Am I cruel thinking....

[BigShot]

From the article in the OP

He said Ms Walz also owned a Bengal tiger and an African lion, and had licences to keep them.

I find that part utterly bizarre. How can anyone who thinks it's ok to keep animals that size in a 15' square (that's about 4.5m for you metric-only types) box even come CLOSE to qualifying for a licence?
I'm inclined to agree that it's just cruel to keep animals caged - similar to the reason I don't own a dog despite being in a semi with a garden and a 5 minute walk from the biggest municial park in Europe!

An investigation into the bear attack is continuing, police said.

I find that a bit odd. Really, what is there to investigate?
She kept a bear in a box, got in with it and it killed her.
Just give her the award (yes, Toddy, most DEFINITELY a Darwin award-standard death there) and let the police do some real police work.

 

[scrogger]

Its beyond me why we even have zoos now. I have heard people say its so that people can be educated about animals they would otherwise never see. Or that its about animal conservation.

I went to a theme park zoo when I was younger and it really put me off and I have never been back since. There will be people at these places who really love animals and they will be in their opinion doing an excellent job and I am sure they are. Without their skill care and devotion the animal held in captivity would no doubt have a far worse lot in life.

With the media we have available to us these days and the excellent footage we can see on tv I would have thought we could educate people enough without having to keep animals behind bars. Somepeople would argue that some animals are endangered and when held in captivity we are preserving them for future generations to see. In my opinion
and I may ruffle a few feathers here I think if an animal has got to the point its species is heading towards extinction well then maybe thats what mother nature has decreed. I know as a race we do have people who kill and hunt animals for nothing other than pleasure this obviously has an impact on animal life aswell which some people may say puts the argument forward for zoos.

I best get of my or I will be here all night.

As one or 2 have said IMHO I just dont think animals in captivity has any place now when we have fantastic TV shows that show them at there best anyway.

 

[BigShot]

I may ruffle a few feathers here I think if an animal has got to the point its species is heading towards extinction well then maybe thats what mother nature has decreed.

On the whole I can't disagree much, there are a few points we could argue the toss over, but with the point I've quoted I'd struggle to even get close to agreement.

The reason so many animals are facing extinction is almost entirely down to the ham fisted way the human race destroys habitat.

Even without going to rainforests and the likes, most of the UK is nothing like it was originally. When you think of just how much forest has been cleared on this tiny Island it is staggering. Take the Red Squirrel... it faces two major threats, the pox carried by the greys and habitat loss courtesy of us.

If it's not habitat loss, it's poaching/hunting that's doing it.

I see nothing natural about it. When we act WITH nature, as we can and should, we don't do the damage we do when we act AGAINST it, which most of modern "civilisation" is doing.

 

[Siberianfury]

silly woman deserved it, what do you expect from keeping a bear in a tiny cage.

 

[scrogger]

Bigshot I totally agree with you there we have a lot to answer for as a race but as you say we could mull it over and over. We do destroy habitat and this in turn will push some poor creatures to the brink. I guess my point was that in such a circumstance catching and locking the poor blighters up is not the answer its more about how we address what we do as mankind to protect this planet and its flora and fauna for future generations.

Andy.
Hows the allotment doing by the way?

 

[Cobweb]

I hate zoo's, I refuse to go into one.
Safari parks aren't much better but at least the animals can run, jump and just be animals.

At the local safari park (West Mids) most of the animals are in huge enclosures, left to their own devices but there are a pair of leopards in a three sided glass enclosure, the back wall is concrete.
when you get into the inside bit that have about 24' by 10' enclosure and all they do is pace back and forth all day, it makes me feel sick and like breaking the glass and letting them out.

I asked one of the workers why they were kept in there and they told me that they had attacked cars! So f&*!ing what! I'd probably do the same, it doesn't excuse putting them into a GLASS enclosure
to be gawked at by thousands of tourists who hit the glass and generally intimidate them, to stick a cherry on the top, their sleeping area had the door down so they couldn't go in there to get away from
the people and the resting box area faced away from the only solid wall towards the glass so there was nowhere they could go to get away.

There is a fully caged enclosure where no cars drive through in the safari park they could've gone into.

They used to have kapibara in there, at least the kapibara didn't seem to give a toss about the people and their shelter faced away from the glass to the back wall.

Sorry for the rant. I get seriously narked off at people who have absolutely no empathy for animals. It doesn't take much to ask yourself "If I was there how would I feel?"



....and....zen...calm...breathe

 

[jojo]

I am glad it's not just me. I didn't think it would be though. I looked up briefly how big the range of a black bear would be

Males might wander a 15- to 80-square-mile (39- to 207-square-kilometer) home range

I haven't looked up for the tiger and lion but they need a huge area.

The "authorities" know that. Why on Earth do they issue "licenses"..

We humans are really quite good a finding an excuse or lots of excuses to justify our behaviour, whether it's waging war, or keeping any animal in cages.

I don't think any excuses we use, and it doesn't matter what the excuse is, are valid anymore: we know exactly what we are doing to this planet. I don't think we can hide behind any reasoning, whether scientific, or religious or economic. We are the most destructive species that has ever evolved on this planet.

There is nothing moral about most of our behaviour as a species.

As Mark Rowlands in his book "The philosopher and the Wolf" wrote:
Our complexity, our sophistication, our art, our culture, our science, our truths- our, as we like to see it, greatness: all of this we purchased, and the coin was schemes and deception. Machination and mendacity lie at the core of our superior intelligence, like worms coiled at the core of an apple."

Well worth reading.

 

[Grooveski]

I really hope the new home is better, as a kid I used to stand and cry at the polar bear pit, I thought she'd have been happier in with the penguins

It was the penguin enclosure I was in working on. Done most of the metalwork, welded up the bridge, that big statue thing and helped the concrete guys with the rebar.

A lot of the crew thought it was a shame that the bear was stuck in the pit when there was a far nicer pad going up next door. The thought that she's been stuck down there all those years is depressing.

 

[Firebringer]

Frankly I think keeping a bear in those conditions is morally abhorent.

That said however I have to recognise that I'm a complete and utter hypocrite. I will happily sit in judgement on those who keep 'wild' animals whilst at the same time purchasing meat from supermarkets which has have very probably been raised in conditions far more deplorable. Likewise I don't lose sleep that much of what I purchase has probably been made by humans in sweat shop conditions by exploited workers.

The fact that I would happily see chickens or rats die in their millions as opposed to a single Panda doesn't really have any moral basis beyond arbitrary whim.

Intellectually if not emotionally the only difference between me and her is that she was more directly involved whereas I just need to remember my pin number at the check out.

I regret the bears death but at the same time had a Lamb House Special last night from the take away.

 

[firecrest]

well to add a little clarity, I read (though Im not entirely clear as I skimmed over it this morning) it seems a neighbor shot the bear as it was still on top of her and her children present so I can understand it being shot at that paticular moment. Quite why the woman even allowed her children to present whilst opening the cage is beyond me.
As for Gerbils and Bears. It really isnt the same thing, infact Ill wind Red up and say he has anthropomorphised gerbils to an extent that is not realistic
A gerbil shows no obvious signs of stress from being raised in a cage where as a bear will show all the signs we commonly associate with insanity in humans - rocking, pacing, self injury and pica (eating excrement and objects) Even bears in the best zoos can wind up with "zooitis" as its called, a bear in a 15 foot cage would have been in an appalling state of mental ill-health.

 

[British Red]

well to add a little clarity, I read (though Im not entirely clear as I skimmed over it this morning) it seems a neighbor shot the bear as it was still on top of her and her children present so I can understand it being shot at that paticular moment. Quite why the woman even allowed her children to present whilst opening the cage is beyond me.
As for Gerbils and Bears. It really isnt the same thing, infact Ill wind Red up and say he has anthropomorphised gerbils to an extent that is not realistic
A gerbil shows no obvious signs of stress from being raised in a cage where as a bear will show all the signs we commonly associate with insanity in humans - rocking, pacing, self injury and pica (eating excrement and objects) Even bears in the best zoos can wind up with "zooitis" as its called, a bear in a 15 foot cage would have been in an appalling state of mental ill-health.

Feel free to wind me up fc

I don't anthropomorphise animals - what I said is that I don't like to see animals kept in cages - and that I don't diffentiate between bears and gerbils. For clarity I will add in hamsters and wolves

None of them are human. I would also add that I am not an expert on gerbil stress symptoms . However, if they are so happy being confined, why keep them in a cage at all? If they are happy in that space, stick them on a piece of paper the same size of the footprint of the cage and they will stay there.

Of course if they run away, its quite clear that they do not want to remain in such a confined space and would prefer to move around a larger area with more interest and stimulation. Thats all the evidence I need.

Red

 

[Toddy]

Hey, I kept the little blighters, and trust me there was no anthropomorphising..........they "needed" to burrow, they needed to gnaw, they needed to store food........I provided the wherewithall for them to do so, but in a 1m x 30cm deep cage there was no way that was a natural life.
They looked contented enough, kept producing and rearing healthy litters, lived long lives, but it still wasn't right keeping them like that.

Anyway, my 2p worth.

cheers,
M

 

[firecrest]

I think the difference is that a gerbils natural behaviours can all be excercised in a cage whereas a bear's cannot. Bears also have much more socially/intelligently complex brains. Im sure a gerbil would prefer to be in the wild, but it isnt that different from someone living in a flat wishing for a garden. But bears are different.

Ive never seen a pet gerbil doing this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZusIeLqetM

And ignore the BS comments of the zoo keeper, these are not `habits like twirling your hair` these are habits of the sensory deprived. - also seen in autistics, blind and especially blind deaf children, and neglected children

This video, showing a bear in a small cage (presumably how the shot bear looked) just makes me feel sad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tw0qC64glY

 

[rancid badger]

...some people deserve what they get?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20091005/twl-pet-350lb-bear-mauls-woman-to-death-3fd0ae9.html

15ft by 15ft cage....And also a tiger and a lion...I just don't get it..

Yes they do!

R.B.

 

[BOD]

I feel depressed now especially after reading what firecrest wrote.

The only good thing is the unanimity of members about this topic. I was waiting for a contrary view but none came.

I've hated zoos and animal acts since a child and tell my young ones that we do not have pets just animal members of the family. We have a part dingo-dog.

Recently friends who moved to Australia left their hamster with us. How can I improve the quality of hamster life given that the outdoors is a no go zone?

Just being taken out for a hamster walkies seems like exercise in a prison courtyard.

 

[jojo]

There is a name for this behaviour in captive animals:

Zoochosis

Throughout the world including the UK, thousands of zoo animals held in artificial environments with little stimulation, enrichment or opportunity to hide from the public gaze, display unnatural behaviour patterns. Even in the better¹ zoos, abnormal behaviour can be widespread, and include repeated pacing, rocking, vomiting and even self mutilation.

Some of these stereotyped¹ behaviours displayed by bored and frustrated animals have their basis in activities that occur naturally the wild. But in the impoverished confines of captivity, these behaviours can become compulsive and unnatural.

In 1992, Bill Travers first coined the term zoochosis¹ to describe this obsessive, repetitive behaviour, and described zoo animals behaving abnormally as zoochotic¹. The terms are now widely recognised and in the public domain, being used in a wide range of journals and publications.

This comes from here

Firecrest is right. I have seen this type of behaviour in people when I was still a psychiatric nurse. Also seen it in a "wildlife" park near Lowestoft where I live. The whole thing is actually really well kept, the animals are well looked after, and they have enclosures that on the face of it look quite spacious.

But you only have to start thinking about the amount of space a wild lion, for example, need to realise than the space they have there is actually quite tiny. I have seen Meerkats there who displayed that repetitive behaviour.

And also they have a enclosure with chimpanzees. One of them actually looked sad and depressed. I have met enough people suffering from depression to recognise it. Chimpanzees are much like us.

I have been there a few times with my children. Personally, I don't like the place.

 

[BorderReiver]

I don't like zoos.

But, is it better for an animal to be banged up with food and security, or starving and in danger of being killed by the same species that is destroying it's habitat?

Discuss.

 

[BOD]

I don't like zoos.

But, is it better for an animal to be banged up with food and security, or starving and in danger of being killed by the same species that is destroying it's habitat?

Discuss.

Sure lets have a few of us abducted by aliens and prodded poked and studied and kept in a small cage for the term of our life.

The Insanity of the zoo or the asylum is preferable to extinction. Discuss.

 

[BigShot]

I know which I'd choose...
...it's an extention of the "it's better to die free than to live on your knees" mentality I suppose.
Given a choice between being free and at risk of extinction and cooped up but "safe" - I'd take freedom any day.

Fortunately it's not a dilemma, there's the third option where we take some serious and decisive action to not only end, but reverse habitat loss and knock the stuffing out of poachers. I know that right now it's about as likely as Elvis turning up to give a bushcraft-themed show at a moot somehwere, but at least it's an option.

I suppose the insanity of a zoo could be argued as a means to an end if it was the only way to prevent extinction while we reestablished habitat and put protections in place with a view to releasing a viable population to the wild as soon as possible... but that's not really what most zoos are about. Pity.

 

[dogwood]

I watched a documentary on Discovery (I think) all about these people that keep dangerous animals. There was a statistic that shocked me. Apparently there are 8000 tigers kept as pets in private homes in the United States 8 flippin thousand! Are there that many in the wild?

A friend who worked in the New York City ASPA tells me they estimate there are 600 big cats held in secret in New York alone!

Here in San Francisco, there's a fairly active illicit trade in exotic animals for oriental medicine.

In basements in Chinatown bears and tigers and all manner of exotic snakes have been found awaiting slaughter for their organs.

The bears (used for bile) have it hardest of all -- they're kept in "crush cages" that are less than three feet wide and six feet long. They're kept like this to facilitate milking of the bile. The bear can't move, can't stand upright, can't lie down -- and is kept like that literlally for decades. It's beyond inhumane and is simply monstrous.

Fortunately, I don't recall a crush cage that has been found in San Francisco in about 15 years because now that the mainland is open to trade, it's less risky for people to import bear bile (also from bears in crush cages, sadly) from China. Horrifying stuff.

Nonetheless, if you spend a lot of time in Chinatown (I do) you find signs of the illegal animal trade all over.

One evening I was riding my bicycle there and found a flattened armadillo in the street -- not unusual to find in Texas, but if found in San Francsico, you know it was an animal kept in a cage for oriental medicine.

Happily, the practice of using animals in this way is something that the older generation clings to -- I don't know a single Chinese American under 50 who believes in the stuff, so eventually I hope these practices will die off outside of China proper. And someday, maybe, it will die out in China too. One can only hope.