Why are Duke of Ed people always lost?
- Thread starter caorach
- Start date
I live two mile or so from a busy outwards bounds centre. On the whole, it's never caused any sort of a problem, apart from when the leaders got me to price the grounds maintenance, sending me to pick up the key from the grounds keeper, and tell him why I needed it.......
I suppose the terrified kids wandering around the forestry in the dark are only developing character, I'm sure they have fond memories of it when they look back. One of them screamed and dived back into the wood when mother offered him a lift.
Back in that really bad winter we had about 5 years ago. the roads were impassable. A group of what I believe were scouts, decided to go for a walk. They left it till mid day to leave, then took for the high ground. It started sleeting, heavily. It hadn't risen above freezing for a week.
I needed gas. I've lived here all my life, I know what I am doing. I take off down the road in the truck, get gas, and have to abandon my truck at a neighbouring farm. Father comes to pick me up in a 4WD.
Along the way, we meet a group from the centre. They are soaked to the skin, in their super cheap out door clothing. Two leaders, and 8 kids, below 18, I would have thought.
They have at least an hour to walk, in good conditions, to get back to the centre.
It's getting dark. Soon, it will be minus 6, and it's starting to snow, heavily. They are walking in the wrong direction.
We stop, and offer them a lift. Either the leader had an exceptionally high voice, right at that moment, or panic was setting in. He was loosing it.
So OK, they were resourceful, they found a road, as luck would have it, being as there was six inches of snow on it, there was a vehicle, that could get where they wanted to go.
I'm sure it was a character building experience, and I should hope the leaders learned a lot.
However, by anyones standards, going for a little walk, across the high ground, dressed in the clothes they had, was deeply irresponsible, let alone taking a bunch of kids with them.
I know they do a lot of good, and a lot of people take time to work with these kids. All they had to do was ask some advice from a neighbouring farmer, He'd soon have told them not to go walking.
One twist ankle, and they would have been on the news.
There was absolutely no need or justification for the decision they made. They put those kids in danger. They are not being trained as combat soldiers.
I could recount a whole list of less serious mishaps too, but it would get tedious.
I suppose the terrified kids wandering around the forestry in the dark are only developing character, I'm sure they have fond memories of it when they look back. One of them screamed and dived back into the wood when mother offered him a lift.
Back in that really bad winter we had about 5 years ago. the roads were impassable. A group of what I believe were scouts, decided to go for a walk. They left it till mid day to leave, then took for the high ground. It started sleeting, heavily. It hadn't risen above freezing for a week.
I needed gas. I've lived here all my life, I know what I am doing. I take off down the road in the truck, get gas, and have to abandon my truck at a neighbouring farm. Father comes to pick me up in a 4WD.
Along the way, we meet a group from the centre. They are soaked to the skin, in their super cheap out door clothing. Two leaders, and 8 kids, below 18, I would have thought.
They have at least an hour to walk, in good conditions, to get back to the centre.
It's getting dark. Soon, it will be minus 6, and it's starting to snow, heavily. They are walking in the wrong direction.
We stop, and offer them a lift. Either the leader had an exceptionally high voice, right at that moment, or panic was setting in. He was loosing it.
So OK, they were resourceful, they found a road, as luck would have it, being as there was six inches of snow on it, there was a vehicle, that could get where they wanted to go.
I'm sure it was a character building experience, and I should hope the leaders learned a lot.
However, by anyones standards, going for a little walk, across the high ground, dressed in the clothes they had, was deeply irresponsible, let alone taking a bunch of kids with them.
I know they do a lot of good, and a lot of people take time to work with these kids. All they had to do was ask some advice from a neighbouring farmer, He'd soon have told them not to go walking.
One twist ankle, and they would have been on the news.
There was absolutely no need or justification for the decision they made. They put those kids in danger. They are not being trained as combat soldiers.
I could recount a whole list of less serious mishaps too, but it would get tedious.
Feralpig.
I think we must live quite close (SY18) as I completely understand your post.
I think that many local groups do understand what the conditions can be like, but there is an element for those further afield that think - "It's only a two hour drive from Birmingham, how bad can it get?" who turn up, set off and then way too late discover that they are poorly equipped, insufficiently experienced and out of their depth.
ATB
Ogri the trog
I think we must live quite close (SY18) as I completely understand your post.
I think that many local groups do understand what the conditions can be like, but there is an element for those further afield that think - "It's only a two hour drive from Birmingham, how bad can it get?" who turn up, set off and then way too late discover that they are poorly equipped, insufficiently experienced and out of their depth.
ATB
Ogri the trog
because they DON'T read the above...
http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/send...T8Rhy9D0sW66hoCg5j4w/sCNsJsmxrqklBDk892eloc4Q
covers ALL of Scotland despite the title - also check out: http://www.geograph.org.uk/
which provides direct links to Ordnance Survey mapping, and pix taken from routes = vegetation & landform assessments...
http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/send...T8Rhy9D0sW66hoCg5j4w/sCNsJsmxrqklBDk892eloc4Q
covers ALL of Scotland despite the title - also check out: http://www.geograph.org.uk/
which provides direct links to Ordnance Survey mapping, and pix taken from routes = vegetation & landform assessments...
I'm down the road from you, the other side Builth.
I think you are probably right. Some of them just don't appreciate what real cold and wet really is, and how quickly it can change.
It's all very well reading about it in a book, but till you've got soaked to the skin, and it's gone dark, it doesn't mean much.
They could do that in the back garden of the centre though, where they can get back inside when they start slurring their speech.
I still think the leaders ought to be a little bit more switched on though.
I've nothing against what they do, just the way they do it.
30 years ago, Grandparents used to have bus loads of inner city children visit the farm. I've no doubt it was a life changing experience for many. They would never have seen anything quite like it, nor even known about it.
I think you are probably right. Some of them just don't appreciate what real cold and wet really is, and how quickly it can change.
It's all very well reading about it in a book, but till you've got soaked to the skin, and it's gone dark, it doesn't mean much.
They could do that in the back garden of the centre though, where they can get back inside when they start slurring their speech.
I still think the leaders ought to be a little bit more switched on though.
I've nothing against what they do, just the way they do it.
30 years ago, Grandparents used to have bus loads of inner city children visit the farm. I've no doubt it was a life changing experience for many. They would never have seen anything quite like it, nor even known about it.
Personally i blame the schools, You look at groups doing DOE through schools then look at those doing it through Scouts (and Cadets to a point but varies on the type of leadership they have) (not counting Schools that just send them to Scouts). The schools WANT the kids to do it, The kids in Scouts WANT to do it, 2 totally different approaches.
The DOE trainers/leaders (bar some) aren't the issue, it's the calibre of kid and the forces driving/making them do DOE.
The DOE trainers/leaders (bar some) aren't the issue, it's the calibre of kid and the forces driving/making them do DOE.
I have done both Bronze and Silver D of E Awards many years ago when I was a young lad in the Air Training Corps (350 Squadron), and on both occasions We didn't get lost there was 12 people in the group and we was walking in the Brecon Beacons in Wales, we all took turns in Navigation in Two's for an hour each pair, when we were in a tight spot and not quite sure where we were we would all get together and check and cross-check our route, also what made it fun was we 'Wild Camped' which was brilliant! also I think why we didn't get lost is that in the Air Training Corps (ATC) we always done a lot of map reading and compass work, but for sure there was other groups who were getting lost because they were always talking and messing around and not taking any notice to what they were supposed to be doing and not taking it serious enough, in fact that particular group ended up walking in a complete circle and not getting anywhere!
maybe some are lost before they get there, or are only being sent there for parental reasons. The scout leader I used to have said half of parents used the organisation as a babysitting service, it was why he quit in the end, my parents on the other hand used to help out, go on walks / trips even if myself or my brother where not present. Then again my mom and dad had been walking since the mid 60s, and my great grandmother used to go away with my grandad and nan in there scout troop. A lot of people have nothing like that sort of lifestyle.
Perhaps a lot of the DofE re being asked to do too much as they have no real capabilities. It brings me back to, if they had a base camp they would always feel like they had somewhere familiar and established to run back to, which at the end of the day a lot of adults to set out to run back to somewhere, my only question is why are the kids asked different. A lot is being asked of them when it doesn't seem like there sphere of interest on any real basis.
I went through all DofEs at school which had a dedicated outdoor pursuits department. We did a lot of day walks which built up walking stamina and also improved navigation skills. I think that's the important bit here: frequent training using maps and compasses to get used to using them. I think that is quite often the difference between a Scout/Cadet group and a school group - the Scouts/Cadets get many chances to use their navigation and might have done short expeditions before so they know what's what whereas the school kids generally don't.
Saying that, I do find the entirely self sufficient nature of DofE a bit odd... if you're walking through a village what's the problem in picking up some milk or an icecream? It's very insular, nothing wrong with being self sufficient but what's wrong with using an urban resource when it's available?!
Saying that, I do find the entirely self sufficient nature of DofE a bit odd... if you're walking through a village what's the problem in picking up some milk or an icecream? It's very insular, nothing wrong with being self sufficient but what's wrong with using an urban resource when it's available?!
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
There is the element that parents want their kids to d of e because it looks good on the cv to ucas. I have come across groups poorly trained with navigation and badly equipped. I am glad my son is in cadets because they get the right instructors leading those types of trips. Every scout leader I have met through this site I would trust to train and prove a good kit list. I have however come across some dreadful leaders and teachers doing outdoor activities. My daughter had a scout leader that was over 30 stone, and he felt his was fine taking 12 year olds across cannock in January without providing a kit list.
I am getting to the conclusion that is want your child to be encouraged to go explore the outdoors go with them. They wi get their independence when they are ready. A tick box scheme might not be the best way forward.
I am getting to the conclusion that is want your child to be encouraged to go explore the outdoors go with them. They wi get their independence when they are ready. A tick box scheme might not be the best way forward.
I had no interest in dofe, but joined to help out a guy in halls at uni because he couldn't join the air force club or some such with out it being on his CV.
I failed my silver (by this point I'd attached myself to a young lady) because I got into an argument about my breakfast. I had planned eggs on bread. This was a no-no. Why? Because the eggs weighed more than powdered eggs. I pointed out we were wild camping and had to carry all our own water, so her point was moot.
The egg hater ended up being promoted to head of Norfolk district I think, must have been her amazing logic.
BTW I'm yet to break an egg on a hike or squash my bread to a point I wouldn't eat it.
I'm yet to experience the delight of powdered egg though.
I failed my silver (by this point I'd attached myself to a young lady) because I got into an argument about my breakfast. I had planned eggs on bread. This was a no-no. Why? Because the eggs weighed more than powdered eggs. I pointed out we were wild camping and had to carry all our own water, so her point was moot.
The egg hater ended up being promoted to head of Norfolk district I think, must have been her amazing logic.
BTW I'm yet to break an egg on a hike or squash my bread to a point I wouldn't eat it.
I'm yet to experience the delight of powdered egg though.
That alone should get you enough merit points to get the award
I must confess that I've recently converted to powdered milk for my tea, but you can hardly taste the difference with the tea I make and liquid milk doesn't last long in a hot rucksack on a hot day, plus there's no way I'm going without my tea
I guess that is a lot of negative merit points for me right there!
OK I'll open myself up for flaming here, I'm a teacher and DofE leader and I've literally put hundreds of youths through Bronze and Silver in both the New Forest and Brecon over the years. The problems I saw when training initially was that all of the work on nav was done in the classroom and then the students were expected to translate this to the real world when outside. When I took over as coordinator we scrapped the classroom sessions for everything apart from final route planning and checking of the physical, skills, service sections We instead did 4 weekends minimum camping with all of the skills being taught in the field. The only students who struggled were those who were there for a jolly, we still had a few getting lost but then I've seen trained adults get lost when they get too engrossed in conversations and forget to look at the map, or in the New Forest a section gets felled, a few horses create 3 more tracks and then they haven't got a clue unless they've properly grasped map to ground, contours etc.
The biggest issues I've had from a leaders point of view is training students who are in the scouts, from personal experience (and I know this may not be the norm), most of the scouts think they can navigate so don't listen and then get properly lost because they weren't as good as they thought they were. When it came to campcraft we had a group of scouts who were getting seriously stroppy because they hadn't listened to the instructions because they've put up tents before, then couldn't put the tent up so obviously the tent was at fault. My wife and I had to demonstrate how it was possible to get the tent up and a brew on in under 5 minutes if you knew what you were doing. They listened at that point and actually became a really good group.
The biggest issues I've had from a leaders point of view is training students who are in the scouts, from personal experience (and I know this may not be the norm), most of the scouts think they can navigate so don't listen and then get properly lost because they weren't as good as they thought they were. When it came to campcraft we had a group of scouts who were getting seriously stroppy because they hadn't listened to the instructions because they've put up tents before, then couldn't put the tent up so obviously the tent was at fault. My wife and I had to demonstrate how it was possible to get the tent up and a brew on in under 5 minutes if you knew what you were doing. They listened at that point and actually became a really good group.
Powdered egg isn't too bad actually, I've used it in the field to make giant omelettes and fillings for quiche as well as for baking with. In the Falklands about 30% of the eggs used to be rotten (they came south on a container ship) so the powdered stuff was sometimes the better option. It's obviously not as good as the real thing but I would have no qualms about eating it if I couldn't get fresh eggs or had to pack my rations like on D of E.
I did my DofE Gold many years ago and our leaders were pretty good. Sadly my experience of Scoutmasters is poor, at least as far as navigation is concerned. I go letterboxing on Dartmoor and it's reached the point where I don't even bother with boxes or walks put out by Scouts because more often that not their map references are badly inaccurate as are their compass directions.
Everyone has different experiences in both groups as some leaders / teachers work better with different kids. As a scout leader I got a lot of drop outs from other groups and they shined with me. I've had kids drop out and shine with other groups. Everyone has different needs.
My frustration with DofE was that I wasn't a kid, I was 19, had been hiking and taking kids on hikes for many years. I actually just sat back on the DofE because there was no point showing off and I let the other bossy boots do their thing.
I ended up taking over the group as they got completely lost, pulled them together after one got injured and lead them back to camp.
I failed due to non specific reasons whilst the rest passed (including the girl I carried for two miles...) It just makes me laugh how upset this leader had got over whole eggs being carried and couldn't conceive there was another way of doing things she'd not been taught.
I do wish I'd had a video camera about how bitchy three girls can get when they're tired, lost and completely demotivated!
I hear what you're saying, I've had massive arguments with leaders and assessors who have got annoyed because a group wasn't doing a particular task in the same way they would have done because they couldn't believe that a group of youths could actually have an original idea.
Food is always hilarious, the main thing I usual ban is pot noodles but I've seen all sorts from one group trying to bring tray of 32 packs of maryland cookies as their rations to another bringing 2kg of frozen waffles. The best I've seen was a group who made pancakes from fresh ingredients and then served with strawberries and melted chocolate, how they cooked it without burning on on a trangia I've no idea.
Group dynamics are always interesting when calorie deficient and tired. We had one girl completely throw her dolly out of the pram because her pink Doc Martin came off in thick mud she stepped forward got her pink socks and trousers muddy then bent over to pull her show out and her pink and sparkly mobile phone ended up in the mud. Half the group fell about laughing (I was struggling) the others spend the next 30 minutes bitching and whining because of how unfair it was that they had to walk in the first place.
Don't get me wrong I do have issues with DofE but it's mainly down to accreditation and the eDofE logbook system.
hello everyone
i am a scout from Solihull so the middle of England and i did a challenge called six summits. it basically a 36 mile hike over 3 days over well six summits and 2015 is the second year i have done it but pulled out last year on the last day with one summit left because i did full pack so we had to carry everything between our team of four and because that was the first time i had done it i over packed ,well i packed as much as i needed not wanted then i had to put the tent on and the trangia and the fuel etc and my knees just couldn't do it (i think I've already got minor long term damage to my knees because my team didn't support me they just pushed me up the hill) . anyway the second time i did it i had a better team (we were all friends not one person to rule them all) and we did it halve kit so basically only water lunch map and survival bag. but i barely looked at the map despite the route being changed because i remembered it from last time so would you say I've got a photographic memory of walks because im terrible at remembering things in school and around the house
so yeah. this was my story
thanks Dan
P.S. six summits happens once a year and open to all scouts explorers and leaders who want to take part or help
i am a scout from Solihull so the middle of England and i did a challenge called six summits. it basically a 36 mile hike over 3 days over well six summits and 2015 is the second year i have done it but pulled out last year on the last day with one summit left because i did full pack so we had to carry everything between our team of four and because that was the first time i had done it i over packed ,well i packed as much as i needed not wanted then i had to put the tent on and the trangia and the fuel etc and my knees just couldn't do it (i think I've already got minor long term damage to my knees because my team didn't support me they just pushed me up the hill) . anyway the second time i did it i had a better team (we were all friends not one person to rule them all) and we did it halve kit so basically only water lunch map and survival bag. but i barely looked at the map despite the route being changed because i remembered it from last time so would you say I've got a photographic memory of walks because im terrible at remembering things in school and around the house
so yeah. this was my story
thanks Dan
P.S. six summits happens once a year and open to all scouts explorers and leaders who want to take part or help
Well done for having a go.
DoE and scouting groups haven't embraced the lightweight philosophy yet.
DoE and scouting groups haven't embraced the lightweight philosophy yet.
