Bear Grylls and Scouting

[boatman]

We understand that councils are receiving less money from central government and they are seeking to raise money in other ways. This affects Scout groups in two main areas:
Increasing the rents we pay – Scout groups that own their properties negotiate a lease with their council over a number of years. The payments for this lease are called “ground rent”. As these leases come up for renewal, some councils are opting to increase ground rent by many thousands of pounds.
Removing charity discretionary discounts - local taxes on property are called “rates”. Scout groups that own their properties are expected to pay these rates just as any business would. However, because Scout groups have charitable status, we receive a discount. This discount amounts to 80% of rates and is paid by central government. Councils can also pay the remaining 20% of the rates on behalf of local Scout groups – this additional help is called a discretionary rate. Many councils are now removing the 20% discretionary rate to save money.

 

[boatman]

22nd January 2007: Government pledges £1.5 million to Scouting Jamboree
Cabinet Office Minister Ed Miliband, today put almost £1.5million behind plans to host 40,000 scouts from 216 countries at this summer's Centenary World Scout Jamboree.

 

[johnboy]

22nd January 2007: Government pledges £1.5 millionto Scouting Jamboree
Cabinet Office Minister Ed Miliband, today put almost £1.5million behind plans to host 40,000 scouts from 216 countries at this summer's Centenary World Scout Jamboree.

Your name's not Terry Sanderson is it???

 

[Manacles]

Just been catching up on this thread and not really sure why there is suddenly so much rancour. If anyone doesn't like Scout/Guides/Bear Brylls who or whatever that's fine they have a choice - don't join. But then don't denigrate the organisation if you don't like it or its rules, simply stop moaning and find another one you do like, it really is as easy as that.

Incidentally I saw an earlier reference to Bear Grylls being called Bear - it is not actually a post upper class moniker it goes back to when he and his sister were very young kids and she had yet to learn to say Edward, so he was called teddy (as in bear) and it stuck as a family pet name.

 

[JohnC]

I dont mind Bear, I think he's increased interest in scouting, we've had a fair increase in the local scout troop that I help at occasionally, and the "bushcraft" content of it has certainly increased with us (fires, knives, green field camping, outdoor cookery). The scout magazine I get has regular sections/ articles (some from BCUK members I believe). The team here are hoping to restart the ?venture scouts section as the older youths are still maintaining an interest.

 

[Manacles]

I dont mind Bear, I think he's increased interest in scouting, we've had a fair increase in the local scout troop that I help at occasionally, and the "bushcraft" content of it has certainly increased with us (fires, knives, green field camping, outdoor cookery). The scout magazine I get has regular sections/ articles (some from BCUK members I believe). The team here are hoing to restart the ?venture scouts section as the older youths are still maintaining an interest.

I'm with you on this John, I think he's good for Scouting, and our troop has had increased membership since he was made Chief Scout, which is obviously good for us.

 

[boatman]

One final time, it is not a question of not joining if you don't agree with what an organisation does. Scouting claims to invite everybody but it does not. Its officials actually connive at their own rules being bent by encouraging people to lie. So, they don't care about their own rules, people involved with scoutiong at local level don't do any religious or spiritual things as the website says they do.

If there is mass indifference to the religiosity of Scouting and it has been shown to do positive harm by excluding youngsters to their distress why not dispense with the offending form of words or allow variations?

What is trolling about the above? Especially because so many on this forum tell us what a wonderful introduction to bushcraft scouting was. I want to help improve the organisations not harm them.

What can even John the Offended find objectionable?

 

[darrenleroy]

Just been catching up on this thread and not really sure why there is suddenly so much rancour. If anyone doesn't like Scout/Guides/Bear Brylls who or whatever that's fine they have a choice - don't join. But then don't denigrate the organisation if you don't like it or its rules, simply stop moaning and find another one you do like, it really is as easy as that.

Incidentally I saw an earlier reference to Bear Grylls being called Bear - it is not actually a post upper class moniker it goes back to when he and his sister were very young kids and she had yet to learn to say Edward, so he was called teddy (as in bear) and it stuck as a family pet name.

Which he has now adopted as his legal name. It reminds me of those horsey, county set types called Bunny or Bunty or Tigger. Get a proper name! I blame Nanny for not discouraging the nickname in the nursery.

 

[roger-uk]

Boatman,

If you don't understand now then there is little point in explaining it further. You have your agenda.

I run a successful Cub pack and have NEVER had to refuse a Cub entry or indeed a Leader. I am probably the most awkward in the District declaring myself as an agnsostic and run my life as such.

Scouts don't do religion they do Faith although there are church based groups Catholics, Jewish, C of E , Mulsim to name but a few. They do faith and my interpretation of Faith is very wide.

I have never met John but I would not expect him to be easily offended but suspect he does not suffer fools gladly.

If you don't like Scouting the way it is then put you money where your mouth is an set up an alternative in your style. Others have done so in the past.

Me - I'll butt out now as I've too many things to organise for next year - i know I do scouting well - The kids tell me so in words and in their faces.

 

[Tadpole]

What is trolling about the above? Especially because so many on this forum tell us what a wonderful introduction to bushcraft scouting was. I want to help improve the organisations not harm them.

What can even John the Offended find objectionable?

When you say 'improve' do you actually mean dictate the way they are run,in order to meet your core beliefs. Who has voted you as a role model to worth emulating?
You don’t need to mess about trying to fix something that is not broken.

 

[darrenleroy]

Just been catching up on this thread and not really sure why there is suddenly so much rancour. If anyone doesn't like Scout/Guides/Bear Brylls who or whatever that's fine they have a choice - don't join. But then don't denigrate the organisation if you don't like it or its rules, simply stop moaning and find another one you do like, it really is as easy as that.

Incidentally I saw an earlier reference to Bear Grylls being called Bear - it is not actually a post upper class moniker it goes back to when he and his sister were very young kids and she had yet to learn to say Edward, so he was called teddy (as in bear) and it stuck as a family pet name.

Manacles, I agree with you up to a point. We all know the rules. It's just that in this case the rules are unfair in their exclusion of atheists, and this is what Boatman and a couple others on here are flagging. If Scouting were one of many bushcraft-friendly organisations aimed at children one could join or lead it would be less of a problem, but it is by far and away the biggest organisation and a massive part of Britain's cultural heritage. Almost everyone I know has been involved in Scouting in some form.

The person joining or leading could just keep quiet about his lack of faith but this would be in essence dishonest; a lie and not in keeping with point one of the Scout law. To exclude a minority of Britain's population because of a tenet of Scouting that is rarely explored ie spirituality seems to me to be at best pointless and at worst unfair.

Had enough now. Although I've always got time to slate 'Bear' Grylls!

 

[johnboy]

Manacles, I agree with you up to a point. We all know the rules. It's just that in this case the rules are unfair in their exclusion of atheists, and this is what Boatman and a couple others on here are flagging. If Scouting were one of many bushcraft-friendly organisations aimed at children one could join or lead it would be less of a problem, but it is by far and away the biggest organisation and a massive part of Britain's cultural heritage. Almost everyone I know has been involved in Scouting in some form

But the thing is a rules ' fairness' generally depends on if the rule affects you or your view point adversely..

It seems to me that the scouts generally are very accommodating to diverse groups. As an adult you could join and take part help and assist as an associate member without having to declare any religious or spiritual affiliation.

IMHO Its not really about lack of access to the organization but more about wanting to change it. The NSS website is full of 'cases and examples' of faith and religion in scouting which they believe is fundamentally wrong it's all very emotive..

Read this and tell me what you think of it??

http://www.secularism.org.uk/132448.html


I like to think of myself as Open minded and educated but I honestly do not know what to make of that....????

The guts of it is scouting works and has done so for a long time...

 

[John Fenna]

AS I see it....
I have had my say.
I am not easily offended, I do not suffer fools gladly (or otherwise!).
Boatman seems to have his own agenda and has hijacked this thread to discuss not Scouting but "religion" - against the rules.
He is determined to try and offend me personally - especially by implying that I am some sort of Nazi because I concider that Scouting is about as accomodating as is humanly posibl for an organisation that declares itself to have a Spiritual/religious agenda.
He is on my ignore list but I cannot avoid seeing his diatribes as other folk keep quoting him...
So - as I do not like this thread anymore - I am avoiding it!
Tarra!

 

[darrenleroy]

But the thing is a rules ' fairness' generally depends on if the rule affects you or your view point adversely..

It seems to me that the scouts generally are very accommodating to diverse groups. As an adult you could join and take part help and assist as an associate member without having to declare any religious or spiritual affiliation.

IMHO Its not really about lack of access to the organization but more about wanting to change it. The NSS website is full of 'cases and examples' of faith and religion in scouting which they believe is fundamentally wrong it's all very emotive..

Read this and tell me what you think of it??

http://www.secularism.org.uk/132448.html


I like to think of myself as Open minded and educated but I honestly do not know what to make of that....????

The guts of it is scouting works and has done so for a long time...

Ethnically and religiously segregated Scouting is the inevitable fallout of multiculturalism. We as a society have allowed immigrant faiths to gain parity with the mainstream cultural faith of the host country. I consider this to be divisive and cowardly. Some sections of the immigrant community are saying, 'we want a piece of you, but on our terms.' And because a combination of successive governments and hand-wringing do-gooders (including Scouting policy makers) view being non-white, non-Christian as beyond reproach or even criticism, this policy is allowed to develop and expand.

The thought of the sons and daughters of immigrants going to religiously and racially segregated tax payer-funded schools sticks in my craw. That it spills over into Scouting is beyond the pale.

 

[johnboy]

Ethnically and religiously segregated Scouting is the inevitable fallout of multiculturalism. We as a society have allowed immigrant faiths to gain parity with the mainstream cultural faith of the host country. I consider this to be divisive and cowardly. Some sections of the immigrant community are saying, 'we want a piece of you, but on our terms.' And because a combination of successive governments and hand-wringing do-gooders (including Scouting policy makers) view being non-white, non-Christian as beyond reproach or even criticism, this policy is allowed to develop and expand.

The thought of the sons and daughters of immigrants going to religiously and racially segregated tax payer-funded schools sticks in my craw. That it spills over into Scouting is beyond the pale.

So your not a fan of immigrants or multiculturalism then???

 

[nunzionuk]

I don't think any one who lives in major cities truely is.

 

[Robbi]

careful lads !

 

[johnboy]

careful lads !

Robbi you are quite correct...

 

[darrenleroy]

So your not a fan of immigrants or multiculturalism then???

I'm not a fan of immigration when it is detrimental to the cultural, emotional wellbeing or financial wealth of a society. Immigrants I have no problem with. It's the policy that needs attention.

Multiculturalism by definition is many cultures side-by-side. I'm an integrationist. A united society is a more positive place for all to live. Especially Scouts.

And yes, I live in London, a big city.

Guys, as long as we can discuss issues surrounding bushcraft in an adult way I think these topics are of interest, however tangential. Bushcrafters tend to be independent of mind and spirit and often say things that don't conform to the status quo. It's what makes us so interesting!

 

[Ivan...]

darrenleroy, i see you are an ex journalist , not being rude did you write for a tabloid ? You have a choice as a parent as to wether you agree with scouting policies etc , so you can decide to let your child join or not , as parents we only guide children. and hope they turn out to be decent members of society.
Just not sure a bushcraft site is the best place to raise the issue of immigration, in my opinion the scouting movement is good grounding for kids , even if some of the rules are a little outdated.

And as for the Bear Grylls thing ,for all the irresponsible things he does on screen ( please remember its only entertainment ) i think his involvement with the scouts can only be a good thing .