TBH even us old farts don't really know. The ones I KNOW last are the ones built by my grandparents generation before I was born. Maybe my grankids will know if my fences last.
TBH even us old farts don't really know. The ones I KNOW last are the ones built by my grandparents generation before I was born. Maybe my grankids will know if my fences last.
robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
When I used to work in forestry I learnt a lot about how long things lasted and where they failed when taking down and replacing old stuff. One tanalised softwood and barbed wire fence I know at Hatfield Forest is still stockproof after 40 years but I have also seen tanalised softwood fail in 5 years. This is one I built from chestnut 24 years ago pictured in 2009. I have never seen a wooden fence built in my grandparents generation. 25 years is a very good lifespan for a wooden fence any more is a bonus.
The ones my grandparents buit were barbed wire. The fenceposts were wood. They're still standing. The wire is rusted, but the litard wood posts are still solid now (over 100 years later)
Mrcharly your right, 'cause I was taught the right way to do things. Though some of my works been up coming up for 20 years now. Wouldn't like to drive at it in a landy mind.
Must say Santaman you have an unfair advantage of climate, all that hot dry air - wood must last an age unless insects get to it.
Hot yes. DRY!? LOL. We're in a flood zone. In fact we're under a flood watch as I speak. And yes there are loads of insects (remember we also have termites) BUT!!! NOTHING! and I mean NOTHING!! will eat litard. And even before you harvest it, the stumps take hundreds of years to rot.
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Sounds a bit like Lignum vitae, they used to use it for piers and the likes here. Remember speaking to a timber supplier years ago who'd dropped of a few tons of the stuff at the waters edge for a pier and it all went missing over the weekend as word got round the hobbiests that the stuff was there. Makes lovely things though is a bit slippy for handles due to it's oil content. Does mean that any runners, moving parts in what you make are self oiling though.
Litard really isn't suitable for construction (or handles so we've strayed a bit from the OP) It's what y'all call "fatwood." It makes wonderful fenceposts because of it's durabilty but is too splintery for handles. And too splintery and flameable for most structural construction (although pine heartwood is similar and used to be used extensively) In fact creosoted pine poles were common for piers here before creosote was banned.
On your first point: I have never said that pecans are not hickories. Botanically North American hickories are grouped into the so called ’true or typical hickories’ and the ‘pecan hickories’:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hickory
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/amwood/241hicko.pdf
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/amwood/249pecan.pdf
Quote:
“The pecan hickory group – pecan [ Carya illinoensis (Wangenh.) K. Koch], water hickory [ Carya aquatica (Michx. f.) Nutt.], nutmeg hickory [ Carya myristicaeformis (Michx. f.) Nutt.], bitternut hickory[Carya cordiformis (Wangenh.) K. Koch] – is one oftwo groups into which the eight commercially important hickory species are classified. The pecan hickory group consists of pecan, water hickory,nutmeg hickory, and bitternut hickory.”
“The wood of the pecan hickories is rated as strong, stiff, very hard, heavy, and very high in shock resistance. It is rated below the wood of the true hickories, but somewhat above white oak, sugar maple, and white ash in strength and other mechanical properties, especially shock-resisting ability. The wood of the pecan hickories is dense, having an average specific gravity of 0.59, but is not as dense as the wood of the true hickories which have an average specific gravity of 0.64.”
“The distinction between pecan and true hickories is made in some timber inventories, but the current published timber volume reports do not categorize hickory by species groups.”
Some of your confusion is due to the fact the ‘pecan’ is used both as a common name for a specific species (Carya illinoensis), and also to denote the group of ‘pecan hickories’.
Sweet pecan (Carya illinoensis) is frequently grown in plantations for its sweet nuts, so it is relatively easy to identify lumber coming from these pure pecan stands.
True hickories on the other hand come from wild (even if managed) forests, where several species from both the true and pecan groups can overlap:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/amwood/249pecan.pdf
“Bitternut hickory is especially similar to the true hickories in habitat and distribution.”
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/amwood/241hicko.pdf
“The true hickories and the pecan hickories are similar in habitat, distribution, and wood characteristics. In timber inventories and timber volume reports, the distinction between true and pecan hickories is usually made. The four commercial species of true hickory represent the greater part of the volume of hickory in the United State.
The lumber production of hickory is hard to categorize by species groups. In the lumber industry, true and pecan hickories are mixed and sold under each other’s group name. In fact, once the wood is processed into lumber, it cannot be distinguished by species, based on physical appearance alone. A distinction can be made by observing the anatomical structure under low magnification, but this is not a common practice in the lumber industry. Recent lumber-production surveys have recognized this situation and have reported only the combined production of hickory and pecan.
Based on the volume of available growing stock, one is led to believe that most hickory lumber produced is from true-hickory species. At any rate, the lumber production of one group cannot be considered without considering the other.”
Regarding your comments about red and white hickory: I have been literally quoting a publication of the Forest Products Laboratory of the US Department of Agriculture.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/amwood/241hicko.pdf
The distinction there is clearly one used in the lumber trade, one of dark heartwood vs. light sapwood, and not one based on species.
There are many local/regional names for each hickory species, and many of those are used for several species, depending on the locale.
For example, ‘White hickory’ is a common name for Mockernut hickory (Carya tomentosa), which is member of the true hickories. It is also a regional common name for Bitternut hickory (Carya cordiformis), a member of the pecan hickories:
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/ornamentals/natives/caryacordiformis.htm
Similarly, ‘Red hickory’ can mean Red or Sweet Pignut(Carya ovalis), Pignut hickory (Carya glabra), or even Bitternut hickory (Carya cordiformis).
So, in fact Carya cordiformis can be called both ‘White hickory’ and ‘Red hickory’, depending on which old timer do you ask, and where.
Regarding your regional experience about how do your handles fare on the back on your truck: Florida does not have the extreme fluctuations in both temperature and humidity we do here in the Midwest. Bring those handles of yours to Missouri, and without any treatment they will be more likely than not cracked all over in just a year.
I respect your knowledge and skills you gained as a commercial logger, but you clearly missed or misinterpreted all the points you wrote about in response to my post.
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Lignum vitae used to be used for bearings on submarines and hydro plants because of its longevity and self lubricating ability.
There's a chap who goes on another forum I use that machined it to use in his hydro plant. Says it was the same as the old one in there anyway.
There's quite a few canal locks, piers and so on made from Greenheart also which I think is more common for that application.
.....Regarding your regional experience about how do your handles fare on the back on your truck: Florida does not have the extreme fluctuations in both temperature and humidity we do here in the Midwest. Bring those handles of yours to Missouri, and without any treatment they will be more likely than not cracked all over in just a year.
Since I've been in Florida my axe is in the utility room when not in use. When it was kept on the back of the truck was when I was in Mississippi, Nevada, Texas, and Colorado.
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Never said it was easy to tell the difference. Or that some people don't sell them improperly. What I said was while it's LEGAL to sell pecan as hickory, it's NOT legal to sell hickory as pecan. That doesn't mean it isn't done (in fact you're right, it's common) just that it's not legal.
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Santaman2000, pray, how does all this disprove or is even relevant to what I have posted in my two previous posts?
The facts are that
- there is indeed a distinction, both in botany and in the lumber trade, between the true hickories and the pecan hickories. Wikipedia is not confused, you are just being too modest to admit it;
- the wood from the pecan hickory group is indeed weaker than that of the true hickories. If the woods from the two groups are mixed, that will increase variation in strength properties;
- wood from the pecan hickory group is indeed mixed with true hickory wood, therefore the handles marketed as ‘hickory’ ones can come from both true and pecan hickory species. So all the legality stuff you keep bringing up is irrelevant, because all what you are talking about is that it is illegal to sell for example shagbark hickory marked as ‘pecan’, but that was never the topic, until you brought it up.
- in the context I quoted, red and white hickories are indeed different parts of the tree, and not different species. It could not have been also for the reason I mentioned in my response to you: ‘red’ and ‘white’ hickory are highly regional common names, they are even used for the same species in different regions of the country.
- there is indeed an advantage to treat and protect hickory (and other wood) handles, especially in regions with great fluctuations in humidity and temperature. Both old timer lumbermen and respected woodsmen recommended it. You may choose not to do it, and if you are lucky to live in a proper environment, it might not matter much. Had you been logging in the Midwest, where you can frequently experience 40-50 degree temperature and 50-70% humidity changes within a day, you might have found it that it can matter.
You keep repeating that you worked as a logger. Pardon my bluntness, but being an ex-logger and a current lumber salesman does not make you an expert in botany or even in woodworking. There is nothing insulting in that statement, since you don’t have to hold a PhD in botany or be a master carpenter to be an efficient logger or a successful lumber salesman. All are respectable ways to earn one’s bread, but they are not interchangeable.
You also don’t have to be an expert in anything to discuss a topic in an internet forum. It is enjoyable to be able to tell all what you’ve got to say, and apparently ‘boy, (you)’ve ‘got a lot to say’, but if you want more than just attention, it pays to listen to what the others are actually saying. Having checked the facts, you might be able to make your opinion count more and sell your story better. But selling a story is not the same as selling wood, even if the story comes with the wood.
The facts are that
- there is indeed a distinction, both in botany and in the lumber trade, between the true hickories and the pecan hickories. Wikipedia is not confused, you are just being too modest to admit it
;- the wood from the pecan hickory group is indeed weaker than that of the true hickories. If the woods from the two groups are mixed, that will increase variation in strength properties;
- wood from the pecan hickory group is indeed mixed with true hickory wood, therefore the handles marketed as ‘hickory’ ones can come from both true and pecan hickory species. So all the legality stuff you keep bringing up is irrelevant, because all what you are talking about is that it is illegal to sell for example shagbark hickory marked as ‘pecan’, but that was never the topic, until you brought it up.
- in the context I quoted, red and white hickories are indeed different parts of the tree, and not different species. It could not have been also for the reason I mentioned in my response to you: ‘red’ and ‘white’ hickory are highly regional common names, they are even used for the same species in different regions of the country.
- there is indeed an advantage to treat and protect hickory (and other wood) handles, especially in regions with great fluctuations in humidity and temperature. Both old timer lumbermen and respected woodsmen recommended it. You may choose not to do it, and if you are lucky to live in a proper environment, it might not matter much. Had you been logging in the Midwest, where you can frequently experience 40-50 degree temperature and 50-70% humidity changes within a day, you might have found it that it can matter.
You keep repeating that you worked as a logger. Pardon my bluntness, but being an ex-logger and a current lumber salesman does not make you an expert in botany or even in woodworking. There is nothing insulting in that statement, since you don’t have to hold a PhD in botany or be a master carpenter to be an efficient logger or a successful lumber salesman. All are respectable ways to earn one’s bread, but they are not interchangeable.
You also don’t have to be an expert in anything to discuss a topic in an internet forum. It is enjoyable to be able to tell all what you’ve got to say, and apparently ‘boy, (you)’ve ‘got a lot to say’, but if you want more than just attention, it pays to listen to what the others are actually saying. Having checked the facts, you might be able to make your opinion count more and sell your story better. But selling a story is not the same as selling wood, even if the story comes with the wood.
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Santaman2000, pray, how does all this disprove or is even relevant to what I have posted in my two previous posts?
The facts are that
- there is indeed a distinction, both in botany and in the lumber trade, between the true hickories and the pecan hickories. Wikipedia is not confused, you are just being too modest to admit it
- the wood from the pecan hickory group is indeed weaker than that of the true hickories. If the woods from the two groups are mixed, that will increase variation in strength properties;
- wood from the pecan hickory group is indeed mixed with true hickory wood, therefore the handles marketed as ‘hickory’ ones can come from both true and pecan hickory species. So all the legality stuff you keep bringing up is irrelevant, because all what you are talking about is that it is illegal to sell for example shagbark hickory marked as ‘pecan’, but that was never the topic, until you brought it up.....
That was one of my original topics many posts ago. The one your two previous posts seemed to dispute. If I mistook your intentions I apoligize.
I've been in the midwest. It wasn't particulary different from the rockies or the desert SW or the SE regarding temperature and humidity fluctuation. The difference was the extemes on either end of the spectrums; the midwest was extremely dry compared to the SE and extremely wet compared to the desert SW. Frankly it never got any colder than it does here in the Florida Panhandle (sub 0-f) but in the midwest it did stay in said cold range for a longer, more stable time (weeks vs days here) It never got anywhere near as hot as the desert SE (112f at midnight dropping 40 degrees overnight)
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My first post in this thread was from April 2008. You joined the Forum in 2011, and your first post in this thread is from January 2012.
I think the misunderstanding was regarding facts rather than intentions, so no apology is necessary.
Let me repeat, I do respect your work and the experience you gained, but I think it is irrelevant to our topic and your dispute of my previous post is incorrect.
I still think you are probably a fine bushcrafter/outdoorsman and I am ready to learn from you about bushcraft.
Best,
littleknife
My first post in this thread was from April 2008. You joined the Forum in 2011, and your first post in this thread is from January 2012.
I think the misunderstanding was regarding facts rather than intentions, so no apology is necessary.
Let me repeat, I do respect your work and the experience you gained, but I think it is irrelevant to our topic and your dispute of my previous post is incorrect.
I still think you are probably a fine bushcrafter/outdoorsman and I am ready to learn from you about bushcraft.
Best,
littleknife
Thanks for that. I wish it were true. I still have a great deal to learn myself. Particularly about teaching; my teaching method is all to often just doing something, then telling my grandson something like, "Go thou and do likewise."
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