Where have all the men gone

[Toddy]

All very worthwhile and needy causes BR, and the thought and planning, and the commitment to contribute regularly is very admirable.

However, I believe the real plea here is for more menfolks to become actively engaged as role models.
When do you give 'you', your time, your experience, your efforts and personal involvement ?......these are the things that really change individuals, that allow them to see a wider viewpoint, to create a more fulfilling life for themselves, their families and ultimately their communities.
Without that face to face engagement and interaction of capable adult males in their lives then (as said above) peer group rules, rule. Ultimately leading to the social damage that affects all of our lives.


Toddy

 

[Mesquite]

It's not just the social servises where you find a lack of males working there. I work in the probation service and it's a very female dominated service now. In my own unit of 18 staff there's only 5 men and of those 5 men myself and one other don't deal directly with offenders.

When I started 8 years the team was wholey male and it was actually challenged as not being very diverse because of there being no female team members. Yet the same service actually interviewed and appointed that entire male team over a period of about 2 years!!!! Needless to say the team was broken up very quickly after that and replaced with more and more female officers.

With regards the offenders they have to sign a set of rules as to how they will work whilst they're with us. Yet despite signing the rules, having them explained to them at least 3 times at different occasions as soon as they walk out the door the majority forget all about them. I've lost count the number of times I've actually picked up their copies of the rules just outside of the door which were thrown away. So when you challenge them for breaking one you get things like 'I never agreed to that..... You can't make me do that..... You can't stop me using my mobile phone.... You can't send me home for being late etc etc etc'.

For a lot of them it's the first time someone has said NO to them, and enforced something and it comes as a real big shock when they find we actually mean what we say. Only thing is when we take them back to court more often than not they or their solicitor spin a sob story about depravation etc so the magistrates go 'ok, 10 extra hours and don't be a naughty boy again' and they walk out of the court laughing about it. I've even heard some of them tell the others 'don't worry about being breached, all they do is give you a couple extra hours so it's no big deal'.

The upshot of it all? Basically I think the society here in the UK is loosing the will to stand up and challenge bad behaviour and then enforce it should it continue. So anarchy slowly spreads.

 

[robin wood]

It is a thorny debate this one isn't it?

I think my difficulty is mainly one of priority and fairness. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for the more fortunate amongst us giving of both time and money. Indeed when BB and I discussed our charitable efforts a number of years ago we had a long and very far ranging debate

Should we give what we could to local, national or international causes?
Should we try to allieviate immediate suffering or support groups who were aiming for long term resolutions?
Should we try to plug gaps in government funding of address areas they do not cover?
Should we give regularly allowing "structured aid" or responsively to events?
Should we target individuals trying to make a difference to one life directly or more generally trying to make a contribution to a wider cause.

In the end our choices were to support four causes regularly and others either because we were moved to do so or at certain times of year.

We selected:

One medical charity to assist in trying to find cures (Cancer)
One responsive charity to help with unforseen disasters (The Red Cross)
One personally focussed charity trying to help the worlds truly needy (We sponsor two children in the same Ethiopian Village)
One UK charity try to assist the most genuinely vulnerable in the UK (Shelter)

We also support ex-Service groups and some local initiatives on a less structured but more personal footing.

Why do I raise this? Only because in my opinion (and my opinion only), all the charities mentioned address more valid causes than modern "youth" who are housed, fed and educated and commit crime through greed, apathy or even the lack of role model.

I guess every persons priorities are different but Path Finder asked why "youth" does not push my buttons as a charitable need. The answer is simple. In a world where my resources (time and money) are limited, there are simply far more deserving causes.

Red

A fine thought process and I reckon this and many of your other thought provoking and generous posts on here make you a fine male role model and mentor....maybe you are already doing the job in cyber space. In fact often men find it difficult to talk about stuff that matters face to face with eye contact, I talk best with my best mate when we are working on a motorbike together or walking. I know young folk are on myspace, beebo etc all the time so maybe forums like this are an ideal way of getting some positive messages out there. Not that I think computer time has anything like the impact of time in the woods with a good mentor but i think I would have valued and benefited from this resource when I was 16.

 

[British Red]

Toddy,

Therein lies the disagreement on approach I think. I give of “me” to MY family and my friends and their families. I do not see it as my role to perform the parenting role to the offspring of those who choose not to. I do enjoy spending time assisting others – although my time to do so is limited by work as it is for so many of us. However if I had a hundred more hours in the week, I would spend them with the involuntarily homeless, those stricken with illness, those injured in the defence of our country and those who are the victims of natural disaster. Those whose greatest problem is their inability to resist peer pressure, or understand right from wrong are not a priority in the finite resources that I can offer. If I had more time to devote (as I hope to next year) I would choose to devote it to our elderly – who have contributed their entire lives and are often friendless and alone as they approach vulnerable old age. People who paid taxes and thereby paid to educate me and often clothed and fed my schoolmates are far more deserving of my time than those who make little use of (and show scant gratitude for) the education, food and clothing that my taxes provide.

Sadly I cannot give an unlimited amount of time and money – would that I could. Where it is limited, I choose to give it to those who have no choice in their problems, rather than those who cause their own problems.

Red

 

[Toddy]

So nothing changes; the youth who could be the capable adult providers find themselves with no hope, no sense of self worth, no confidence or ability to change their lives and their outlook. They become the dissatisfied, the destructive, the burden that society either penalises and grinds down or flings grudged financial assistance towards as it endures the damage they cause.

As you say, a difference of opinion; I don't want to be old and frightened of youth like so many of the elderly are. The interaction of all ages is a normal part of a healthy society; our doesn't do it very well.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[xylaria]

Some kids are born into awful families, live in awful areas, go to awful schools and then end up young offenders. Mentoring programs like what JP does show a light out of whatever accident of birth a kid finds themselves. No child asks to be born. They did not cause their own problems, they are capable with the correct guidance to fix them though and live a life that is far better than what spawned them. It is a shame that more men don't pick up the baton, but then modern Britain is pretty selfish.

 

[Wallenstein]

There are plenty of men involved in the Scouting movement - I think this is often overlooked as a source of guidance.

The kids in our Cub Pack are from the affluent middle-classes so there's not the same kind of anti-social behaviour issues, but they still have Dads who work too long hours, and Mums whose jobs mean that childcare is a Playstation or xBox.

We've made a real effort over the last year to put the "out" back into Scouting and the lads love it - we're not trying to change the whole world, but hopefully it will expand their horizons a touch as they go through life.

 

[robin wood]

I don't think mentoring should be viewed as substitute parenting, it is rather a natural and important part of a childs growing education. My own kids before they were 5 got pretty much all their input from me, then school becomes important, once they are past 10 and particularly as they aproach 15-18 I think the role of mentors becomes vital. They have learned much of what I have to offer them, now they need to see how other folk choose to live and what moral standards they live by before choosing their own way. In many more privative societies there is a major input at this stage from tribal elders with initiation ceremonies and the like. In the past we had apprenticeships where a youth would work with and learn from his elders, I know that I certainly felt a lack of help at that stage in my own life, 16 year olds who only mix with 16 year olds can not learn how to be men.

It was a great pleasure to me to see our kids at the EMCCU summerjam this weekend chatting with a wide range of folk, Ollie and Spam enjoying shooting BB guns together, sitting chatting with Bernie Garland and Maxine about ferrets....that is mentoring and I think many kids are missing it.

 

[British Red]

And again therein lies the problem, if a man believes caring for the sick, elderly, starving, the homeless or disaster victims is a higher priority than worrying about urban youth who are fed, clothed, warm and have the option to work, they are selfish or not real men according to these quotes.

It is a shame that more men don't pick up the baton, but then modern Britain is pretty selfish.

II think its time we men started to behave like men and take up our rightful position we can not leave it all to the government etc.

Well, I consider myself a real man (and Spamel, Clem and others real men too). My priorities are to those who are real victims who have no choice in the matter. I take grave exception to the insults but I won’t sink to the level of exchanging them, so, for me, subject closed.

Red

 

[pothunter]

I don't think this is a new problem but one that has been exacerbated and highlighted by the media and politicians. I am quite sure that Victorian children and their parents faced far greater hardships, those that began to improve their lot were the church, voluntary groups, and philanthropists it was only latter that the laws began to make a difference.

A determining factor today is a welfare state that absolves people of so much responsibility, the state will educate them, find them a job or pay them to sit at home, look after housing requirements and take care of them when sick and give them a pension for doing nothing. The result being these things have no value for them because its all free.

Once upon a time there were jobs for men that gave them satisfaction, many of those jobs are gone and so many men work in a service sector that gives them no self respect.

As for male roll models and mentoring I'm fed up with touchy feely blokes that behave as though they have been neutered just so as not to offend the lady's or appear chauvinistic the result of demands for sexual equality pandered to by spineless politicians and promoted by a media that is morally corrupt .

Someone on here once said 'take responsibility for yourself, take responsibility for your family and don't be a burden on society', not a bad starting point.

 

[xylaria]

. I take grave exception to the insults but I won’t sink to the level of exchanging them, so, for me, subject closed.

Red

not agreeing with someone is not rude or insulting it is just disagreeing. I have had campfire conversations with spamel on population control, and we agreed on some pretty harsh methods. The original topic was on why more men are not volunteering to mentor youths, and I fail to see how my post was out of line.

 

[John Fenna]

Many men are so p*ssed off with threats of violence, distruptive/"challenging" behaviour and thankless work with the young of today that they will not put up with the legal assumption that they are only interested in the oportunity of working with young people due to some perverted reason and therefor have to be checked, supervised, chaperoned at every turn.
Even if you put up with all this you then are so hidebound by "health and safety" and "human rights" issues that you can barely move or do any activities worth the effort or maintain any kind of discipline within a group - the lack of which could lead to real h&s issues arising!
I work with people with learning disability and was a Scout leader for long enough to get my Long Service badge as well as having worked with the "challenging youth of today" with the Princes Trust.
The level of support given to those working with young men - never mind the pay - is enough to put off any man from working with them.
Any man who does take up this work has to be aplauded for his efforts - but is more likely to be looked at suspiciously by the majority as "no one without ulterior motives would be interested in such unrewarding work"!
If society realy wants to have men get involved in looking after the "needs" of young men then it needs to support their work with reasonable conditions and pay for the work.

Been there, tried that, got the disillusionment, now give my time, effort and charitable donations to causes I think have a better chance of improving peoples lives.

Those who do volontary work with young men for no reason other than a desire to help them are truely saints!

My opinion only

 

[jojo]

Many men are so p*ssed off with threats of violence, distruptive/"challenging" behaviour and thankless work with the young of today that they will not put up with the legal assumption that they are only interested in the oportunity of working with young people due to some perverted reason and therefor have to be checked, supervised, chaperoned at every turn.
Even if you put up with all this you then are so hidebound by "health and safety" and "human rights" issues that you can barely move or do any activities worth the effort or maintain any kind of discipline within a group - the lack of which could lead to real h&s issues arising!
I work with people with learning disability and was a Scout leader for long enough to get my Long Service badge as well as having worked with the "challenging youth of today" with the Princes Trust.
The level of support given to those working with young men - never mind the pay - is enough to put off any man from working with them.
Any man who does take up this work has to be aplauded for his efforts - but is more likely to be looked at suspiciously by the majority as "no one without ulterior motives would be interested in such unrewarding work"!
If society realy wants to have men get involved in looking after the "needs" of young men then it needs to support their work with reasonable conditions and pay for the work.

Been there, tried that, got the disillusionment, now give my time, effort and charitable donations to causes I think have a better chance of improving peoples lives.

Those who do volontary work with young men for no reason other than a desire to help them are truely saints!

My opinion only

Your opinion, John, and mine entirely. I work with people with brain injuries, all adults, quite capable to tell me to f.....off if I did anything out of place. But the hassle, time and grief getting my police check, it took nearly 3 months for the bl***dy thing to be sorted, in the meanwhile, I was rather desperate to earn a living. I could only work :supervised" as a volunteer, go figure that one , to add insult to injuries, they could not pay me. I ended up telling them I was leaving if i was not getting paid. No way would I want to do any "volunteer" work now. My wife works in the charitable sector. They can't find volunteers for exactly the reasons you mention. Some very good people are completely put off doing any volunteering because the stigma that has become attached to this: ie: if you volunteer you must be some sort of pervert" . Another instance of the government shooting themselves and everybody else in the foot with their blanket legislations..

 

[Bernie Garland]

Well for my twopeneth worth there's no discipline any more,at schools or any where,a child at school can tell a teacher to f off and get away with it,thats where its all going wrong a large majority of kids have no respect for there elders at all,and it puts people off wanting to work with them,allthough i swear.my father and mother never heard me, and it go's for my children to as they would never dare swear in front of me,

Bernie

 

[Wallenstein]

Crumbs chaps, it's all gone a bit "daily mail" in this thread!

[O]ur youth should be trained from the first in a stricter system, for if [they] become lawless, they can never grow up into well-conducted and virtuous citizens ... I mean such things as these: when the young are to be silent before their elders; how they are to show respect to them by standing and making them sit; what honour is due to parents; what garments or shoes are to be worn; the mode of dressing the hair; deportment and manners in general.

That was written by Plato in 360BC... so some things never change! Kids are always terrorising the older generation, and you'll always have a few old duffers complaining that society was "better when I were a lad".

But most of the kids I meet and work with are polite, well-behaved and pleasant - they can be cheeky b*ggers, but that's part of being a kid.

The stories of lawless classrooms and feral children make news because they are unusual... yes, life is different to the 1950s but that's the way it goes.

 

[Jedadiah]

Just for the record, i do voluntary work with my local Youth Offending Team. Working with young people who have been referred to us by the Youth Justice Court, i have seen kids from many differing social and family backgrounds. One thing i have found common to the vast majority of cases is this: They have no self respect, mainly because they have not achieved anything to be proud of. This inturn leads to not respecting others.

I believe that, if a young person is given realistic and achievable goals and is mentored by a suitable role model, then they can achieve self respect and, therefore, learn to respect others. If they do not have suitable role models in their social situation (this includes parents) are we to let the situation self perpetuate until it arrives on our doorstep, or should a few of us stop moaning and start doing?

Granted, some may not be suitable, some of us have strong opinions on the subject (as mentioned previously on this thread) but i started volunteering because i was sick of people moaning about the state of the youth today and not doing anything about it.

I'm not saying we should all rush out and start volunteering our services to Youth Organisations, what i'm saying is, a lot of people make mistakes. I'm sure a few of us have messed up along the way; how would you have felt if someone judged you by a mistake you made instead of tutting, rolling their eye's and pointing you in the right direction. Yes, there are some toe rag's around, of that there is no doubt, but hows about giving some scallies a break and educating them about responsibilities instead of rights, afterall, they may not know any better. How are they expected to learn if they are just written off and consigned to the social skip?

If a child misbehaves, do you write it off as a 'Bad 'un'? Ignore the bad one's and concentrate on the good ones, teaching them that everyone who makes mistakes are worthless.

All i'm saying is, with a bit of reflection, mistakes are learning opportunities. Lets look at ourselves and our past before being judgemental about the Youth of today rather than right them off as 'Hoodies' and ner'do wells, we were all there once, albeit slightly different.

 

[Tadpole]

Crumbs chaps, it's all gone a bit "daily mail" in this thread!


That was written by Plato in 360BC... so some things never change! Kids are always terrorising the older generation, and you'll always have a few old duffers complaining that society was "better when I were a lad".

But most of the kids I meet and work with are polite, well-behaved and pleasant - they can be cheeky b*ggers, but that's part of being a kid.

The stories of lawless classrooms and feral children make news because they are unusual... yes, life is different to the 1950s but that's the way it goes.

Were I able to give you a whole bucket full of Rep I would, well done well done!

 

[Paganwolf]

I think some of you have strayed from the path in terms of mentoring and indipendant visiting, these Kids can range from 8 to 16 they have been dealt a shi**y hand in life and are in care, wrenched from their birth families in their tender years and thrown sometimes with nothing and sometimes in the dead of night into foster homes for what ever reason, abuse, parents taken into prison, at risk etc, kids that are surrounded by bad roll models and peers eg potential offenders and kids that have been caught commiting an offence. I get a bit sick of the selfish attitude of "if it aint nothing to do with me then sod em" or " if its not on my door step then who cares" not every child out there are blessed with good parents so does that make the ones that are with out positive roll models not worthy of love care and help from a good person?

My life is very busy I work 12 hour shifts 5 days a week, and teach most weekends, ive been out tutoring 25 air cadets this weekend. I also have 2 kids and sometimes my kids come with me if im out, i have my children as much as possible, and they are fantastic kids and have happy full lives.They are lucky ones.
But i still have found the time to go through the training to become a mentor and indipendant visitor, my kids are proud of me for helping other children less fortunate than them, they understand, and they realise they are fortunate to have a Dad and mum and step dad who loves them dearly, and realise there are those out there who have not... it only takes a few hours a week and some time on the phone to make a difference to some poor childs life.

You all have the power of nature at your finger tips, many of you fancy your selves as instructors / tutors, why not put that to good use I garentee there are charities in your areas screaming out for the help of guys to give up a couple of hours a week to spend walking and talking and giving advice to an unfortunate youngster, were not talking hoodie knife carrying criminals here that want no help and dont give a toss, were talking unfortunate kids who through no fault of there own most of the time are in care with no one other than the authorities for them to talk to and "want" a friend /mentor to talk to who isnt a part of the establishment and are doing it for no finantial gain because they want to and want to be their friend. Even the youth offenders are mostly bloody good kids that strayed from the path and got caught!

Anyone can go through life cuddling their own ego and fluffing their own pillows, its a real seriously shi**y world out there for some kids and the reality of it is as Geoff says there are a severe lack of men that want to give time, not money just time, just a little time from there busy lives to help another human and a child at that in need. JP. .......

 

[deeps]

Part of the problem imo is that it is now unusual for people to be involved in any sort of community work. I lived in NZ a while back and whenever we interviewed people for a job we always asked 'what can you do ? ' (ie questions about capability for the job) and, equally importantly, 'what else do you do ? (questions about your hobbies and community involvement' Particularly in rural areas you want to know that your neighbours are going to muck in and help build and maintain the local community.

 

[Pict]

You can't fix all of society but you can have a tremendous impact on the few lives that you can touch. Get involved with young people and you will be surprised. Many of them are really looking for a male role model that gives a rip about them. Both as a High School teacher and as a youth Pastor I have had lots of opportunity to make a difference. Consider that you may very well be the first man that kid has met that doesn't drink himself blind and beat his wife. Lots of kids can't see themselves in any other role than that because they've never met a man who wasn't.

A few months ago I was seriously stressed and decided to take a few days off an go out to the bush. I made the mistake of mentioning it and three guys invited themselves to go with me. It was one of the best trips I've ever taken and had a huge impact on them. You will have more influence than you realize. Mac