Bear Grylls and Scouting

[Tadpole]

And children are not affected?
Snip

I was very upset to learn that my daughter cannot take part in her Brownies enrolment this month.

The most relevant part of the whole ’lets speak to the press about it’. Notice that it is not the daughter who is upset, but the mother. It speaks a tale.

 

[Prawnster]

You obviously suffer from a lack of faith then. Strenuous keyboard mashing brought about by righteous rage should have thickened those fingers up by now!

I have faith that no matter how mashed up my keyboard gets, the techie geeks at PC world will fix it no problem. Now thats blind faith!!

 

[Prawnster]

Love exists, but can you prove it? (not Just demonstrate it) should be a piece of cake...

Excellent!!

I'll use that one, if I may

 

[kawasemi]

1. Bear Grylls' real name is Edward. 'Bear' is the kind of stupid, upper-class nickname with macho associations used to bolster his image.

2. His stated military career is opaque at best. Was he in the full or reserve British army, and at what rank? And for how long? Look at the Wikipedia entry and the dates of his accident while parachuting. It just looks odd. Some clarity is needed and again it smacks of someone trying to make a name for himself through actions that may not be wholly attributable. We all know the pub bore who 'used to be in two Para' or 'was involved in special forces' when in reality he spent his two years' national service peeling spuds in the camp kitchen.

3. His shows owe less to an appreciation and understanding of nature and bushcraft and more to flashy attention grabbing stunts.

4. I have been told (although not proven) Grylls has kicked staff of set when filming if he hears them swearing.

4. On discovering I was a fan Ray Mears without prompting signed his new book on photography and gave it to my courier friend who was delivering plane tickets to his residence. That's a nice thing to do.

To me, and this is just a hunch Grylls just seems to be a bit of a fraud. All flash and self-promotion. I'll take the quiet approach of Mears any day and I think his methods are more suited to scouting and developing a lifelong love of nature. But I suppose Grylls grabs the headlines and that gets bums on seats (or cubs in scout huts.)

Regarding atheism in Scouting: it seems those in power have made a pig's ear of the situation. It has been allowed to fester and in our modern, multi-cultural world (God, I hate that term and everything it represents) disallowing atheists to lead is an anachronism that wouldn't be tolerated in almost any other scenario.

Having said that, Scouting always has had an element of spirituality at its core and if atheists don't agree I see no reason why they can't join the Woodcraft Folk or the Cadets. They are not compelled to join Scouts. Unfortunately having a specific belief, or no belief and determinedly following that path means that not all groups are open to you. If you're Muslim don't grumble about not being able to eat pork. If you're an atheist don't grumble about not becoming a Scout leader.

And public funds ie taxes used to support Scouting can't be used as an argument why one should be allowed to be a Scout leader. Yes, your taxes are being used to fund something you're excluded from but our taxes often are spent on things we fundamentally disagree with, but that's democracy.

I like this post - application of logic

o..by the way, I politely ask my students to leave my class if they start swearing...they can come back when they can keep a civil tongue in their mouths

kawasemi

 

[Huon]

Faith in the geeks at PC World? Now that is worrying.... and blind.

I have faith that no matter how mashed up my keyboard gets, the techie geeks at PC world will fix it no problem. Now thats blind faith!!

 

[darrenleroy]

And children are not affected?

Caroline Mason, whose daughter cannot join the Brownies because she is unwilling to make the promise to god – or pretend that she believes.Mrs Mason has written to the Girl Guiding Association (GGA) as follows:

I was very upset to learn that my daughter cannot take part in her Brownies enrolment this month. As a family I am bringing up my children with strong morals, but no religious belief. This is our choice as parents and I do not understand why my daughter should be excluded from something because of it. She made the decision, when given the choice just to say the words anyway, not to enrol as “I don’t believe in a God, so that would be a lie”. I will not encourage my daughter to make a false promise. No baby is born on this planet with an inherent belief in God. Belief in God is something that is encouraged by parents or schools. I was therefore offended to be informed by your headquarters that:
“You promise to ‘love my God’, which is our interpretation of the spiritual dimension of the journey that you go on throughout your life, asking the bigger questions of the world around you. We understand that for young people, as it is for adults at different times in their life, god can take different forms, which are not always about organised religion. For us, it’s about being open-minded, and incompatibility only comes about when someone is really and absolutely certain that spirituality is not a part of their approach to life. For many of our half a million young members, who are growing up and at a transformative time in their lives, they haven’t yet reached a final conclusion, so for most people it’s really a non-issue.”
My interpretation of ‘asking the bigger questions’ is working out your own set of values, this may or may not include a God, but is not exclusive to belief in a god.
Being open-minded is not asking a child to promise love of my God. Being open-minded would be asking them to promise to be true to their beliefs and values — of which my daughter has many — not asking her to love a God. Surely such a promise would far better reflect a child’s spiritual and moral development. Values and beliefs have many forms. My daughter’s moral values mirror the Brownie values completely, and surely this is what is important.
My daughter loves attending Brownies, and I have always encouraged it as I agree strongly with all of the Brownie values. I cannot understand why the Brownies cannot be flexible enough to allow children to promise to ‘love my values’ or ‘love my beliefs’. In the 1920s, Baden-Powell himself allowed six countries to have an alternative, non-religious version of the promise.France, the Netherlands and the Czech Republic still have a version where the God line can be left out. I know that she is welcome to continue with Brownies without enrolling, but it seems very unfair to not allow her to make a promise.

Every other aspect of society encourages equal access and opportunity for all. Indeed we have legislation which would now make the insistence of such a promise illegal in most other situations (work; school etc.). I look forward to hearing from you how you are going to stop my daughter from suffering inequality and discrimination at such an early age.

​

Reading this really makes me question the veracity of the faith element of Scouting. It seems superfluous to getting out there and learning what scouts learn and excludes people from joining.

I am a Christian (culturally, if not devoutly) but dislike the idea of scouting not being open to everyone as I believe it should. That's a shame. As the mother points out, it wouldn't happen in a work or school environment.

But looking at the situation logically, the Scouts was founded on a principal that features a spiritual belief and if that's what the organisation requires and you as a potential member don't happen to agree, you don't have to join. As an example I don't feel excluded from mosque because I don't agree with their religion.

I suppose the problem is that Scouting is so mainstream and such a part of British life that it's hard to find an alternative.

Finally, I think we're all intelligent enough and mature enough to have interesting debates when relevant to bushcraft, as I believe this debate is without calls or warnings for individuals to be barred because they don't conform to the majority view. After all, Baden-Powell was the archetypal free thinker. Bushcrafters rarely fit the norm and long may this continue.

 

[jeffz]

I used to love being in the Cubs. It's where I learned to handle a knife and make a tobacco-tin survival-kit. They also taught me how to keep my uniform in good order.

But I really resented Sunday Parades. Do they still do that?

 

[roger-uk]

I used to love being in the Cubs. It's where I learned to handle a knife and make a tobacco-tin survival-kit. They also taught me how to keep my uniform in good order.

But I really resented Sunday Parades. Do they still do that?

Been aledaer for 16 years and never done a church parade unless you count Carol service .

Must admit this is the best Troll thread I have seen for ages.

 

[boatman]

May I ask, if Church parades and spiritual guidance etc is so infrequent why does the establishment of the Scouts insist on it as the core? The National Secular Society offered to fund a poll amongst Scouts to see if the membership was in favour of change. I am not sure if the offer was rejected or ignored. However, if the idea is that Scouting in its various manifestations is the "safe" way for a child to be introduced to bushcraft what are those unable in conscience to do given the monopoly position of Scouting in many areas.

The child could of course do what I did and go it alone but parents are fussier these days.

 

[johnboy]

May I ask, if Church parades and spiritual guidance etc is so infrequent why does the establishment of the Scouts insist on it as the core? The National Secular Society offered to fund a poll amongst Scouts to see if the membership was in favour of change. I am not sure if the offer was rejected or ignored. However, if the idea is that Scouting in its various manifestations is the "safe" way for a child to be introduced to bushcraft what are those unable in conscience to do given the monopoly position of Scouting in many areas.

The child could of course do what I did and go it alone but parents are fussier these days.

Why should scouting change its standpoint to accommodate you or the wishes of the NSS??

It seems to me that you like the idea of scouting... The organization, the scale of it, the activities they do etc... But you have an issue with one aspect of scouting the requirement not to be an Aethiest..

So you have the option of finding another youth organization that does accept you. It might not have the scale of Scouting but cest la vie...

Some times in life you cannot have your cake and eat it....

Personally I'm neither for nor against the 'spiritual' aspect of scouting. It's an organization it has criteria for membership I respect that it does... If the membership criteria didn't suit me do I have a right to excessively bleat on about it and how unfair it is??

 

[Bush Matt]

For me this is a classic 'i may not like what you say, but i will fight for your right to say it'. I would have hoped to see scouting operating without the reqiurement for belief in a higher being. However since they clearly state there policy ... fair play to them. I'm sure one can find cases where this has been overzealously applied but that's not the point.

To my mind scouting is much broader than bushcraft; Grylls represents much better than Mears those elements that will appeal to the youngsters they wish to attract.

 

[John Fenna]

Why has a totally different organisation been used to illustrate a (supposed) problem with Scouting?
Guides are not Scouts....
Confused?
Not getting the facts in the right order?
Passion over-riding intellect?
or just plain trolling and trying to keep an argument going when there is no cause to answer with Scouting (AKA " being an annoying..... ach I cant be bothered...
Will people stop quoting him - I have him on my ignore list and dont want to see the drivel spouted!
Lets get back to the OP and lose this trolling thread hijacker!
Although I think that Bear is a sensationalist, cheating liar for his (awful) TV man versus nature progs I have to admit that he is doing quite a good job at getting young folk involved in Scouting - an organisation that is widely accepting of young people around the globe of any colour creed etc etc and which proves to be a positive force for harmony amongst a wide range of folk (unparrallelled IIRC) and is therefor - as Sellers and Yeatman might have put it - "A good thing"
"You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time!"
"Suck it up" if you are some of the people who are not pleased with scouting.....

 

[boatman]

I use Scout to stand for both associations to save time because both have the same policy, both claim to be open to all and are not and both receive public money to operate services closed to certain sections of the community. These are real problems and no amount of wishing will make them go away. If you are happy for both to connive at getting children to lie then fair enough John.

But I do admire the way you can both ignore and know the contents of posts, surprised you haven't trumpeted some of my spelling mistakes as evidence of my ignorance and your superiority.

 

[decorum]

Why has a totally different organisation been used to illustrate a (supposed) problem with Scouting?

Just don't let him find out that the Girl Guide Association bars half the population from either joining as a youth member or holding a full warrant as an adult (irrespective of holding a faith or not).




Oops .

 

[stoviecraig]

Hi Guys,

Just reading the thread re. Bear Grylls. I'm also a scout leader and our section has a strong bias towards bushcraft and camping and as far as the kids go they all think that Bear is a great role model for Chief Scout. Whether or not you agree with him being an 'entertainer' or 'educator', what the kids see is a guy having a great time and adventures in the outdoors which they try to emulate. What he has done is stimulate interest in bushcraft as a whole and if that inspires a generation of youngsters to keep them off the streets thats no bad thing.

 

[darrenleroy]

Hi Guys,

Just reading the thread re. Bear Grylls. I'm also a scout leader and our section has a strong bias towards bushcraft and camping and as far as the kids go they all think that Bear is a great role model for Chief Scout. Whether or not you agree with him being an 'entertainer' or 'educator', what the kids see is a guy having a great time and adventures in the outdoors which they try to emulate. What he has done is stimulate interest in bushcraft as a whole and if that inspires a generation of youngsters to keep them off the streets thats no bad thing.

Can't argue with that.

 

[stovie]

Hi Guys,

.....I'm also a scout leader and our section has a strong bias towards bushcraft and camping and as far as the kids go they all think that Bear is a great role model for Chief Scout. ......

OOOOhhhhh!!!! another stovie....maybe we could start a club

This is me with my mate...

As for beliefs...each to their own...now close the thread before it deteriorates any further

 

[Maxip]

Although I think that Bear is a sensationalist, cheating liar for his (awful) TV man versus nature progs I have to admit that he is doing quite a good job at getting young folk involved in Scouting - an organisation that is widely accepting of young people around the globe of any colour creed etc etc and which proves to be a positive force for harmony amongst a wide range of folk (unparrallelled IIRC) and is therefor - as Sellers and Yeatman might have put it - "A good thing"

Spot on!!! It doesn't matter that he hasn't really wrestled an alligator, killed a buffalo with his teeth or if he's rude to his production staff, him being Chief Scout is getting young people interested in and involved with Scouting - how can anyone think that is a bad thing. As a Scout Leader, I'd love to him hordes of kids coming along saying they want to just like Bear then get disappointed when we don't let the rappel down a tree or fish with spears rather than not coming at all.

 

[dasy2k1]

both receive public money

Err what public money?
We don't receive a penny...
Unless you count gift-aid, and any church group or society that caters for as thin a slice of people as possible can get that provided they are a registered charity

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[John Fenna]

Err what public money?
We don't receive a penny...
Unless you count gift-aid, and any church group or society that caters for as thin a slice of people as possible can get that provided they are a registered charity

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Dont encourage him - if you ignore his trolling he may go away......