The Advantages of A flintlock Gun for Long Term Wilderness Living/Survival.

[santaman2000]

......Also, depending on what you are looking to hunt, I would have thought that the weight of black powder and a heavy lead ball, is going to be a poor food vs weight ratio, compared with modern centre fire ammunition. Coupled with the reliability issues and the problems of damp/ spillage of carrying a flintlock loaded whilst stalking...
I would have thought that in pure survival terms something like a 223rem would be a better choice. (Pack a chamber insert for 22lr and you have the best of both worlds.)

I don't think many of us would disagree that modern cartridges and arms for them are better. I certainly thing the modern one are better; in terms of both ballistics and convenience/ease. That said, most of us arguing for blackpowder and arms (apart from the OP perhaps)are doing so from the belief that the older arms and ammo are more than sufficient.

Lead balls are actually pretty light. A sphere has a small volume compared to a cylinder.

A .45" musket ball, for example, weighs about 138grains. That's a smallish musket ball.

Blackpowder is tiny in weight compared to anything else you are carrying. A pound of black powder is a lot of shots.

I still think that for long-term survival, a crossbow would be better.

Agreed on all points. In arguing the relative effectiveness of a crossbow (or even and ordinary bow) compared with a muzzleloader it's interesting to note that Indigenous peoples armed with the bows won more than one fight against the Europeans.

The only caveat would be that you have the skills to make new bolts and broadheads.

 

[Countryman]

Balls are light, caps are light, powder is light. Unfortunately the powder flask, capping tool, rod and ball extractor, not so much.


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[Janne]

In a long term survival situation ( total breakdown of civilization) I personally would stock up on modern stuff, but also get the ancient stuff ( bow and arrow etc) for when the supply of modern ammo runs out. Of course, if I could I would stock up on the Black powder tech.
My choices would be:
1: Modern
2: Black powder
3: Ancient

I suspect that in the beginning there would be quite a bit of violence between humans, and in that situation I would prefer to have the accurancy, speed of reloading and range of the modern gun.

After a time when most humans die out and the scares resources will be enough for the surviving few. The problem is surviving to that point.
At that point I suspect the Black Powder tech will rule, as it is chemically technologically more simple to make old fashioned Black Powder, the guns and the projectiles.

 

[Janne]

But in all fairness, getting meat by shooting animals would not be my main worry. Ants, grubs, small game like mice and rats and fish are fine.
Getting safe, drinkable water would.

 

[santaman2000]

Balls are light, caps are light, powder is light. Unfortunately the powder flask, capping tool, rod and ball extractor, not so much.


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Capping tool? Maybe, but it's also not needed. I just crimp the cap slightly between my teeth and put it on the nipple with my hands. The rod (mine anyway) is traditional wood and attached under the barrel so I really don't notice it. I've also never used a ball extractor so I don't know what they weigh.

 

[santaman2000]

But in all fairness, getting meat by shooting animals would not be my main worry. Ants, grubs, small game like mice and rats and fish are fine.
Getting safe, drinkable water would.

A lot of truth to this; depending on your location. Some places have better access to clean water than others.

 

[forrestdweller]

I would have thought that in pure survival terms something like a 223rem would be a better choice. (Pack a chamber insert for 22lr and you have the best of both worlds.)

I'm not sure if I'd choose a .223rem as first option: some countries allow it only for roe deer (== larger deer and boar require a more powerful cartridge) and from my (not voluntarily!) time of lugging an assault rifle whilst dressed in camo I remember some incidents which make me having doubts about the 5.56x45 round-- 8 or 9 rounds to kill stray dogs and a 30round magazine into a charging boar ( which choose a training area as resting place) sounds like a lot of ammo for one target (even considering the use of FMJ....) to me....?!


the OP mentions firing minie bullets from a smoothbore, but I was under the impression they were used in rifled muskets-- how accurate would they be in a smoothbore?!

 

[Janne]

The Minié projectile was designed for a rifled barell, the thin wall at the base expanded and pressed into the rifling.
pure lead projectiles tend to foul the rifling at decent pressures ( to obtain better speed and flatter trajectory) and this was a way to fix the problem.
When I was young and poor, I cast my own bullets for the .38 Spec.
A mixture of lead retrieved from the berm mixed with used wheel balancing weights worked well.
The berm lead is almost pure lead. Fouled the rifling horribly at normal loads.
I lugged a HK G3, 308 Nato and would not mind that round in a survival situation. Or that gun.
223 ? Rather that then a black powder. But preferably civilian hollow points, not the military stuff.
Forestdweller, you should have bent the tip on the 223 bullets! Result = One dog - one bullet.
You were using the army ammo which has a thick full jacket. Passes through cleanly and the wound canal is quite narrow.

 

[santaman2000]

I'm not sure if I'd choose a .223rem as first option: some countries allow it only for roe deer (== larger deer and boar require a more powerful cartridge) and from my (not voluntarily!) time of lugging an assault rifle whilst dressed in camo I remember some incidents which make me having doubts about the 5.56x45 round-- 8 or 9 rounds to kill stray dogs and a 30round magazine into a charging boar ( which choose a training area as resting place) sounds like a lot of ammo for one target (even considering the use of FMJ....) to me....?!


the OP mentions firing minie bullets from a smoothbore, but I was under the impression they were used in rifled muskets-- how accurate would they be in a smoothbore?!

......
I lugged a HK G3, 308 Nato and would not mind that round in a survival situation. Or that gun.
223 ? Rather that then a black powder. But preferably civilian hollow points, not the military stuff.
Forestdweller, you should have bent the tip on the 223 bullets! Result = One dog - one bullet.
You were using the army ammo which has a thick full jacket. Passes through cleanly and the wound canal is quite narrow.

Exactly Janne. Dump the military ammo and 223 becomes a very capable round indeed. That said, forrestdweller's comment's regarding what countries allow is still valid. In fact some countries don't allow civilians to even posses a 223 rifle.

 

[Janne]

Here in Cayman they do not issue any new permits for any rifles with a 'rifle caliber' as we do not have a suitable range or animals to hunt.
.22 LR, 9mm, .38 is ok though.

Is it only .223 Nato that is banned in those countries? Why? (seems stupid!)

 

[santaman2000]

Here in Cayman they do not issue any new permits for any rifles with a 'rifle caliber' as we do not have a suitable range or animals to hunt.
.22 LR, 9mm, .38 is ok though.

Is it only .223 Nato that is banned in those countries? Why? (seems stupid!)

I don't know all the details (not even all the countries but I believe Brazil is one) but some countries basically ban any military calibers. Interesting when you realize that many of the current popular hunting calibers began as military rounds: 30-06, 45-70, 308, 8mm, etc.

 

[santaman2000]

Here in Cayman they do not issue any new permits for any rifles with a 'rifle caliber' as we do not have a suitable range or animals to hunt.
.22 LR, 9mm, .38 is ok though.

Is it only .223 Nato that is banned in those countries? Why? (seems stupid!)

I don't know all the details (not even all the countries but I believe Brazil is one) but some countries basically ban any military calibers. Interesting when you realize that many of the current popular hunting calibers began as military rounds: 30-06, 45-70, 308, 8mm, etc.

And no, it's not just 223 NATO. To be honest the misconception that 223 and 5.56 NATO are separate calibers is just that, a myth. YES, 5.56 NATO is a bit different from most commercial loads but that's all it is; different loads (and there's more than just one NATO load) You can get faster/slower, more/less powerful, more/less penetration/expanding capability from EVERY caliber by just varying the load.

 

[Janne]

I don't know all the details (not even all the countries but I believe Brazil is one) but some countries basically ban any military calibers. Interesting when you realize that many of the current popular hunting calibers began as military rounds: 30-06, 45-70, 308, 8mm, etc.

And no, it's not just 223 NATO. To be honest the misconception that 223 and 5.56 NATO are separate calibers is just that, a myth. YES, 5.56 NATO is a bit different from most commercial loads but that's all it is; different loads (and there's more than just one NATO load) You can get faster/slower, more/less powerful, more/less penetration/expanding capability from EVERY caliber by just varying the load.

The ban on "military calibers is a typical polititian creation. No sense!
Military calibers were developed ( like most military equipment) at a great expense to be as effective and functional as possible.
Idiot decision makers!
Yes. That was the joy in handloading. I used to tailour my .38 Spec for competitions to be as soft and recoil free as possible
.
My "fun" .44 Mag load was so brutal my long suffering wife only ever shot ONE shot. And that was with a Super Redhawk with a scope which was a heavy combo. She loves .357, and shoots several hundred .12 ga a week, so she can handle recoil.
Used to do silhuette with it.

Once we have a proper rifle range I plan to get a Accurancy International in .308 W or .338 Lapua Mag, depending what the coppers allow.

 

[boatman]

Muskets were inaccurate is something we are are told in the same paragraph as the one that mentions the weapons used in pre-cartridge days. A French hand-gonner was credited with 36 English kills in the Hundred years war, some buccaneers would start their boat acquisition careers by shooting the helmsman of a ship they fancied with a musket from a pirogue, two man gun teams in Tibet shooting dinner with long matchlocks using garnets for bullets. Many other examples and probably any successes were due to familiarity with the weapon. Think of Indian matchlock men where their guns were not less effective than Company muskets but their leaders mainly were.

 

[forrestdweller]

Forestdweller, you should have bent the tip on the 223 bullets! Result = One dog - one bullet.
You were using the army ammo which has a thick full jacket. Passes through cleanly and the wound canal is quite narrow.

I happened to be in the armed forces of what's neither my country nor government (long story....) at the time of transition from G3 to G36. while the G36 is admittedly user friendly it has several shortcomings (and was generally considered not a good infantry weapon): the sights for instance suck! (speaking from personal experience!); lack of stopping power 5.56 vs. 7.62 was another complaint-- it was my platoon leader who told us the story involving the dogs: it happened during his overseas deployment on peacekeeping in former Yugoslavia: they were clearing landmines and the straydogs were walking into the minefield which meant they would likely have triggered the cursed things, so taking them down was the only option....
modifying the ammo would have been a violation of the Geneva Convention I guess....



sorry for going again.....

 

[mrcharly]

I have to say that someone who needs multiple shots from a .223 to kill a dog can't shoot for toffee. I've seen my dad drop a 2-year-old steer with one shot from a 22lr and many a roo shooter has downed a roo with a 22lr. It's where you put the shot.

If you don't hit the brain, heart or high up on the spinal cord the calibre doesn't matter a damn, any animal is going to live for a while and probably flail around. A 223 has as much muzzle energy as a 44magnum; the way some people talk about that cartridge, you'd think it was capable of blowing up tanks.

 

[santaman2000]

......A 223 has as much muzzle energy as a 44magnum; the way some people talk about that cartridge, you'd think it was capable of blowing up tanks.

Exactly so. Well said. I've also just looked up the muzzle energy of a 50 caliber round ball from a Hawkin rifle. It also has as much or more energy thn most 44 magnum loads (excepting +P loads)

Muzzle-Loaded Rifle Ballistics:

Black Powder Velocity Comparisons:
.45 Caliber Rifled Muzzleloader:
Powder Grains Volume Bullet Type and Weight Velocity
Goex FFFg 80 grains 137 grain Roundball 1861 fps.
Goex FFFg 90 grains 137 grain Roundball 1940 fps.
Goex FFg 80 grains 220 grain Conical Bullet 1500 fps.
.50 Caliber Rifled Muzzleloader:
Powder Grains Volume Bullet Type and Weight Velocity
Goex FFg 80 grains 188 grain Roundball 1730 fps.
Goex FFg 90 grains 188 grain Roundball 1870 fps.
Goex FFg 80 grains 370 grain Conical Bullet 1200 fps.


Black Powder Ballistics, Modern:
.45 Caliber Rifle, Magnum Rated, Barrel Length 28", Twist Rate 1 in 48":
Powder Grains Volume Bullet Weight And Type Muzzle Velocity Muzzle Energy Pressure
Goex FFFg 120 Grain 128 Grain Roundball 2,124 FPS. 1,283 FT.LB. 18,700 PSI.
Goex FFFg 110 Grain 128 Grain Roundball 2,043 FPS. 1,187 FT.LB. 18,000 PSI.
Goex FFg 120 Grain 245 Grain Maxi 1,894 FPS. 1,952 FT.LB. 19,500 PSI.
Goex FFg 110 Grain 245 Grain Maxi 1,823 FPS. 1,808 FT.LB. 18,900 PSI.
.50 Caliber Rifle, Magnum Rated, Barrel Length 28", Twist Rate 1 in 48":
Powder Grains Volume Bullet Weight And Type Muzzle Velocity Muzzle Energy Pressure
Goex FFFg 120 Grain 177 Grain Roundball 2,015 FPS. 1,596 FT.LB. 10,800 PSI.
Goex FFFg 110 Grain 177 Grain Roundball 1,963 FPS. 1,515 FT.LB. 10,300 PSI.
Goex FFg 120 Grain 370 Grain Maxi 1,520 FPS. 1,899 FT.LB. 12,200 PSI.
Goex FFg 110 Grain 370 Grain Maxi 1,460 FPS. 1,752 FT.LB. 11,100 PSI.
.54 Caliber Rifle, Magnum Rated, Barrel Length 28", Twist Rate 1 in 48":
Powder Grains Volume Bullet Weight And Type Muzzle Velocity Muzzle Energy Pressure
Goex FFFg 120 Grain 230 Grain Roundball 1,773 FPS. 1,606 FT.LB. 11,100 PSI.
Goex FFFg 110 Grain 230 Grain Roundball 1,728 FPS. 1,525 FT.LB. 11,000 PSI.
Goex FFg 120 Grain 430 Grain Maxi 1,440 FPS. 1,980 FT.LB. 12,900 PSI.
Goex FFg 110 Grain 430 Grain Maxi 1,379 FPS. 1,816 FT.LB. 12,000 PSI.



Compared to 44 Magnum:


Buffalo Bore Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
44 Magnum HP-GC 180 899 1500
44 Magnum JHP 180 899 1500
44 Magnum HCWC 200 750 1300
44 Magnum Keith - GC. 255 1032 1350
44 Magnum JHP 240 971 1350
44 Magnum +P+ LFN GC 340 1649 1478
44 Magnum +P SC-GC 240 1281 1550
44 Magnum LBT-LFN 305 1189 1325
44 Magnum LFN GC 270 1260 1450
44 Magnum JFN 300 1126 1300

 

[Joonsy]

perhaps you should all have a ''duel'' and be done with it

[video=youtube;jMiNbX0o2UU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMiNbX0o2UU[/video]

 

[Navek]

A little of topic maybe but For me it would all come town to if it was in a survival situation or just hunting.if I was hunting for sport I would use anything that would offer a clean kill be it 243 308 22-250 a 12 gauge slug or a 50 cal musket solid round ball...for larger quarry .... Now if it was a end of the world kind of survival situation I'd only realy be wanting to be carrying one gun packing lite moving from place to place scrounging what I could when I could then I'd go with a flint lock smooth bore as I could load it with multiple shot of diffrent size and also solids.....however if it was life and deaf and I needed to eat to survive then I wouldn't cares hat I had to use if it was a 243 a musket a bow or a blunt rock to bludgeon the quarry to get me some food

 

[Janne]

The muzzle energy is just one of several important parameters.
One very important one is how the projectile behaves in the air. Rifling increases the accurancy, be it a lead ball, Minie slug or a modern jacketed torpedo projectile.
Then we have how the projectiles behaves when hitting the target. A lead projectile passes through the soft tissue undamaged and creates a wound canal just slightly larger than the projectile - but - a round bullet creates a larger one than a pointed one.
A full metal jacket creates a very narrow wound canal ( dogs need several hits) unless it wobbles ( by bending the tip - but this worsens the accurancy a lot).
The best is of course a jacketed pointed round with the lead exposed at the tip ( hollow or lead point etc)
If you hit bone the lead projectile tend to shatter, same with jacketed ones, except when it has a dual core.

There is a reason they used very large calibers( lead ball projectiles) in the past - large wound canals, if bone is hit then the pieces are large and can penetrate deep.

Today we can take down very large animals with a well designed .22 projectile. In the past they preferred to use a huge caliber. Maybe .75 or so? You guys know more about that than I do!