Uni/College department?
 

nic a char

Settler
Dec 23, 2014
591
1
scotland
I feel like some people on this thread don't quite realise how badly the buy-to-let market is further marginalizing the majority of young people and slightly less well off, and allowing those who were lucky enough to buy a house virtually mortgage free in the 80's with a lucrative 80k household income at the age of 50, and can afford to buy 1-3 other properties, to rent out at hundreds each month in the only country in Europe without rent controls. Then complain about how there is no such thing as a free meal while they retire on the desparity of the falling minimum wage and vote UKIP.

Rant over

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

that's not a rant - that's factual.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,664
McBride, BC
I use the term "professor" very loosely. 31 years teaching university biology and dendrology courses. The pension is just OK.
By moving away from the city, my cost of living is about 60% of what it used to be. Even now, making comparisons with friends still back there.
My home has more than doubled in market value in the the last 10 years. But I'd have to sell it to see it. My kids will.

I haven't been entirely debt free for more than a couple of years. I recall thinking: "Oh, isn't this nice." But it didn't trigger a spending spree, either.
Just made it far easier to save for big money projects like a new roof.
 

didicoy

Full Member
Mar 7, 2013
541
12
fens
Fortunately for me and others like us land in the UK is not taxed unlike houses. Is some land without buildings exempt in the States? From a quick look it seemed not for personally owned amenity land.
land in the UK is subject to capital gains tax at the point of sale. There is a type of Entrepreneurs relief. (Subject to conditions, must be used for business in the last qualifying year) Therefore capital gains is payable on any profit from the original purchase price or the value of the land at March 1882. The capital gains tax on the profit from the sale of land is set at 18% Every person can claim the first £10k +annual tax allowance. The entrepreneurs relief allows a annual tax exemption on the next £10k at 10% CGT rate. The remainder of profit is then taxed at 18% please excuse me if my figures quoted are not correct. I'm wading through the tax mine field. What I'm wanting to say is tax is payable on profit raised from the sale of land. If anyone can explain in greater detail, I would appreciate it.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
land in the UK is subject to capital gains tax at the point of sale.......

Capital gains taxes apply here as well in most states, although Florida, Mississippi, and several others exempt that as well if you've actually lived in the property for a minimum ammount of time (that time varies with different states) However I was talking (and I believe Boatman as well) about property taxes: an annual taxed assessed against the value of the property (usually in the form of a millage rate)
 
morgage free in the 80's where were you? unemployment was at 12%, its currently at about 6%
and that's with 8 million less people, interest rates were up to 20% at one point too, more people lost teir homes,jobs communities than they re ever likely too again.

The idea that middle England own 2-3 properties as private land lords is rubbish, the land owners of old didn't drop to the middle classes it just went off soil...
I wonder if that's the actual unemployment figures or the ones that were fiddled by the govt. And got pulled up on it because of the way they reclassed the definition of 'unemployed'

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
 

Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,249
449
none
I agree there is always some manipulation, there was also alot more under reporting in the 1980's, its headline news if 100 jobs go in any sector now but back then mines,docks who industries were shipped abroad.

Now all we have is a service industry

I did however get my dates a little ary - the excesses in the 80's spilled over until the early 90's which was where the preverbial real hit the fan...
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,664
McBride, BC
Just noticed today that there are a few more homes in McBride up for sale.
Here's the deal:
You buy an average 3 bedroom home with central heating (as expected).
You come over in the spring/summer/fall and camp/trek your buns off.
You hire a property manager to fill the house with families (not hoo-haws), a week at a time, during snowmobile season.
Hotels and motel costs kill the families, not just the rooms but the lack of facilities to dry suits, make meals and pack trail lunches.

McBride has been voted as the #1 snowmobile destination in North America.

One motel required photo ID just to walk around an estimated $6,000,000 in trucks, trailers and sleds.
This place really jumps in winter.

1 ton truck: $90,000. Enclosed trailer: $25,000. Just four tricked up hot sleds: $75,000.
Bring 200 of those rigs into the village.

Google McBride. Not such a bad place, any time of year.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Just noticed today that there are a few more homes in McBride up for sale.
Here's the deal:
You buy an average 3 bedroom home with central heating (as expected).
You come over in the spring/summer/fall and camp/trek your buns off.
You hire a property manager to fill the house with families (not hoo-haws), a week at a time, during snowmobile season.
Hotels and motel costs kill the families, not just the rooms but the lack of facilities to dry suits, make meals and pack trail lunches.

McBride has been voted as the #1 snowmobile destination in North America.

One motel required photo ID just to walk around an estimated $6,000,000 in trucks, trailers and sleds.
This place really jumps in winter.

1 ton truck: $90,000. Enclosed trailer: $25,000. Just four tricked up hot sleds: $75,000.
Bring 200 of those rigs into the village.

Google McBride. Not such a bad place, any time of year.

Lots of snowbirds do something similar in order to over-winter here. Some come down and rent for the winter while others show up in their RVs. I assume many of them are renting their Canadian or northern US homes out to fund their over-wintering here.
 
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