Why are Duke of Ed people always lost?

[caorach]

It's started. The Duke of Ed people have appeared, as if by magic. They are like the Mr. Benn cartoon character in that they dress up in walking gear and rucksacks and, suddenly, they are out walking in the countryside.

Now, yesterdays lot were on a track, which is clearly marked on the map, in a forest. They'd come up the main road and into the forest. All they needed to do was walk about 400 yards, take a right turn on a forestry track, follow that track for about 2 miles and take another right turn and that was it. I found them in the middle of the forest nowhere near where they should have been. About 10 of them, in bad condition and in pretty awful weather conditions (it was 2 degrees with snow, sleet and hail falling constantly and varying from heavy to torrential and only 2 hours from dark). They were totally and utterly lost and had to flag me down. I thought they were going to cry when I told them they still had another hour to walk, if there hadn't been 10 of them I might even have given them a lift.

You can immediately ID a Duke of Ed group as 1) they look like a DoE group and 2) their first words are "Where are we?"

Now, if this were a one off then that's OK but from Easter until the end of the summer I will spend a part of every day out (I was in the car yesterday as "working" in the forestry) rescuing, directing, showing maps to, warning etc. DoE groups. I think it is great that they are out there and I hope at least some of them come to enjoy it and get a laugh from it. But the level of supervision is frightening. One area where I walk has a very dangerous bit of bog. Every year the DoE people are sent into it and, every year, the farmer has to rescue some of them with a quad bike. Another lot I found in thick fog wandering along the tops of a big cliff totally lost and, when I asked, they were not even sure where they'd started from in the morning. Last year a group flagged me down, still on the public road, and they were lost despite only being about a mile from where they'd started. And so the list goes on...

Now, I know that some DoE groups get excellent supervision from people who've actually been on the hill and ground themselves but in this particular area where I spend a lot of time the supervision seems to consist of a group of teachers driving around in cars glaring suspiciously at anyone else in the area. I can't imagine that the kids enjoy it much as they are constantly lost and seem to have very little idea what they are doing, or why they are there.

So, why are they always lost? Discuss...

 

[mrcharly]

My kids have done DoE. I've supervised on one expedition. Two of my kids were the ones asked to do the navigation as the others couldn't be bothered. According to them:

1) Most of the group just talk and don't look where they are going.

2) While talking they don't stop at any track, fence, gate etc to check which way to go (and ignore the navigator).

3) The navigator keeps falling behind because they are always stopping to look at the map. That leads to the rest of the group just walking with no idea where they are going.

 

[Rich D]

My sister in law "supervised" some last year as her son was doing it. She asked me how to get to Hathersage in the car from Nottingham and then to point out on the map she had where that was......probably not the best start, she got even more distressed when she realised the nearest mcdonalds was sheffield/chesterfield.
The young relatives of mine who did it (I only know this as the borrow some of my kit) all hated it, and it never encouraged any of them to get into the outdoors again, I think they do it as some sort of extracurricular thing to put down on their uni applications as playing on your xbox isn't acceptable, and the idea always seems to come from their parents.

 

[Goatboy]

"Not all those who wander are lost; unless they're on their bronze DoE!"

Sadly you're very right, too many aren't encouraged to learn to navigate properly before venturing out. Though it's not just kids, I had to do lots of navigation training when giving instruction to rambler groups years ago. Many groups would have one member, typically an ex service man who'd been taught to read a map in the war and was in danger of pegging it any day now. Their defence of "Well Jimmy can read a map" didn't sit well with me as if something happened to Jimmy then they would be up a blind creek without a compass.
I think the onus should be put on anyone venturing off the path to at least be able to have some rudimentary skills though you can't legislate for laziness or ignorance. Apart from my Dad and brother teaching me to navigate as a youngster both my primary school and Cub/Scout pack also taught everyone to do so. But there are a lot of life skills that are no longer taught as a matter of course.

 

[SCOMAN]

I've just volunteered to help out locally to give something back to the community. I have no experience of it personally apart from helping to equip a niece. Navigation lesson requirement noted. I think some issues may arise from the reason to do it, parents pushing it, university/CV benefits as opposed to learning and benefitting from the experience. I'll see a clearer picture if they are happy for me to assist.

 

[Tony]

this is often the case, but not always, I've known some great DofE groups that are on the ball and get the job done. Even though they mess it up often it's still a great experience for them and that getting lost experience is probably quite a valuable thing for a lot of them.

 

[Riven]

We had a group of D of Es walk through our camp in North Wales a couple of years ago. We were still in bed so it came as a surprise to hear talking outside the tent as they had decided to take a break right next to us. In all credit to them they actually were on the right path which just happened to go straight through our camp. Now I have come across them many times over the years and always found them polite and generally knackered and my view is that it at least gives youngsters a taste of the outdoors as in some cases they do not get the opportunity any other way. Goodluck to them is what I say. Oh and why arent they using GPS to cheat.
Riven

 

[rik_uk3]

Lost in bad weather, they must be dying by the dozen which begs the question, where do 'they' hide the bodies

 

[caorach]

The young relatives of mine who did it (I only know this as the borrow some of my kit) all hated it, and it never encouraged any of them to get into the outdoors again,

That is, sort of, part of my concern as I just can't see how this encourages many of the groups ever to venture outside their bedroom ever again. The folks I met yesterday, and the ones I generally meet, always appear a bit miserable and because they are wandering about without a clue it can't be fun at all. If they had clear objectives and good leadership then maybe it could be enjoyable and they would have "something to aim for." Even something like a "treasure hunt" with a bit of competition might brighten it up for them.

Maybe the main lesson from DoE in this country is that most people who set themselves up as authority figures in order to tell and teach you what to do are completely unsuited to the job

By the way I know some very good DoE leaders, but in this particular area I'm considering here they seem to be a disaster.

One other thing that occurs to me is that maybe if the kids were just sent out with a tent to enjoy themselves the whole scheme might work better. Sure, they'd probably not go in bad weather and they'd do all the things their parents always warned them never to do but they'd probably enjoy it and learn a lot more in the process. Trudging about lost in horizontal sleet only teaches them to stay at home next time.

 

[Corso]

It used to be on the Uni aplication good things to do list like 'volenteering' utterly pointless if you don't learn anything from it....

 

[DurhamBushcrafter]

The saying...'ALL THE GEAR... AND NO IDEA' springs to mind. They need edumakating!.............I coined the phrase 'Education beats Cremation every time!'

 

[mrcharly]

For the people busy here slagging off DoE leaders, I suggest you get out and do some teaching to young people. Scout groups, DoE are always looking for people with skills to offer.

If you aren't prepared to do that (and face the challenge of engaging a group of young people), I politely request you pipe down.

 

[Joonsy]

I found them in the middle of the forest nowhere near where they should have been. About 10 of them, in bad condition and in pretty awful weather conditions (it was 2 degrees with snow, sleet and hail falling constantly and varying from heavy to torrential and only 2 hours from dark). They were totally and utterly lost and had to flag me down. I thought they were going to cry when I told them they still had another hour to walk, if there hadn't been 10 of them I might even have given them a lift.

In those conditions personally I’d have offered them a lift, easy enough to do repeat journeys if there were too many to fit in car in one go. If they still had a one hour walk (about 3 miles at an average pace and far enough to get lost again) in awful weather and with only two hours of light left that means they only had a one hour period to spare if things went wrong again, for inexperienced people which they obviously were that is a bit tight. Regardless of the wrongs or rights of the situation they found themselves in personally I would sooner offer them a lift and know they were safe than leave them to the risk of finding themselves lost in the dark in very bad weather conditions. Imagine how you would have felt the next day if you had woken to the news that so-and-so had died of hyperthermia through being lost in the dark in awful weather and you could have prevented it by just giving a simple lift, better to know they are safe, any silly mistakes they made can be pointed out to them afterwards but you can only learn from mistakes if you are still alive. I know people do silly things on such activities and can understand any frustration at such but i would still sooner help a peson in distress than leave them to suffer (and their familes at home too).

 

[Ogri the trog]

As an expedition assessor and navigation tutor, I can say that sometimes the groups will pay attention and learn properly, others need to get lost in order to find out just how much they need to pay attention.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[caorach]

In those conditions personally I’d have offered them a lift,

There were about 10 of them, they have an emergency mobile phone, there was phone reception in most of the area plus I was coming back over the ground later in the evening so if they had a disaster I'd see them again. I also knew where they were going to be camping for the night and when I came out after dark could see all their little lights in the field. The field isn't remote, has road access and is, basically, attached to a farm so there was adult (well, teachers anyhow) supervision once they got there, which is probably the root of their problem in the first place. Lots of layers of protection in place so no need for me to panic until there was something to panic about.

 

[DurhamBushcrafter]

I suggest you get out and do some teaching to young people. I politely request you pipe down.

A friend DID have a group teaching young people Bushcraft..... he had all his police checks n everything, he is a great bloke and a dad too..but because of snide gossip in his village that he was QUOTE ''Taking young boys up the woods'' He decided that that was enough. he had personal liability insurance, First aid, the lot...and he got slated and called for it in his village....so, Mr Charly, it is NOT always because we dont want to, but because of the general public that folks DO NOT volunteer. Thanks. Rant over.

 

[caorach]

As an expedition assessor and navigation tutor, I can say that sometimes the groups will pay attention and learn properly, others need to get lost in order to find out just how much they need to pay attention.

I appreciate that this is also a problem - you can lead a horse to water...

I know someone who leads DoE groups on some really, really tough ground and they probably do the most remote expeditions of any group in the UK ending up maybe 15 miles from the nearest road or house with no tracks, no mobile phones, and no man made features to follow. The ground is really rough, the nav difficult, and escape routes are limited and, often, involve a boat. They are really well lead and not only do they do well but they also have fun. The supervisors follow behind them, sleeping in tents etc. along with them and walking the same route.

The ones I saw yesterday had, in comparison, a simple task that basically involved following man made features on easy ground and tracks. Almost every group I meet here over the next few months will be in the same situation and, almost without exception, they will be lost. I've seen them unable to cross a river when there was a bridge, I've seen them rescued by helicopter in good weather and full view of the road, I've seen them pulled out of dangerous bog because their supervisors don't know its there despite sending them into it every year... Their supervisors drive around in minibuses with binoculars, though I'm sure they've been on a course, and I suspect the kids would do better without them. It is really disappointing that the kids seem to learning nothing and there seems to be no enjoyment in the whole process.

 

[Goatboy]

For the people busy here slagging off DoE leaders, I suggest you get out and do some teaching to young people. Scout groups, DoE are always looking for people with skills to offer.

If you aren't prepared to do that (and face the challenge of engaging a group of young people), I politely request you pipe down.

I wasn't having a go at DoE leaders per say. I was worried about the lack of navigation skills in the outdoor community as a whole. Spent about 20 years giving free navigation classes and was still amazed at how many folk didn't feel they had to learn. The general opinion was that the onus was on someone else to do it and they would follow like sheep.
When GPS units became more available some turned to those as to what they saw as an easy option. Only to get really lost as they couldn't relate a grid reference to a map. So at the beginning folk got more comprehensively lost as they felt emboldened to wander off into the wilds as they had a GPS.
I think DoE and Scout/BB leaders do a wonderful job, but some don't get a chance to learn the skill set to pass on to others.

 

[mrcharly]

Some people here were having a pop at the leaders and organisers. I was asking those to put up or shut up.

Most of you recognise the difficulty of teaching a group and like og said, some need to get lost in order to learn that they need to pay attention.

 

[Rich D]

For the people busy here slagging off DoE leaders, I suggest you get out and do some teaching to young people. Scout groups, DoE are always looking for people with skills to offer.

If you aren't prepared to do that (and face the challenge of engaging a group of young people), I politely request you pipe down.

i didn't mean to come across like that, was just stating the fact that all the (albeit limited number of) people who I know who've done it hated it. Plus the one volunteer I know is by her own admission clueless and did it to help out with her son. Got a lot of of venture scouts and climbing from volunteers. Doesn't mean I'd be the right person to do it myself though.