Where have all the men gone

[Jedadiah]

Tell me you did not really mean to word that the way you did....or are you reading Thomas Paine

Toddy

The 'Hymen' thing? Inspired by an old Rob Newman sketch. I seem to work better with metaphores!

 

[Tadpole]

Tell me you did not really mean to word that the way you did....or are you reading Thomas Paine

Toddy

Of Hymen
"You have not a grace but what is borrowed from me. As well may the moon attempt to enlighten the earth without the sun, as you to bestow happiness when I am absent"

 

[John Fenna]

Hymen - God of Weddings in classical mythology!

 

[rozinante]

Not sure why you choose to quote my post and even less sure of the logic (?) of your dissagreement with it.

Authoritarian eugenics might not be a good idea but neither is what is currently happening.

I don't see that because "what is currently happening" is unsatisfactory is any excuse to promote state abuse of it's citizens.

I work on one of the worst council housing estates in the north east of England - ranked 34th in the UK for indices of deprivation. Most people are trying but a sizeable proportion are not - they don't want a job, they don't want the hassle that comes with looking after their children and if the countless millions that have been pumped into this estate over the last 20 years in anything to go by they aren't going to change their ways either. So what do you do? Turn off the money tap and let them starve?

I am well aware or the depths of deprivation being suffered by many in this country and I don't need any further lessons on the subject.

As many have said above I'm afraid I'm too busy looking after my own family, paying the mortgage and keeping sane to worry about other people's kids. Let them eat cake.

Your decision on your own priorities is entirely up to you and I didn't, and wouldn't criticise it.

As for the totaly irrelevant and inapropriate use of the Marie Antoinette quote, I note if featured in a bnp article a few dayas ago. Obviously I don't know if that was your "inspiration" or just a coincidence, but either way and for the record, I don't waste time arguing with fascists.

 

[leon-1]

Having spent a certain amount of time getting this thread back on track I don't expect people to then ignore the effort. This is a warning for anyone who decides to take this thread off track again and make it personal, you will be carded.

 

[firecrest]

I can see what you are saying and I can quite simply put my hand up and say I'm doing nowt! Why is another matter. There are a few reasons. Or excuses. Whichever

First is that most of my time goes to caring for my family. With me there are 3 of us that have Aspergers or other autistic spectrum disorders.
Secondly I have tried coaching people in a former job and found that I just do not have the temperament for it - and especially the patience!
Third - I just don't like most people! I am quite antisocial and find being around too many people I don't know well very stressful - that is part of being an Aspie. It's something that can seem very strange to a neuro-typical but is quite common to us. If it wasn't for my very gregarious daughter who is the only one of us who likes being the centre of attention I'd happily live in the middle of nowhere with only the animals for company!

Tut tut! Aspergers doesnt stop you from doing anything! Both myself and my partner have AS. I used to also find the idea of working with people highly stressful and scary, for years Ive been usless. Now I work with other adults with autism from low functioning to high, and Ive worked with a number of various disabilities in the past. I can appreciate you might not like the idea, but you can only grow in these areas if you step out of your comfort area and plunge into it. I didnt like people at all, but now I enjoy their company and most people are unaware I have an autistic spectrum disorder. As people with disabilities ourselves, you have a lot to offer in a mentoring service, especially as more and more young men who are going off the rails are discovered to actually have ASD or LD, I found I had a quick and natural empathy for people with ASD, I understand their behaviour much better than many other support workers, and thus I discovered a skill which helped my self esteem.
My partner was one of the first in the UK diagnosed with aspergers in 1989. By which time he had already been expelled from nursery with most schools refusing to take him. He was labelled a problem children, it was only with quality one to one therapy and faith in his ability to grow into a functioning adult that he was able to overcome his problems and go on to university to study learning disability nursing. A year into his course a doctor caught wind of his diagnosis, labelled "asburgers" as a "psychotic mental illness" and promtly struck him from the course labelling him permanently unfit to nurse. Ever. He got a solicitor argued and won the case on grounds of outright descrimination, and was readmitted to another university 2 years later, upon which he has graduated top of the year, scoring the highest ever of 99% on his disertation, won a nursing award and is now working with challenging adults. I might sound like Im rambling abit but my point is my partner could now be in sheltered accomodation somewhere because nobody believed in him and the education system attempted to shunt him into a special school. He now uses his experience to work with highly challenging adults and is in the process of suing his former university, a case which if it comes to court and he wins, will create a bylaw making it illegal for uni's to ever refuse admittance to your children (and presumably mine if I have them) ever again on the grounds of having autism. So you see, just helping one person can make all the difference

 

[Rebel]

This has been quite a thread! It shows that we do have strong opinions on the subject and care about it.

I hesitate to chuck in my tuppence worth of opinion as most of it has been covered. I find myself agreeing on many points with both sides of the fence (except the more extreme opinions ).

It is tough to work with youth these days, why do you think it's so difficult to get male mentors, secondary school teachers, scout leaders, etc? The system sure doesn't make it easy for us. I'll admit to being a bit of a coward because I've been around youth services and I try to help but keep my distance because of the way they work. I won't get into the details of the political correctness, etc as much of it has been covered already.

I think that the system is letting down our youth by making us men shy away from helping them. I think for many of us it comes natural to want to help the rising generation to find their way in life but so much of modern society seem to be trying to force a wedge between us fathers and them. Unlike most other successful societies and tribes throughout history. I don't have any easy answers but I try to do what I can when I can.

 

[Barn Owl]

First off I hate paperwork and beaurocracy.

I hate my details being on file,I hate the thought of filling out the same form for criminal checks for every post that requires it.

I hate risk assesments for every thing you may do.

I do volunteer for several charities and sit on one committee.

I'd love to work with youngsters and show them some of the things I do and see in the countryside.

I'd like to know that my kids were supervised by competent adults if out.

BUT I will not pander to beaurocracy, health and safety and all that manure just to keep my hin'end covered.

I've had enough of all that and indeed a local group of folks who took out youngsters a few years ago gave up as the new regs' were too much.

I really think I'll resign my committee post soon and my volunteer aspects.

I want to enjoy being out and if that means by myself or with like minded friends without passing on what little we know,then so be it.

Good on all of you who can put up with the regs'.

Tom.

 

[Bernie Garland]

First off I hate paperwork and beaurocracy.

I hate my details being on file,I hate the thought of filling out the same form for criminal checks for every post that requires it.

I hate risk assesments for every thing you may do.

I do volunteer for several charities and sit on one committee.

I'd love to work with youngsters and show them some of the things I do and see in the countryside.

I'd like to know that my kids were supervised by competent adults if out.

BUT I will not pander to beaurocracy, health and safety and all that manure just to keep my hin'end covered.

I've had enough of all that and indeed a local group of folks who took out youngsters a few years ago gave up as the new regs' were too much.

I really think I'll resign my committee post soon and my volunteer aspects.

I want to enjoy being out and if that means by myself or with like minded friends without passing on what little we know,then so be it.

Good on all of you who can put up with the regs'.

Tom.

Very well said Tom a man after my own heart

Bernie

 

[Toddy]

So far I'm on my sixth Disclosure Scotland document this Summer. I've also filled in (just checked !) 24 different Risk Assessments.
You just do it, it doesn't take long, it does get boring, it does seem more than a touch excessive, but it simply assures people that I am who I say I am, that I am not a known paedophile or gbh'r. It's all pretty straightforward.

If I can do it, anyone can.

If mentoring isn't for you (that's any one of you ) fair enough, the aim of the thread though was to maybe make some of the abundant adult males on the site have a think about helping.

My plea would be not to let the paperwork put you off, if the group wants your help they'll help you with the bureaucracy and the good that mentoring does is not only personally satisfying but a very great kindness to us all.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[BorderReiver]

A timely and apt reminder.

Unfortunately though it did prove to be very popular and not only with the obvious and most inhuman regimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization

As a newcomer I don't want to fall out already but I can't believe people are seriously suggesting that we allow the state to decide whose genes are worthy of being permitted to reproduce. I share many of the frustrations and concerns about our degenerating society but surely such brutal inhumanity is not the way forward

I agree with you.

However, I would like to see an end to HMG actively encouraging the chavs in our society to have children. They are given housing and benefits with no apparent controls on how the money is spent.

The government's aim of lifting all children out of poverty is laudable but they have totally screwed up on delivery. Our children are being let down by their parents; socialisation and education start in the home; if the parents are out on the binge with their unearned money and are under no obligation to look after the kids a few male mentors are not going to do a lot of good.

The parents of the feral youth take all they can from us and give nothing but abuse back. You can't blame the kids for the way they are turning out but until the politicians wake up and do something practical about the sponging chav culture things will only get worse.

 

[Barn Owl]

Very well said Tom a man after my own heart

Bernie

Thanks Brother

Tom.

 

[ScottC]

If you were to actually sit and talk to young offenders you would soon discover that an overwhelming majority of them have had very difficult childhoods; physically and/or sexually abused, smack/heroin addicted parents who are completely apathetic towards their children, growing up playing with discarded needles and being spat on by the constant stream of men who go to visit their mothers. These are common themes that any one who works with something like a Young Offending Team could vouch for, not to mention the lack of employment prospects and poor education in inner city areas that inevitably leads to a life of crime for many youngsters. Is it really any wonder then that these angry youngsters turn to crime and violence? I've personally witnessed how convicted offenders have completely turned their life around with the intervention of Youth Offending Teams who are trained to recognise the best approach in how to deal with individuals on a caae-by-case basis, provide positive role models and a stream of activities to give their anger and self-loathing an outlet.

I'm not making excuses for every young offender out there...there are some real scum bags walking the streets, but even the monster who killed James Bulger had acute mental trauma resulting amongst other things from his nonce father (Please don't think I'm making excuses for what this creature did). I don't believe that people are born evil, it is their environment and their upbringing that shapes the more than anything, and it is the responsibility of the men and women who are in a position to help them to step in when the family construct fails (be they social workers or volunteers), rather than branding young offenders lost causes who should be banged up and forgotten about.

 

[Barn Owl]

If you were to actually sit and talk to young offenders you would soon discover that an overwhelming majority of them have had very difficult childhoods; physically and/or sexually abused, smack/heroin addicted parents who are completely apathetic towards their children, growing up playing with discarded needles and being spat on by the constant stream of men who go to visit their mothers. These are common themes that any one who works with something like a Young Offending Team could vouch for, not to mention the lack of employment prospects and poor education in inner city areas that inevitably leads to a life of crime for many youngsters. Is it really any wonder then that these angry youngsters turn to crime and violence? I've personally witnessed how convicted offenders have completely turned their life around with the intervention of Youth Offending Teams who are trained to recognise the best approach in how to deal with individuals on a caae-by-case basis, provide positive role models and a stream of activities to give their anger and self-loathing an outlet.

I'm not making excuses for every young offender out there...there are some real scum bags walking the streets, but even the monster who killed James Bulger had acute mental trauma resulting amongst other things from his nonce father (Please don't think I'm making excuses for what this creature did). I don't believe that people are born evil, it is their environment and their upbringing that shapes the more than anything, and it is the responsibility of the men and women who are in a position to help them to step in when the family construct fails (be they social workers or volunteers), rather than branding young offenders lost causes who should be banged up and forgotten about.

Wholeheartedly agree Scott,

But beaurocracy kills.

I was a cop for fifteen years,let me tell you there were many.many cases where I had to deal with young ones who were supposed to be under supervision of the social work as of orders from the childrens panel....

"Right, who's your s/w?"...Mr. or Mrs. such and such..."when did you last see them?"
Oh about six months ago when I was put on the order....

Go figure....

I know I could have taken a lot of them and done something, BUT, believe me that's all to be done in your own time and rarely in the companys...even when the brass have a photo opportunity..

Btw, I was forced to retire on ill health grounds,just in case anyone thinks I've a beef against my employers.

 

[mr dazzler]

I'm not making excuses for every young offender out there...there are some real scum bags walking the streets, but even the monster who killed James Bulger had acute mental trauma resulting amongst other things from his nonce father (Please don't think I'm making excuses for what this creature did).

If your not making excuses by mentioning his deprived background why was it necessary to mention it???

Thank you also fire crest for the testimony of the man with AS who went on to uni etc. My older boy is autistic and has no speech, that story has given me hope in some sort of way (I cant tell you how I worry for him at times, sometimes the future seems almost totally over whelming). Another thing as inspired hope was the recent tv programme about the man with no arms who has lived a normal life for 60 odd year's despite his handicap even driving vehicles at up to 100mph , using chain saw, fishing (yep-baiting hooks with live baits and unhooking fish), running a landscaping business etc all task's acomplished with his FEET :You_Rock_

 

[ScottC]

If your not making excuses by mentioning his deprived background why was it necessary to mention it???

Thank you also fire crest for the testimony of the man with AS who went on to uni etc. My older boy is autistic and has no speech, that story has given me hope in some sort of way (I cant tell you how I worry for him at times, sometimes the future seems almost totally over whelming). Another thing as inspired hope was the recent tv programme about the man with no arms who has lived a normal life for 60 odd year's despite his handicap even driving vehicles at up to 100mph , using chain saw, fishing (yep-baiting hooks with live baits and unhooking fish), running a landscaping business etc all task's acomplished with his FEET :You_Rock_

To demonstrate that if you are prepared to look close enough there is always more to it than "they're just evil" with even the most heinous of acts committed by children. Whilst it's by no means an excuse for murder, it does go some small way to explaining what possible compulsion could drive a child to kill in cold blood. When everything around you from a young age is rotten and corrupt, when you don't learn how to separate right from wrong, you are already far removed from any semblance of normality, any morals.

 

[dommyracer]

Oh heaven forbid that we should be able to show that we actually care enough about the people we want to look out for that we can fill in a bit of paperwork.

Whineing about having to do paperwork/H+S/PC gone mad/You couldn't make it up is a straw man excuse of the worst kind

 

[Barn Owl]

Oh heaven forbid that we should be able to show that we actually care enough about the people we want to look out for that we can fill in a bit of paperwork.

Whineing about having to do paperwork/H+S/PC gone mad/You couldn't make it up is a straw man excuse of the worst kind

Take a walk in the boots I've worn...It's wearing...

I don't mean to whine...I just hate it with a passion.

Please don't try and judge ,I've done what I can and been failed by a bunch of dafties sitting in offices too many times.

 

[Indoorsout]

Firecrest, all I will say is YMMV. Not all are equal, even within the same disorder. What is easy for one is hard for another and vice versa

 

[firecrest]

I don't know what YMMV means. But very little was easy for me, I deliberatly target areas of myself that I do not find easy, and that is precisely my point.