The Advantages of A flintlock Gun for Long Term Wilderness Living/Survival.

[santaman2000]

They seem to be nothing more than a modern way to perpetuate a system which only allows an elite (members of a socially acceptable hunting club with "proper credentials") to hunt. As you said, our culture (system) is quite different. It revolves around making hunting available and affordable for the common man with little more than minimum wage. I have no qualms at all in asserting which is the more moral system.

Again, as to your experience, you'd be welcome on my land anytime. As to your attitude regarding hunting, not so much.

 

[Countryman]

All the guys over here that get grandfathered in say the same. However there isn't much you can do in these days of risk aversion without the paperwork to back you. It's a tick in the box.

Like it or loath it it's the way of the world and without it now, here at least, access would be restricted. Sorts the wheat from the chaff.

As an instructor, you would expect some formal qualification.


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[santaman2000]

All the guys over here that get grandfathered in say the same. However there isn't much you can do in these days of risk aversion without the paperwork to back you. It's a tick in the box.

Like it or loath it it's the way of the world and without it now, here at least, access would be restricted. Sorts the wheat from the chaff.

As an instructor, you would expect some formal qualification.


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Regarding instructors requiring some sort of certification, Well, the system I described here does require it also (as I said, they're commissioned law enforcement officers with the agency responsible for enforcement of the applicable laws) That said, there's no better instructor than close family teaching you from the day you can walk.

Agreed regarding the liabilities though. We're probably (almost certainly) far more prone to lawsuits than y'all are but I concede you're far more crowded than we are.

 

[Countryman]

I guess my attitude to hunting, which I seem to share with Janne is a European one. That said I share it with buddy's in NZ and to a certain extent Canada (seems a bit more species specific).

We just hold the animals we hunt in a higher regard. I'm dedicated to the one shot kill rather that spray and pray. Got to think it makes sense though as stressed animals don't make the best eating.


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[santaman2000]

I guess my attitude to hunting, which I seem to share with Janne is a European one. That said I share it with buddy's in NZ and to a certain extent Canada (seems a bit more species specific).

We just hold the animals we hunt in a higher regard. I'm dedicated to the one shot kill rather that spray and pray. Got to think it makes sense though as stressed animals don't make the best eating.


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I think we're more alike than the debate would imply. Neither of us wants to deliberately cause undue pain or suffering to an animal. I just won't take it to the point of religious fervor and discourage other types of hunting; and yes, we do appear to have different levels of tolerance about just what' "undue" suffering. We also seem to differ about the "high regard": for the animals we're hunting (or maybe that's also species specific as you suggested?) in that I have little or no regard for wild hogs or other vermin. Even then, I prefer as clean a kill as possible.

Regarding the taste of animals killed under stress, I've had mixed results. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The starkest example I have of the ones with no difference are the deer running from the dogs when shot. Next would be small game or fowl shot with a shotgun that still had to be dispatched after being retrieved. Although I honestly can't remember the specific examples of when it did make a difference (sorry, I'm getting old) I definitely do remember having such experiences.

 

[Countryman]

There is scientific study that show deer show no more stress from running from dogs than an athlete putting in a good run.

However a gut shot deer will be flooded with hormones, sometimes to an extent the meat won't set right in the chiller.

As a guide I've seen a number of "nasties". Couple of which I've had to clean up after. Makes you careful.

I'm glad we may not be so far apart in attitude. I can see how firing a hail of lead from a helicopter could be exhilarating but I couldn't in good concience participate. There are also other critters that I couldn't be paid to shoot. That's perhaps hypocritical to a Vegan. Yes I'm imposing my values on an animal but life is not on the line and my family can buy meat down at the supermarket.


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[Janne]

Gun permits? What are those?

Well, it is a two tier thing, really!
First hurdle, the very difficult one, is to make wife realize that you absolutely need another gun to you collection.

The second part is easy, unless you are a metally deranged wife abuser with a history of drug abuse: give a couple of documents at the local police station and pay the fee.

 

[santaman2000]

There is scientific study that show deer show no more stress from running from dogs than an athlete putting in a good run.

However a gut shot deer will be flooded with hormones, sometimes to an extent the meat won't set right in the chiller.....

Having seen the deer running in front of dogs I can easily believe that. When they come out of the underbrush and stop to look around before proceeding in the open (and knowing the dogs are about a hundred to two hundred yards behind) they really don't seem all too concerned about the dogs.

 

[santaman2000]

Well, it is a two tier thing, really!
First hurdle, the very difficult one, is to make wife realize that you absolutely need another gun to you collection..........

You mean as opposed to her new gun?

 

[santaman2000]

.....The second part is easy, unless you are a metally deranged wife abuser with a history of drug abuse: give a couple of documents at the local police station and pay the fee.

Ah. bottom opposed to what we do: present proof of age and residency at the shop where we buy said gun (if it's a commercial sale) and pay a small fee ( about $10 to $15) for the instant background check. But NO permits as such in most states.

 

[Janne]

You mean as opposed to her new gun?

Of course. In all fairness I am a very lucky guy as wife shoots too and likes guns. I am searching for a fun semi auto shotgun, to be used in 3-gun, and showed her the Vepr-12 and the Fostech Origin 12
She wants me to get the Fostech, despite the huge cost difference.
A keeper she is!

 

[Janne]

Ah. bottom opposed to what we do: present proof of age and residency at the shop where we buy said gun (if it's a commercial sale) and pay a small fee ( about $10 to $15) for the instant background check. But NO permits as such in most states.

The extensive ( compared to US) checks in Europe weeds out most of the idiots that cause those US style mass shootings.

Not all, as we can see in Breiviks ( illegal guns) and that Finnish teenagers ( legal guns I believe?) case.

But overall it works.

 

[Robson Valley]

Shotguns all go "bang." They make good, simple field guns to enjoy.
You want a 3"? Why not go for a Benelli Nova 3.5" or a Stoeger 3.5" (both pumps) as my partner has?
I gave her a Ruger Red Label 12 x 3" double that she really loves to shoot.
Sold off 10 of 12 shotguns, kept 2 Russians = o/u 12 and a sweet s/s 20.
The Ariettas, Benellis, Boitos, Berettas, Remingtons and others were a pleasure to hunt with.
Kreighoffs they ain't. No matter.

The fundamental concept here is just that we go out to shoot grouse, maybe we get skunked,
maybe I have a limit of 10 to clean. Who knows?

 

[santaman2000]

The extensive ( compared to US) checks in Europe weeds out most of the idiots that cause those US style mass shootings......

Two points on that:
1) Gun crime has been steadily going down since 1980 and is at the lowest it's been since record keeping began in 1960, whereas gun ownership has been steadily going up and is at an all time high http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/03/thanks-to-cops-gun-violence-lowest-since-1960s/
2) Criminals (including shooters and "mass shooters" tend to ignore legalities and get their guns elsewhere.

Well, a third point as well: I'm not buying that criminal shooters are necessarily "idiots." Most are just plain self centered criminals (gang members) Remember the vast majority of out shootings are gang on gang. That little tidbit just doesn't thrill the media enough to report though. Understand just what the term "gang" means here. Gangs here are actually multi million dollar organized crime organizations of a size on a par with the older Mafia but far more ferocious and less finessed/refined. That means they would actually welcome a "gun ban" as an excellent business opportunity for them: a simple machine shop (less than $10,000 investment, a space smaller than a 2 car garage, and all disposable if found) plus about $80 in raw materials and they can turn out approximately $250,000 worth of illegal guns in a couple of weeks. And THAT would be at a single, small location.

 

[Countryman]

Frankly, I think America has bigger problems that feed into its gun deaths. The American Dream is a dog eat dog culture of materialism and desire for fame.

You glorify the super rich and at the top and you have vast numbers who have nothing gazing up at their magnificence with empty bowls and without a significant welfare state to make it bearable.

Without a National Health Service to catch them, you have the mentally ill, who are a danger to themselves and others wandering the streets.

You have a heady mix of open access to firearms and people who would visit violence upon you for their own material gain, sometimes out of desperation or to gain notoriety in lieu of fame when they feel they have no other route.

However it's ok because if you ban assault rifles and high capacity magazines it will all be ok.

Cuckoo.

So easy to ban hardware rather than fix a broken society.



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[santaman2000]

Frankly, I think America has bigger problems that feed into its gun deaths. The American Dream is a dog eat dog culture of materialism and desire for fame.

You glorify the super rich and at the top and you have vast numbers who have nothing gazing up at their magnificence with empty bowls and without a significant welfare state to make it bearable.

Without a National Health Service to catch them, you have the mentally ill, who are a danger to themselves and others wandering the streets..........

Again; too much of a tendency to blame criminal acts on mental illness. Agreed that greed and/or ego plays a major role.

 

[santaman2000]

.....Without a National Health Service to catch them, you have the mentally ill, who are a danger to themselves and others wandering the streets....

Sounds like a prelude to the following conversation which would be an excellent excuse for gun control without the need for laws:

National Health Official (whose job depends entirely on the political faction in office at the time) "So you like shooting guns and hunting?"

Citizen, ""Why yes. I was raised in on a farm and my family were all ardent hunters."

National Health Official, "Obviously you were raised in a psychopathic environment and you're far too unstable to be trusted with a gun. In fact we need to institutionalize you for treatment."

 

[santaman2000]

.......However it's ok because if you ban assault rifles and high capacity magazines it will all be ok.......

Yeah, that seems to be the rhetoric from the politicians. True "assault rifles" (fully automatic) have been all but impossible to get for decades. There are only a handful out there and none have ever been used in a crime. Likewise they tend to call ordinary, standard magazines "high capacity."

 

[gonzo_the_great]

I have a few thousand primers that were sold off as water damaged stock. Only a couple in each box seem to have been affected and that looks to be a reaction with the packaging. They are easily identified and removed and have only had a fraction of a % failure rate in loaded ammunition (and I can't put that totally down to the primers, as I am playing with daft gallery loads). So I expect that percussion caps would dry out and work ok, if they got damp. (Not tried myself though.. Yet!)
But if you can keep powder dry, then you can keep caps dry too.

Also, depending on what you are looking to hunt, I would have thought that the weight of black powder and a heavy lead ball, is going to be a poor food vs weight ratio, compared with modern centre fire ammunition. Coupled with the reliability issues and the problems of damp/ spillage of carrying a flintlock loaded whilst stalking...
I would have thought that in pure survival terms something like a 223rem would be a better choice. (Pack a chamber insert for 22lr and you have the best of both worlds.)

 

[mrcharly]

weight of black powder and a heavy lead ball, is going to be a poor food

Lead balls are actually pretty light. A sphere has a small volume compared to a cylinder.

A .45" musket ball, for example, weighs about 138grains. That's a smallish musket ball.

Blackpowder is tiny in weight compared to anything else you are carrying. A pound of black powder is a lot of shots.

I still think that for long-term survival, a crossbow would be better.