Bear Grylls and Scouting

[roger-uk]

Went to watch my son gain his silver cub award as he moves up to scouts. I was ignorant of the Christian push until then. I was surprised as to how they are ' programming ' them with prayer and hymn. Me an my partner being closer to paganism were the only ones not to join in hymn and prayer.
Nearly all the parents seemed like regular church goers. I'm not going to go on. Just found it all a bit strong and even though I acknowledge the good the movement does , I can't agree with the ' imprinting '

The Mighty Oak Is Merely A Nut Who Stood His Ground

Chisller,

The groups and packs vary from Church attached groups to those like mine where I do faith and try and cover all religions briefly but prefer to be awed at the wonder of nature. I prefer to do faith without religion. You will find Scouting is a very broad subject from outdoors to crafts to Faith.

As Dave Allen used to Say "May your God go wth you".

 

[Whittler Kev]

Nice one.
I hope he didn't show them how to use a bow drill as he looks like he can't use one in all the progs I've seen and the drill is the wrong way up in the scouting book.
Did they have to jump from the top of the tower into a tree to break their fall

 

[Chiseller]

Chisller,

but prefer to be awed at the wonder of nature. .

As Dave Allen used to Say "May your God go wth you".

*tips hat*

Cheers


The Mighty Oak Is Merely A Nut Who Stood His Ground

 

[spiritwalker]

not defending them here (I have my own beliefs) but any school you put a child through has a faith it follows and broadcasts, I believe people choose for themselves in the end no matter how much people bang on about stuff. Personally i would have loved to have gone to the scouts but my father was against the idea when i was young (not really sure why) I agree with some of the above Bear Grylls love him or hate him he is a good figure to get todays switched off kids involved. Live and let live i say we all should have a choice and besides from my experience the more people bang on to sub and teenage kids about something the more likely they are to shun it when they are older ;-D get them outside enjoying the natural world even if it does fall under a banner ;-)

 

[gliderrider]

Unless this is off-topic it is worth pointing out that Bear represents an organisation that excludes those who do not subscribe to a god as members including Brownies as well as adults wanting to help. He seems happy to support the distress of young children who in all respects apart from hypocrisy would make very good Scouts. No, the organisation has not changed except I believe it patronisingly accepts assistance from atheists not full members. IOf course those who lie to gain admittance are not really scouts nor are those who lie about the comprehensive nature of Scouting.

"If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, .............................. ................ he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge, and never be allowed to wear it again" Baden-Powell

I have no idea of Ray's beliefs which at least have not been paraded.​

You sir are dead wrong.

a. Scouting is open to all faiths and musttherefore take account of the differentreligious obligations of its Members whileupholding the essential spirit of the Promise.b. In each Promise the phrase 'Duty to God' or,in the case of Beaver Scouts, 'to love God',is suitable for most faiths (includingChristians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims andSikhs).c. Hindus may use either the words 'myDharma' or 'God'.d. Muslims may use the word 'Allah' in place of'God'.e. Buddhists should use only the words 'myDharma'.f.​

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Muslims may use the phrase ‘In the name of​

Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most

Merciful​

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in place of ‘On my honour’ when​

making the Promise.g. Where some other form of wording isrequired for a member of a particular faith orreligion advice should be sought fromHeadquarters.h. Similarly it is accepted that foreign residentswho may become Members of theAssociation owe allegiance to their owncountry.i. To meet these circumstances the phrase'duty to The Queen' should be replaced bythe phrase 'duty to the country in which I am​

now living'.
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​

The full PDF is here http://www.scouts.org.uk/documents/por/2011updates/POR_full_2011[v3].pdf (not sure why the link isnt working, try cutting & pasteing into the URL box)

Anyway, a few weeks ago bear flew around the country visiting scout camps, some of our young leaders saw him at Drum Hill and said he seams like a decent bloke. Just a shame he comes across as a plonker on the telly, still I dare say if a film crew followed me round I'd come across as a bit strange some of the time.
​

 

[PeterH]

Bear makes no secret of his personal beliefs, listen to last weeks Desert Island Discs for example, scouting to me is about faith, belief, values and attitude, it is not about religious labels.

And to get us back to the BCUK I appreciate

Atheism is a non-prophet organization - - - gets coat ....

 

[spiritwalker]

aye in one of his books i have there is a whole chapter dedicated to Christian faith fortunately it was at the end so it didnt completely spoil it for me. To me its a personal thing that shouldnt be banged on about too much unless drunk around the fire and quickly moving along to a chat about aliens under the stars

 

[gliderrider]

oh dear oh dear, thats so bad its funny.

Spirit, is that bear or BP? try "Mud Sweat & Tears, he doesnt bang on all the time, but is is clear how much it means to him.

 

[boatman]

gliderider I am not wrong, the passage quoted says that Scouting is open to those of all faiths not however, and this is crucial, open to those of no faith. No deletion of the words to honour or love god is allowed except that it is substituted for by an appropriate alternative religious figure or belief. It is so plain that rather than pretending that it does not exist the Scouting movement should be working to remove such a bar to those of no faith. Headquarters are only to be contacted when the practitioner of another faith has problems, not, presumably when the difficulty is that a young boy wishes to join with his friends but can clearly see the lie he is being asked to make and is placed in an impossible position.

Accept this and the problem vanishes

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][h=3][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]A Traditional Outlander Scout Promise [/FONT][/h] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]On my honor I promise to do my best:
To render service to my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

Simply ask Scouting HQ for a clear statement that atheists may join and you will not get a clear and simple answer because the answer is going to be no.

 

[spiritwalker]

faith 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Bushcraft is a Faith

 

[boatman]

They only apply the 4th definition to faith

From example questions for would be volunteers to Scouting, just please stop denying that atheist adults and children are barred:

On the application form you have put ‘atheist’. Can you describe what you mean by ‘atheist’?
Given that the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to becoming a Member of The Scout Association, if the
adult is certain that there is no ‘higher being’ they will not be able to become a Member of The Scout Association.

 

[johnboy]

Fundamentally what is the issue???

An organisation has a set of rules for membership. In this case Scouts.

If you want to belong to the organisation you follow it's rules...

If you dont agree with the rules then don't join... I think it really is that simple...

That saves you and the organisation a whole bunch of grief...

Moaning about the rules and how they are interpreted is going to achieve what???

If UK scouting was out of touch with the populace and the rules were restrictive or oppressive to kids joining then I suspect there would be a dearth of members.

Is that the case...

 

[gliderrider]

Ahh, I see your problem, I read it that you'r argument was that it was restrictive to faiths other than christianity, not the absense of faith.

In that case, I agree, in my interview for helper I was asked which denomination I was, as I had left it blank, I explained I was agnostic, and was told that was OK, but Athiest would have been a problem.

I DO believe in things, some are common lines to christianity, jewdaism, Islam etc(well, the bits that say "be cool too each other", anyway), some are not. I did not give my opinions on organised religion, as these are quite strong, yet at the same time I did'nt lie or lead them to believe it was somthing other than what it is. I am open to the idea of god, but not some of the injustice done in his/her/their name. I could go on, but it then gets a bit controversial, so its best to stop.

 

[kawasemi]

This is the associations religious policy:

Religious policy


The Scout Movement includes members of many different forms of religion. The following policy has received the approval of the heads of the leading religious bodies in the United Kingdom.
All Members of the Movement are encouraged to:

• make every effort to progress in the understanding and observance of the Promise to do their best to do their duty to God
• belong to some religious body
• carry into daily practice what they profess

There is a lot of hearsay as to what leaders can/cannot do and whether they need to declare a religion. I believe that the association would be discriminating against an adult if they declare no faith and completely refuse some form of membership. The policies refer to people being encouraged to follow a faith but the key is that whatever a leader personally feels, it cannot have an impact on the development of a young person.

...but maybe that is interpretation and heresay! The real answer is to phone HQ at Gilwell and ask rather than bat opinions around on here...if I think on I'll do it tomorrow.

kawasemi

 

[boatman]

This is the associations religious policy:

Religious policy


The Scout Movement includes members of many different forms of religion. The following policy has received the approval of the heads of the leading religious bodies in the United Kingdom...........
kawasemi

They didn't ask the National Secular Society, for example, who have long had this problem with scouting. Not that the NSS represent non-believers but the Scouting mindset is that only religious opinions count. How much are you willing to bet that Gilwell will not give you a straight answer?

 

[boatman]

Fundamentally what is the issue???

An organisation has a set of rules for membership. In this case Scouts.

If you want to belong to the organisation you follow it's rules...

If you dont agree with the rules then don't join... I think it really is that simple...

That saves you and the organisation a whole bunch of grief...

Moaning about the rules and how they are interpreted is going to achieve what???

If UK scouting was out of touch with the populace and the rules were restrictive or oppressive to kids joining then I suspect there would be a dearth of members.

Is that the case...

The Scouts claim to be welcoming and comprehensive, they are not.
If they were overtly religious like the Boys Brigade, no problem but their claims and practice are at variance and they receive benefits from the State although they discriminate so they are not a purely private organisation.

 

[johnboy]

The Scouts claim to be welcoming and comprehensive, they are not.
If they were overtly religious like the Boys Brigade, no problem but their claims and practice are at variance and they receive benefits from the State although they discriminate so they are not a purely private organisation.

Scoutings pretty straightforward isn't it?? At the risk of overly simplifying things Scouts go along 1 night a week do some fun stuff then have camps and jamborees do some fund raising stuff work towards badges and awards, get outdoors a bit etc... The scouts enjoy themselves have fun make friends and for some it becomes a life changing thing...

I generally don't think of the Scouting movement as an evangelist organization,I do think of it as a hugely positive thing. It has its own welldeveloped: system, values and ethos all of this is open 10 minutes on google and you'll know fundamentally what you are getting into. Either you like it or you don't....

 

[boatman]

Either you like it or you don't....

But don't like it if you are an honest non-believer.

 

[johnboy]

Is it really that much of an issue for you???

I commend the fact that you've obviously put a lot of time and effort into researching the scouts religious stand point..

But they have their stand point and values which like it or not you have to respect... Isn't you're point more about folks 'dishonesty' in assisting for the scouting movement and claiming they have a faith structure of some description when they don't .... As opposed to being 'honest' non believers....

Perhaps the dishonest non believers are simply pragmatic folk who's simply say I have more to give and gain by taking part in scouting than not... They'd rather get involved and have fun than stand outside chucking stones....

 

[John Fenna]

As a non- christian I find it offensive that I cannot partake of communion - where those who proffess to being Christian get free biscuits and wine.
I think that as a non believer I should be allowed this free snack!
What about MY human rights!
Is that not the argument here .. in a modified form?