A vision of hell

[huntergathereralex]

I wonder if anyone had these type discussions as the Western Roman Empire was collapsing? " Yep, ol' Vindolanum just ain't what it used to be..." "Vindolanum? You obviously haven't visited Londinium in a while! When I was a kid back in 420 it was a bustling..." "...can't swing a stick in the city with all the newcomers from across the Rhine pouring in..." "...and Roma, don't get me started on that cesspool..."
Cheers
(hope I won't be around in 2050)Alex

 

[British Red]

I think you might be wright Alex. I do wonder "why" we need cities now? In the industrial revolution, they made sense - but I cannot see what purpose the serve now? People do not need to be in the same place (or even the same continent) to discuss ideas, perform office work etc. Factories are mostly automated, shops deliver. Why pack people in like sardines? What purpose does it serve beyond habit?

 

[santaman2000]

Weird, or so I'm told.....mono crop honey lacks a lot somehow.....

You've never tried orange honey have you

 

[santaman2000]

Knew I'd read it somewhere....this is from Wikipedia though.

"There have been famous episodes of inebriation of humans from consuming toxic honey throughout history. For example, honey produced from nectar of Rhododendron ponticum (also known as Azalea pontica) contains alkaloids that are poisonous to humans but do not harm bees.[34] Xenophon, Aristotle, Strabo, Pliny the Elder, and Columella all document the results of eating this "maddening" honey.[35] Honey from these plants poisoned Roman troops in the first century BC under Pompey the Great when they were attacking the Heptakometes in Turkey. The Roman soldiers became delirious and nauseous after eating the toxic honey, leading to an easy defeat.[36][37]
Honey produced from the nectar of Andromeda flowers contains grayanotoxins which can paralyze the limbs, and eventually the diaphragm and result in death.[34][38] Honey obtained from Kalmia latifolia, the calico bush, mountain laurel or spoon-wood of the northern United States, and allied species such as sheep laurel (Kalmia angustifolia) can produce sickness or even death.[34][39] The nectar of the "wharangi bush", Melicope ternata, in New Zealand also produces toxic honey, and this has been fatal.[40] The dangers of toxic honey were also well-known among the Pre-Columbian residents of the Yucatán Peninsula, though this was honey produced by stingless bees, not by honey bees which are not native to the Americas.[41] Bee nectar collection from Datura plants in Mexico and Hungary, belladonna flowers, henbane (Hyoscamus niger) plants from Hungary, Serjania lethalis from Brazil, Gelsemium sempervirens from the American Southwest, and Coriaria arborea from New Zealand[42] can all result in toxic honey,[43] as can honey made from other toxic plants such as oleander.[44] Narcotic opium honey has also been reported from honey made in areas where opium poppy cultivation is widespread.[45]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bees_and_toxic_chemicals

cheers,
M

This post sounds more like an argument FOR mono crop honey than one against it. It would preclude the bees visiting any of these plants.

 

[santaman2000]

I think you might be wright Alex. I do wonder "why" we need cities now? In the industrial revolution, they made sense - but I cannot see what purpose the serve now? People do not need to be in the same place (or even the same continent) to discuss ideas, perform office work etc. Factories are mostly automated, shops deliver. Why pack people in like sardines? What purpose does it serve beyond habit?

To be honest I suspect it's mainly because there just isn't enough room to spread them out. Can you imagine 7 billion people spread out evenly? And as bad as we put down mass farming, it does have less impact on the environment (per person fed) as we get far more yield from far less land.

Bottom line is by putting them into cities, they take up a smaller footprint. And as Toddy says, many of them prefer it. And I may be wrong but I think more than three quarters of the population already live in cities (at least here)

 

[Borderer]

Agreed Santaman, and with the government saying we need to build thousands of new homes there is also the issue of where to put them. Personally I'd build on the green belt rather than see development jump over it and into the countryside proper.

 

[xylaria]

Cities have a lot of unused space that could used to grow food but arent. Outdoor Green walls are much more efficient than indoor hydroponics. Cities can make thier own soil they make enough waste. In past agriculture was a closed system, waste from animals including humans and food waste was dug into ridges. The nutrients didnt leave the circle.

There is money madesin selling food and money made from selling gardening stuff. Apples growing freely on an urban street, saved parsnip seeds, closed nutrition cycles all involve very little money . Once food becomes almost free, the idea of freedom from monetary enslavement selfsows in the human mind, and that is too dangerous an idea.

 

[sandbender]

A vision of hell indeed, however I think this might be closer to the likely reality...

 

[mrcharly]

Now there's something I don't understand. We've poured millions and expended the lives of troops in places like Helmand where poppies amongst other "medicinal" herbs are grown (in fact a huge proportion of the worlds supply) and yet we're growing it at home and burning the stuff in the fields. Why not pay the tribes to grow it as a legal crop, removing the illegality and terrorist connections whilst allowing us to have medical grade drugs at a cheap price.

It's beyond me as well. My son needed a morphine derivative after some major operations. The surgeon said it was their preferred painkiller, with fewer side effects than nearly anything else and very controllable dosages. He also said that the supply to the hospital is extremely limited and controlled.

Absolutely fracking ridiculous.

 

[carabao]

For four years I have been asking Hove city council and the Parks department if I could donate 100 fruit trees, apple various varieties, pears, cherrys, I also said that I would plant them myself. All I wanted was to be given a space to put them in Hove park, I would love to see folks with their kids picking fruit for free. Answer, thank you we need to get advise on the implications of people eating raw food grown on council land.

 

[xylaria]

For four years I have been asking Hove city council and the Parks department if I could donate 100 fruit trees, apple various varieties, pears, cherrys, I also said that I would plant them myself. All I wanted was to be given a space to put them in Hove park, I would love to see folks with their kids picking fruit for free. Answer, thank you we need to get advise on the implications of people eating raw food grown on council land.

One word TODMORDEN.
This roundabout full of bagonas has beens sponsored by B&Q that roundabout full of marigold s has been sponsored by sainsburys. Eat, sleep and obey.

 

[Toddy]

Santaman; nope, you're right, oranges don't grow here, so no I haven't tried orange honey. On the monoculture honey though, even heather honey is gathered from all the flowers of the moors, from asphodel to myrtle do the 'orange honey' collecting bees not do likewise ?

Out of literally tens of thousands of plants those few listed in the large quote are the ones known to cause problems with honey; that's it, just those few, and thankfully most of them don't grow here either Not saying some of them can't, simply that in general our beekeepers are lucky with their foraging areas.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Dave]

People of my parents generation were told, by the BBC in the fifties, that by 1984, that they would all have personal robots to do manual labour chores, we would all have flying cars, and be living in bubbles. They always get it wrong.

We do know however that the bbc is a state run media outlet, posing as a nicey nicey organisation, in much the same way that the national trust, the countries largest private landlord, which has this wonderful tea towel image, is actualy founded on a history of murder, eviction, starvation, and land grabbing. Wiped from the collective national memory.
The MOD used to be called the Ministry of War, the last thing government actually wants is real democracy, even though they tell you the opposite, Banks can create money out of thin air, as debt. Fiat monetary system. And hence create slaves. Thats all the national debt is. Interest on counterfeit money whch should never have been allowed to have been created by private institutions in the first place. Richest 1% are bankers, but richest 0.1% are CEO's of weapons manufacturers. Rise of the industrial military complex,
Bilderberg, NWO etc etc etc etc
The list goes on and on and on....
Humanity's had its shot and failed miserably.

Yet within living memory you had people like Dick Proenneke, able to go into the wilderness and build their own home, grow their own food, fish, and hunt. Presumably without state interference, or taxes, or land rights etc.

Where could you do that today, in the northern hemisphere, and be left alone?

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

It's beyond me as well. My son needed a morphine derivative after some major operations. The surgeon said it was their preferred painkiller, with fewer side effects than nearly anything else and very controllable dosages. He also said that the supply to the hospital is extremely limited and controlled.

Absolutely fracking ridiculous.

Morphine (and other opiate supply to hospitals is definitely not limited in this country. It is as you say widely used and effective. Ive never once heard of a morphine shortfall. Its relied on too much in general care and end of life pain relief to be limited

 

[mrcharly]

Morphine (and other opiate supply to hospitals is definitely not limited in this country. It is as you say widely used and effective. Ive never once heard of a morphine shortfall. Its relied on too much in general care and end of life pain relief to be limited

He implied it wasn't a shortage of supply, but restrictions on the amounts used.

My wife was a student nurse last year and it was fairly widely used in the wards and nursing homes where she did her prac. It was obvious to her how useful it was.


carabao - I'd suggest that you point Hove council in the direction of York - There are several 'community' gardens in York (raised beds planted with herb and veg). Anyone can come along and help themselves and the community looks after them. They are just on public places, not hidden away.

 

[Elen Sentier]

Who's read "The Naked Sun" ??? Writ in 1957 ...

 

[crosslandkelly]

Ah, Asimov. He had quite a vision of future societies.

 

[Elen Sentier]

Ah, Asimov. He had quite a vision of future societies.

He did indeed and they seem to get pictured on the news more and more each day ...

 

[mrcharly]

Was it Ballard who predicted that high-rises would create a complete breakdown in civilized behaviour? Hmm - yes 'High Rise'.

TBH, red, I think you are living in the past. Most people already live in cities, even in countries that have vast landscapes (like Australia). Australia lets its cities spread out into huge suburban sprawls but I don't see anything better about that than skyscrapers with vertical gardens. Last time I was in WA I was appalled to see suburbs (stretching for miles) where each house was separated by less than 6ft on *all sides*. What is better about that than a skyscraper? A bit more audible privacy maybe but at the cost of a landscape covered in ugly houses.

 

[EdS]

One word TODMORDEN.
This roundabout full of bagonas has beens sponsored by B&Q that roundabout full of marigold s has been sponsored by sainsburys. Eat, sleep and obey.

Yep Tod --- where they planted veg in a Guerrilla gardening type thing. Only to find the soil was heavily contaminated from the industrial past of the area. The fall out from that made H F-W rethink the whole approach he was advocating. Just about everything was dug up. No they suggest raised beds with clean imported soil.

It sounds easy planting up urban areas - but trust me its not. I look at the contaminated land side of planning apps in Bradford -- you wouldn't want to grow any food in many of the areas coming up for redevelopment