Bear Grylls and Scouting

[boatman]

As a non- christian I find it offensive that I cannot partake of communion - where those who proffess to being Christian get free biscuits and wine.
I think that as a non believer I should be allowed this free snack!
What about MY human rights!
Is that not the argument here .. in a modified form?

But if the sign on the door of the church said come on in for a snack EVERYBODY then you lined up inside dribbling in eager anticipation only to have the goodies snatched away from you. It might be a bit upsetting. I think an eight year-old might be quite miserable. Of course, with welfare being handed over to charities this might well be the situation for adults unwilling to sing a hymn for their soup as used to be the case but that would be alright then?

Oddly if the situation were reversed and a secular group tried it with a religious person they would find themselves at odds with the law and wouldn't the Christian Institute go to town on the case?

 

[Maxip]

Not quite what I thought the thread would be, given the title.

Anyway, just my 2p as a Scout Leader - The Scout Promise (as stated by Scout HQ) requires that young members have faith / belief in a Supreme Being but does not exclude any religions. For a Leader, The Scout Association in the United Kingdom requires adult leaders to implement the Association's religious policy which encourages members to belong to some religious body. I read this as encouraged, not mandated.

Back on track - Scouting in the UK (and probably globally) is suffering for many reasons with one of the main ones being the lack of Adult leaders / helpers. Having BG as our Chief Scout is (IMHO) excellent as he can & will encourage adults to get involved in activities both for themselves and the young persons. I'm trying in my Group / Troop to get our Scouts doing more 'back to basics' activities with simple things like outdoor pioneering, firelighting (flints / other - no matches) & backwoods cooking becoming a fixture in our diarys.

Anything that can be done by BG & others to encourage more adult participation as Leaders & helpers as well as enthusing the youth of today to get out and do something different can only be a good thing. One of the reasons I've joined this forum is to learn more about bushcraft & activities so I can learn and pass this knowledge & skills onto my Scouts as I reached my current limit of what I can teach them.

 

[boatman]

Anything that can be done by BG & others to encourage more adult participation as Leaders & helpers as well as enthusing the youth of today to get out and do something different can only be a good thing. One of the reasons I've joined this forum is to learn more about bushcraft & activities so I can learn and pass this knowledge & skills onto my Scouts as I reached my current limit of what I can teach them.

Drop the God from the promise then and stop barring honest atheists

 

[tim_n]

Boatman, I am a scout leader with no belief in God.

I asked the question of both my trainer and Gilwell, does a child have to have faith to join in with scouting. The unequivical answer I got back was "No, they are often too young to have made such decisions or to understand the importance of doing so, if a child should say they have no faith this may change with understanding time". Not given in writing of course. I've never heard of a child being excluded on grounds of faith and hopefully never will. Faith of course is not automatically defined as 'faith in god' but also faith in other people such as buddhism. If I lend a friend £10, I have faith that they will pay me back. If a friend comes over to help paint my garage doors, he has faith in me that I will help him. That is acceptable as faith.

I have not yet found a child or person who does not have any faith in anyone or anything. The requirements are very broad (some say too broad) and acceptable from the scout association.

The organisation does have spiritual aims, but it very much depends on the scout leader.

My troop does not say prayers, we are 'multi faith'. We attend rememberance day parades to remember what sacrifices have been made. That is about it.

At the end of the day, what matters to the majority of our kids (of which I now have 17) is that they have a stable place in their lives where they can concentrate on developing themselves. I have several kids who have suffered abuse, several disabled through mental illness and most of the rest are from one parent families. I have to act as an extended parent to them, some have had no male role models and have litterally been a few steps away from exclusion from school or more serious crimes. The reports we get back are always positive, scouting having had massive effects on their lives.

In two nights time we'll be going on a simple night hike - many will be reading a map for the first time, I know several are afraid of the dark, we'll be cooking (first time a few will have cooked) and the achievements that come back won't be calculable. I don't see any religion, but they'll have faith that their patrol leader or leader will bring them back alive...

* I realise at this point you'll probably come back and say it's not written down anywhere my comments from Gilwell over faith, my warrant says I'm buddhist. It works for the SA and it works for me. Otherwise I could have gone agnostic, because like it or not, I can't prove or disprove anything in spirituality and frankly have better things to do with my time making sure some of the youngsters in my care regain some of their childhood.

**understanding and time sounds too much like we're indoctrinating, but what they mean is as they mature and understand what we're talking about rather than forcing them either way.

 

[Prawnster]

Boatman, I am a scout leader with no belief in God.

I asked the question of both my trainer and Gilwell, does a child have to have faith to join in with scouting. The unequivical answer I got back was "No, they are often too young to have made such decisions or to understand the importance of doing so, if a child should say they have no faith this may change with understanding time". Not given in writing of course. I've never heard of a child being excluded on grounds of faith and hopefully never will. Faith of course is not automatically defined as 'faith in god' but also faith in other people such as buddhism. If I lend a friend £10, I have faith that they will pay me back. If a friend comes over to help paint my garage doors, he has faith in me that I will help him. That is acceptable as faith.

I have not yet found a child or person who does not have any faith in anyone or anything. The requirements are very broad (some say too broad) and acceptable from the scout association.

The organisation does have spiritual aims, but it very much depends on the scout leader.

My troop does not say prayers, we are 'multi faith'. We attend rememberance day parades to remember what sacrifices have been made. That is about it.

At the end of the day, what matters to the majority of our kids (of which I now have 17) is that they have a stable place in their lives where they can concentrate on developing themselves. I have several kids who have suffered abuse, several disabled through mental illness and most of the rest are from one parent families. I have to act as an extended parent to them, some have had no male role models and have litterally been a few steps away from exclusion from school or more serious crimes. The reports we get back are always positive, scouting having had massive effects on their lives.

In two nights time we'll be going on a simple night hike - many will be reading a map for the first time, I know several are afraid of the dark, we'll be cooking (first time a few will have cooked) and the achievements that come back won't be calculable. I don't see any religion, but they'll have faith that their patrol leader or leader will bring them back alive...

* I realise at this point you'll probably come back and say it's not written down anywhere my comments from Gilwell over faith, my warrant says I'm buddhist. It works for the SA and it works for me. Otherwise I could have gone agnostic, because like it or not, I can't prove or disprove anything in spirituality and frankly have better things to do with my time making sure some of the youngsters in my care regain some of their childhood.

**understanding and time sounds too much like we're indoctrinating, but what they mean is as they mature and understand what we're talking about rather than forcing them either way.

A truly excellent post.

 

[FerlasDave]

Back when I waas a scout all we did was tie knots and play rounders? If they were trying to push faith on me then I was oblivious. Later on in my late school years I was a non-believer as were my friends and we couldnt care less for God and relegion.

Now though after finding real faith, I am proud to be a Christian and am not ashamed to admit it.

 

[kawasemi]

They didn't ask the National Secular Society, for example, who have long had this problem with scouting. Not that the NSS represent non-believers but the Scouting mindset is that only religious opinions count. How much are you willing to bet that Gilwell will not give you a straight answer?

:sun: Straight answer from HQ...

1. FULL WARRANTED members of the association need to 'recognise the existence of a higher being' (including someone declared as agnostic)
2. An Atheist CAN join the association as an Associate Member and operate as a section assistant or skills instructor

Here is the link...and I've learnt something as well

http://scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search/?cat=25,285

I'll say no more

kawasemi

 

[nunzionuk]

:sun: Straight answer from HQ...

1. FULL WARRANTED members of the association need to 'recognise the existence of a higher being' (including someone declared as agnostic)
2. An Atheist CAN join the association as an Associate Member and operate as a section assistant or skills instructor

Here is the link...and I've learnt something as well

http://scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search/?cat=25,285

I'll say no more

kawasemi

So that pretty much excludes Buddhism and Taoism from being FULL WARRANTED members? What about Wicca? Or even Pagen?

Its such a narrow view from the scouts, that I am shocked, and upset that I could never become a leader given that.

 

[John Fenna]

Sheesh - what is the problem?
Folk are annoyed that an organisation that has a stated religious mission (in a VERY broad manner) does not want non-religious folk to deliver that message?
Kids of any or no religion are welcomed as long as they recognise that they will have some sort of religious information given to them (in my experience in 15 years as a leader that amounted to one church parade at a jamboree and talks from a Bhuddist and a born again Christian about what they believed in)....
Would you go to a church that had athiests preaching the word of God?
Would you go to an athiest meeting where Muslim Clerics taught there is no God?
It aint gonna happen is it?!
If you do not belive in a god of one sort or another you are not going to want to put the argument that there is a higher power over to the young folk very well.
If you want to join anyway (and god alone knows why you would want to if you so violently disagree with the organisations stance) perhaps to share your skills with young people then join as an instructor or ASL...
I personally found that the amount of religious instruction/indoctrination given to our Scouts was minimal - mostly in a "compare and contrast" manner and about what other folk belived not in a "this is what to follow" way.
The requirements of the Scout Assoc were met without trying to warp young minds, by leaders who had already made their minds up as to what they wanted to follow - and religion was seen as a private afair for the concience of the individual.
If that is not accepting enough for anyone then I fail to see why they would want to be a Warranted Scout Leader anyway (unless the uniform, badges and endless paperwork for no pay apealled hugely) - why join something that is so contradictory to your views?

 

[Maxip]

Buddhism is not excluded - the change in the promise is Buddhists should use only the words ‘my Dharma’ (see my link in earlier post). The Scout Association requires belief in a higher being and AFAIK, Wicca do believe in a higher being(s) namely the Triple Goddess and Horned God. As I understand it, Taoism is more a philosophy / way of life (or self belief) and isn't a recognised religion per se.

I am not an expert in religious beliefs but am a enthusiastic Scout Leader - the requirements around religion / beliefs / etc are there to promote the development of the young people and help them become complete people. In our group, we do not 'preach', attend Church or participate in other religious activities but do take part in Remembrance Services as these are NOT about religion but remembering others.

What would be great for Scouting is that some of the enthusiasm being discussed here was channelled into the Association to help young people - they need exposure to adults with all types of beliefs & views as that is part of the development & learning and having these types of discussions with people with opposing or 'new' views should be beneficial. I would welcome anyone from a different religious belief or with strong self-belief to talk to our kids as without learning about the differences between religions / races, they will not be able to make an truly informed decision about their own personal beliefs.

There are comments along the lines of "I won't help because of the Scout Association views on religion" but that is just bunkum - people either want to help with Scouts / Cadets / Guides / Boys Brigade / Youth Club / Sports clubs / etc or they don't...simple as that.

 

[Northern Light]

An interesting discussion.
Like him or not, Bear is getting scouting talked about, so I guess he`s doing a good job as Chief Scout.
For those of no religion, but want to pass on knowledge to the youngsters, join as a `skills instructor`.

 

[PeterH]

I am with John on this, if you don't like it don't join no-one is making you.

The original protagonist has their facts wrong but they probably know that and are using an opportunity to express their views. Instead of all the opinions just read the actual policy and rules if you are that interested they are clear.

Young people

The Scout Association is part of a worldwide educational youth movement. The values, which underpin and inspire its work are embodied in the Scout Promise and Law and in the Purpose of the Association.
Within this framework, the Association is committed to equality of opportunity for all young people.
Accordingly:
a. The Scout Association is committed to extending Scouting, its Purpose and Method to young people in all parts of society.
b. No young person should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

• class
• ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race
• gender
• marital or sexual status
• mental or physical ability
• political or religious belief

All Members of the Movement should seek to practise that equality, especially in promoting access to Scouting for young people in all parts of society. The Scout Association opposes all forms of racism.

So there is no bar on young people for the reason claimed, full stop.

Leaders and other volunteers

To carry out its work the Association seeks to appoint effective and appropriate leaders, and to involve other volunteers in supporting roles, all of whom are required to accept fully the responsibilities of their commitment.
The overriding considerations in making all appointments in Scouting shall be the safety and security of young people, and their continued development in accordance with the Purpose of the Association.
Accordingly, all those whom the Movement accepts as volunteers must be ‘fit and proper’ persons to undertake the duties of the particular position to which they have been appointed (including, if relevant, meeting the requirements of the Sponsoring Authority) and, where appropriate, the responsibilities of membership.
In making an appointment to a particular leadership or support position it may be appropriate to consider the gender and/or ethnicity of the potential appointee, in particular to ensure appropriate composition of leadership or supporting teams.
The physical and mental ability of a particular potential appointee to fulfil a particular role will always be a relevant factor to consider.
Within these constraints, and those imposed by the need to ensure:

• the safety and security of young people
• the continued development of young people
• equal opportunities for all

No person volunteering their services should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

• age
• class
• ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race
• gender
• marital or sexual status
• mental or physical ability
• political or religious belief

Note: Paedophilia is a bar to any involvement in the Scout Movement.
Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a leadership position.

So it is very specific "the avowed absence of religious belief" and "leadership position" and there is a whole range of roles that are not "leadership" and it allows discussion of what are "religious beliefs" with the appointing body.

However as has been said no-one is forcing you to join .....

 

[boatman]

How can you say that one is wrong then quote that absence of belief is a bar thereby saying one was right. Doublethink isn't in it. Do you also admit that Scouts claim to be comprehensive yet are not?

 

[kawasemi]

Good to see the Chief Scout working hard and getting some of the old Scouting values and skills practised: Click here .... and the kids having a great time to boot!

Woody.

O.P.

Kawasemi

 

[John Fenna]

How can you say that one is wrong then quote that absence of belief is a bar thereby saying one was right. Doublethink isn't in it. Do you also admit that Scouts claim to be comprehensive yet are not?

If you dont like Scouts, what they stand for, what they do or any other aspect of Scouting then go find (or found) an organisation you do like.
Scouts are what they are, state what they are and do what they do to the benefit of vast numbers of young people around the world.
Why ragg on about the fact that a tiny minority of the worlds population is debarred from holding a leadership position?
Is it such a big deal? (Being a warranted Leader was a real PITA after being a free and easy Asst Leader!)
If so then thee and me live on separate ethical planets .
By the way - just so it is not seen as an issue - I have no religious beliefs and my understanding of "higher beings" would probably not fit with the majority understanding of such things but none of this barred me from holding a warrant for 15 years.
Personally I find Bear a bit of a prat - but he has enthused a lot of Scouts!

 

[boatman]

Who said you are a Nazi? Just refute the logic or agree that the institution needs reform and I don't believe abuse is within the spirit of either Bushcraft or Scouting. A minority is a minority whatever that is based on AND it is children who cannot join as well as adults but you seem incapable of grasping that elementary point because you are in denial and do not want it to be true.

 

[John Fenna]

The minority I refer to is the athiests who want, need and desire a Warrant in Scouting - the only ones affected by the Scouts - In world terms that has to be a tiny minority!
Implying I am some kind ofNazi earns you a place on my ignore list as I think you are just a **** strirring, lame brained Twonk - just my personal opinion but I believe that I have a right to my belief!
Tarra!

 

[boatman]

TWONK
	Derogitary term, roughly equivalent to idiot. More insulting than berk, but less insulting that gimp. Thought to originate in the Victorian Era meaning a lower-class foreigner

 

[craig]

Bear Grylls has been good for Scout as it has help to get adults involved and keep the kids engaged. I personally think he show boats a lot for the camera but apart from that have no problem with him. About the other discussion in this thread see my sig.

 

[johnboy]

Who said you are a Nazi? Just refute the logic or agree that the institution needs reform and I don't believe abuse is within the spirit of either Bushcraft or Scouting. A minority is a minority whatever that is based on AND it is children who cannot join as well as adults but you seem incapable of grasping that elementary point because you are in denial and do not want it to be true.

Mmmm why not extensively edit your earlier post.... Oh you have....


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