brass pans

[rancid badger]

I had my eye on a cauldron type pan today in a charity shop.
it was made of a single sheet of 1/8th brass, with a 3/8ths thick steel hangy handle which was secured with very heavy copper rod rivets-it was about a foot across the top and maybe nine inches across the base.
It wasn't, or at least it didn't look like, a decorative "shiney thing" it looked like it was made for doing a job.
They had £8.50p on it and I almost coughed up.
The question is can you use brass pans for cooking!
if so I'll be back into town in the morning!
regards
R.B.

 

[Toddy]

That was what we call a jeely pan. Basically it's for making jam. Known as a Maslin pan they're now made in aluminium and stainless steel.
A tiny portion of the copper from the brass used to leach into the jam and it stopped the mould growing.
They're good pans but thin on the bottom.
£8.50 was a good price for a sound one.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[rancid badger]

That was what we call a jeely pan. Basically it's for making jam. Known as a Maslin pan they're now made in aluminium and stainless steel.
A tiny portion of the copper from the brass used to leach into the jam and it stopped the mould growing.
They're good pans but thin on the bottom.
£8.50 was a good price for a sound one.

cheers,
Toddy

Thanks Toddy!
thats me off back into the town tomorrow!

 

[Toddy]

Check the bottom, if it goes "boing" when you press it then it's really getting to the end of it's useful life. It's not dead until there's a hole, but they do get sticky when you boil stuff if they've worn too thin.
Mine was my Grandmother's and it still makes good jelly but jam just sticks now.

They polish up nicely and look kind of cool hanging around if you've space...like copper kettles

cheers,
Toddy

 

[rancid badger]

well here it is:

thing is; is it a pan or a coal scuttle? the bottom is as thick as the sides and goes thunk when you tap it! I'm not too bothered if it is a coal scuttle mind you its a cracking doobey dangle for £8.95 either way! ( could have sworn it was £8.50:bluThinki )
Cheers
R.B.

 

[Toddy]

Oh very nice find
That's such a neat shaped one too, and it looks virtually new. Well done.
That's more cauldron looking than mine, I bet it would work well over an open fire as well as on a hob.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[rancid badger]

Oh very nice find
That's such a neat shaped one too, and it looks virtually new. Well done.
That's more cauldron looking than mine, I bet it would work well over an open fire as well as on a hob.

cheers,
Toddy

I had similar thoughts about the open fire
Thank you very much for your advice Toddy, I'll let you all know how it behaves over the winter.
Kind regards
R.B.

 

[John Fenna]

Oh! - that looks good!
What do folk in Geordieshire cook in cauldrons?
How civilized are they now?

 

[Burnt Ash]

The copper cookware used by serious chefs was traditionally 'tinned' on the inside. These days, they seem to be mostly lined with stainless steel. It is possible to have the older kind of copper cookware retinned, but it is fairly expensive. Remember that pukka copper cookware is very pricey to start with: certainly, well north of £100 for the larger pots.
It might be worth making enquiries at a shop that sells high end cookware. Even with the cost of retinning, you may still have a bargain. Alternatively, you could try to tin your pot yourself. I saw instructions for this somewhere, once.

BTW, Toddy, I'd say that if there was enough copper going into your jam to prevent mould growth, it would be more copper than was good for you (which is why copper cookware is tinned or stainless steel lined).

Burnt Ash

 

[Burnt Ash]

Retinning of copper pots can be done by Thomas Gameson & Sons Ltd. http://www.gameson.co.uk/page11.html

Burnt Ash

 

[rancid badger]

that looks interesting, and certainly not expensive. it's going to be p&p that puts the cost up a bit but they seem to look nice when done and safe to use for food as well.
Cheers ash
R.B.

 

[Toddy]

BTW, Toddy, I'd say that if there was enough copper going into your jam to prevent mould growth, it would be more copper than was good for you (which is why copper cookware is tinned or stainless steel lined).

Burnt Ash

I suppose that depends on just how much jam you can eat But it's a tiny proportion. For over twenty years I made 200 jars of jam a year, my grandmother did likewise for thirty years before me and the pan is 'still' sound, if getting a bitty thin.

The fruit acids dissolve a little of the metal from many pots, not just brass ones (better than copper which gets 'eaten' away, aluminium becomes very badly pitted and even stainless steel becomes stained.

I dye and I use mordants to do so, I researched the metals most commonly used; iron, alum, copper, tin & chrome.
I'd rather trust the copper than I would tin to be honest. The pollution from tin is so bad I just refuse to use it, it is implicated in the feminization of invertebrates at the bottom end of the food chain.
I know my brass pans are an alloy that contains tin but it's more stable in alloy.....why do you think the copper pans need to be re-tinned? It gets eaten away.

The only issue with brass is whether or not it is arsenical tin or not. Arsenical tin melts and flows better, keeps a harder edge (too much and it's brittle though) (Bronze Age weapons I'm an archaeologist), and it's 'shiny' , think Bling of the period Modern Indian brass supposedly makes much use of arsenical tin.

A tinned copper kettle, used only to boil water is a different thing from a cooking pot.
With a brass or copper pan, don't leave food sitting in it, especially acidic food. Cooking in them though, the heat is evenly distributed and they're much lighter than cast iron.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Burnt Ash]

I suppose that depends on just how much jam you can eat But it's a tiny proportion. For over twenty years I made 200 jars of jam a year, my grandmother did likewise for thirty years before me and the pan is 'still' sound, if getting a bitty thin.

The fruit acids dissolve a little of the metal from many pots, not just brass ones (better than copper which gets 'eaten' away, aluminium becomes very badly pitted and even stainless steel becomes stained.

I dye and I use mordants to do so, I researched the metals most commonly used; iron, alum, copper, tin & chrome.
I'd rather trust the copper than I would tin to be honest. The pollution from tin is so bad I just refuse to use it, it is implicated in the feminization of invertebrates at the bottom end of the food chain.
I know my brass pans are an alloy that contains tin but it's more stable in alloy.....why do you think the copper pans need to be re-tinned? It gets eaten away.

The only issue with brass is whether or not it is arsenical tin or not. Arsenical tin melts and flows better, keeps a harder edge (too much and it's brittle though) (Bronze Age weapons I'm an archaeologist), and it's 'shiny' , think Bling of the period Modern Indian brass supposedly makes much use of arsenical tin.

A tinned copper kettle, used only to boil water is a different thing from a cooking pot.
With a brass or copper pan, don't leave food sitting in it, especially acidic food. Cooking in them though, the heat is evenly distributed and they're much lighter than cast iron.

cheers,
Toddy

I'm happy that you're hale and well after 20+ years of jam making , but I do stand by my comment that dissolved copper salts are not very good for you. Toxicity is usually related to dose, though one must watch out for toxins that accumulate in the body, such as heavy metals (e.g., mercury, cadmium, lead). The reason that tin is used for coating copper cookware is that it does not dissolve (and form toxic compounds) in the sorts of things that are typically cooked in cooking pots. It's also why we have 'tin' cans, which should -strictly speaking -correctly be called 'tinned' cans.
I would agree that if you were boiling water in a copper kettle, there shouldn't be anything in the water to dissolve the copper. But water isn't always pure. I remember a corrosion lecture when we were told the story of an old boy who had succumbed to lead poisoning. He was always the first to come into his local pub at opening time and, naturally, had the first pint of beer drawn by the landlord. Unfortunately, it was an old pub (and the landlord not particularly attentive to his cellaring duties). The pipes were lead and the beer lying in them between opening hours was plumbo-solvent...
The useful alloys of copper are many. In general, where the principal alloying element is tin, these alloys are called tin bronzes. Where the principal alloying element is zinc, these alloys are known as brasses (yellow brasses).

Burnt Ash
(metallurgist)

 

[Toddy]

Useful man, you will no doubt be inundated with questions on metals now.

Tinning a can is very good, for some foods, however, nowadays more and more cans, especially for fruit, are lined with a plastic coating.

While I do agree that copper is not a good thing in any quantity, domestic water supplies make use of it, kettles, pots and the like are traditional and seem to cause no long term issues, and jam making in a brass pan has a long history. I suspect the portion of dissolved copper is minute, indeed it is a common addition, with zinc in multi vitamin and mineral tablets.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[mr dazzler]

It is possible to have the older kind of copper cookware retinned, but it is fairly expensive. Remember that pukka copper cookware is very pricey to start with: certainly, well north of £100 for the larger pots.

I went to a factory in villediue over in france where the blokes make copper pan's by spinning copper disc's on lathe former's. Top skill, they hand hammer some item's as well. Some of the metal was about 3 milm thick. Some of the pan's were tinned some left plain. I think you could get a jam pan for about £50-£60

 

[Burnt Ash]

Useful man, you will no doubt be inundated with questions on metals now.

Heaven forfend!

Tinning a can is very good, for some foods, however, nowadays more and more cans, especially for fruit, are lined with a plastic coating.

Yes, the old style 'tinned' cans are increasingly being superseded.

While I do agree that copper is not a good thing in any quantity, domestic water supplies make use of it, kettles, pots and the like are traditional and seem to cause no long term issues, and jam making in a brass pan has a long history. I suspect the portion of dissolved copper is minute, indeed it is a common addition, with zinc in multi vitamin and mineral tablets.

It's the dose thing again. We do need traces of certain elements that in greater quantity would be toxic. These are usually available to us in a balanced diet, or through properly dosed dietary supplements. For myself, I'd be a little wary of getting more than was good for me through contamination.

Onwards!

Burnt Ash

 

[Burnt Ash]

I went to a factory in villediue over in france where the blokes make copper pan's by spinning copper disc's on lathe former's. Top skill, they hand hammer some item's as well. Some of the metal was about 3 milm thick. Some of the pan's were tinned some left plain. I think you could get a jam pan for about £50-£60

I visited Villedieu-les-poêles many years ago. Interesting place. This is one company there http://www.cunillexport.com

Burnt Ash

 

[Tengu]

Its a great bargain.

But dont use it for anything with vinegar, Mrs Beeton warns against contaminants from the pot that way

 

[jojo]

On the subject of metals, I remember reading some years back, than even stainless steel leach heavy metals in the food you cook in it. Maybe it was a scare story then just like aluminium being linked to Alzheimer's disease. Any idea if it is still thought?

 

[Mike Ameling]

Do you remember that old nursery rhyme?

Peas porridge hot.
Peas porridge cold.
Peas porridge in the pot
Nine days old!

Well, it referred to keeping a pot of soup/stew on the back of the wood/peat cook stove where it kept so-so warm. When you prepared the next meal, you pulled it over to the hot part of the stove to heat it back up, and stirred in extra ingredients to help fill the pot back up. When done, you pushed it back to a cooler part of the stove to "keep warm". You kept this up until you cleaned out the pot at a meal - then you started over.

Well, that practice is part of what gave copper and brass cooking pots/kettles their bad reputation. That food sat in those pots for anywhere from hours to days. That constant contact allowed the food to pick up metal particles leached out of the pot. And, since the pot was seldom cleaned, it slowly tarnished (corroded or oxidized) and that also got into the food. Plus, people ate food several times a day every day that was cooked in those copper/brass pots. The accumulation of all this added up to that metal toxicity that eventually started affecting their health. And so that "bad reputation" of copper and brass cooking pots/kettles developed. It never happened with the copper/brass tea kettles, but they only heated up water, and that water didn't absorb all that built up crud. (Plus, lime deposits inside the kettle helped coat the insides to keep the water away from the metal.)

The main problem with copper/brass is those … oxides … that form on them - that tarnish and/or verdegris (green crud). If you keep the pot/kettle crupulously clean, most of the problems go away. The second big problem is storing food in them for more than an hour or so. That long-term contact allows the acids in the food to "leach" out metal particles.

If you remove the two main problems, then using copper/brass pots/kettles to cook in becomes relatively safe - even with acidic foods. (Of course, this only applies to people who are not hyper-sensitive to copper or other metals.) Just clean your pots very very well, and remove the cooked food right after you are done.

To give an example of this, just look to the British royal families. Their cooks/kitchens use unlined copper pots/kettles to cook in all the time. But they are "religiously" cleaned/polished with each use. And this has been going on for decades, if not centuries. Hmmm … wait a minute ... given some of the antics of some of the Royals … um … this might not be the best example to use … hmmm ... Never Mind.

I personally use a small, unlined copper kettle to cook in when out on my 18th Century treks or outings. And I also use a brass mug. I do not have any worries about such occasional use. But I also keep them very clean!

Hmmm ... again. Mayhap that would explain some of my ... excentricities? Naaaay ... I came by my present level of sanity naturally, without the help of heavy metals. Just the occasional adult beverage, a few shrooms, some bad fermented corn, and an occasional "trip" to some of the more exotic recreational areas around the world to meet-n-greet the natives.

Every metal gives off some particles when you cook in them. Every metal! It then becomes a matter of how much it gives off, and how that metal affects your personal body and its health. Example - cast iron frypans. They give off a little iron into the food you fry up. But a little extra iron in a person's diet is usually good for them.

Most tin linings come off through scraping/stirring the food while cooking - instead of leaching off. Even using wooden spoons still wears a little on that tin lining - just not as much. Plus, the actual alloys in that tin can vary. As noted before, sometimes it even includes things like arsenic. And sometimes you even need to worry about the solder used to seal the seams/joints. Occasionally that solder has lots of lead mixed in with the tin.

There are a number of places that NICKEL PLATE the insides of copper and brass pots/kettles. They electroplate that coating on. It ends up being a much harder and better lining material - as long as you aren't allergic/sensitive to nickel.

So, the level of concern about cooking in brass or copper pots/kettles is a concern, but not as DIRE as most are led to believe. It then comes down to the level or "dose" of metals you receive in your food.

But ultimately, it's all a matter of personal choice. Only you can decide to use your brass pot/kettle for cooking or not.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands