what to buy..stone built or modern ?

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woof

Full Member
Apr 12, 2008
3,647
5
lincolnshire
Gotta ask the obvious: What's the chance of just having your own built to suit?

For us its not an option. I've no mortgage & don't want to borrow money, so the sale of my house & some of my savings is what i'll be using.

Thanks for all the replies folks, & demographic, i'll check up on the insulation of the stone one, thanks for the heads up.

Rob
 

hammy

Forager
Sep 28, 2004
165
2
56
Pegswood, Northumberland.
Re insulation. Don't post much so here goes. I live in a concrete prefab built just after ww2, are heating is via bottled gas through a combined boiler. Last year we had the entire house clad in 100mm kingspan then multi coat rendered with a self cleaning paint to Finnish. Our heating bills last winter were cut in half. For us a massive saving. Hope this helps in some way.
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
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711
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Re insulation. Don't post much so here goes. I live in a concrete prefab built just after ww2, are heating is via bottled gas through a combined boiler. Last year we had the entire house clad in 100mm kingspan then multi coat rendered with a self cleaning paint to Finnish. Our heating bills last winter were cut in half. For us a massive saving. Hope this helps in some way.


Yeah, that goes with what I've seen.

For years we in the UK have been lagging behind other countries as far as the amount of insulation we add to a new home.

I can remember working on places in the late 80s with very little in the way of insulation but finally we are starting to realise just how much difference it makes to peoples quality of life when they don't have to knock their pans in to pay to heat the house.

I enjoy chopping wood, its an OK job really but I'm 42 and I do most of it at work anyway. Move that on to me being late 70s? Hmm, less keen on that idea. Those people end up moving out from the home they have grown to love because they failed to plan ahead and time caught up with them.

I feel that we in the UK have been very shortsighted regarding housing, often going for the short term looks nice and cheaper instead of the long term efficiencies.

Was over in Normandy a while ago and most of the people buying pretty stone buildings are English, the French have moved somewhere cheaper to heat and are flogging the cold places off to the daft Brits.
 

nuggets

Native
Jan 31, 2010
1,070
0
england
any space in the loft of this bungalow to convert ?? Massive potential for usable storage /habitable rooms ! How damp are these barns ??? :)
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,133
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Pembrokeshire
My house is mainly 200 years old with a couple of modern bits added.
We have had no issues with the old bit but the modern (60s/70s) bit is pants. The 90s bit is...OK...
3' thick walls store heat in winter and are cool in summer. The hand built windows defy rot, the (unfelted) slate roof is watertight, the inglenook fireplace - solid!
We have had to reroof the 90s bit, rebuild the 60s porch, replace 90s windows and relay the 90s paths. The old stuff just gets on with being there!
If I had the choice I would have built the new bits to 1800s specs!
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,694
711
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My house is mainly 200 years old with a couple of modern bits added.
We have had no issues with the old bit but the modern (60s/70s) bit is pants. The 90s bit is...OK...
3' thick walls store heat in winter and are cool in summer. The hand built windows defy rot, the (unfelted) slate roof is watertight, the inglenook fireplace - solid!
We have had to reroof the 90s bit, rebuild the 60s porch, replace 90s windows and relay the 90s paths. The old stuff just gets on with being there!
If I had the choice I would have built the new bits to 1800s specs!

Can't have spent much time in a new timber framed properly insulated house then.

MUCH more efficient. The only people who even argue against that point are the people who haven't seen the better way.

Obviously I'm fascinated by these mega efficient old houses that manage to hold heat in their totally uninsulated walls. Yes I've heard of Tromb walls as well, not on the north face though eh? You can tell me how efficient they are till you are blue in the face, its just not. I've lived in them, worked on them, made them better and worked on places that are just better built from the start.

How much insulation in the walls? How about under your floor? Draft? Traditional fireplace or waaaaaay more efficient stove? Loft insulation? Dot and dabbed with insulated plasterboard?

There's many things I don't know much about, bushcraft being one. But don't tell me that non insulated houses are even close to being as efficient as modern homes cos I do know a little bit about building.

I'm still not blown away by the size of the rooms in new houses though. Often too small.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,715
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Surely smaller rooms are the epitome of efficiency though? If the only criteria is thermal efficiency, the less space the better.

For me, like John, you can keep the modern stuff. Soulless little Euroboxes for the most part. What you call "draft" I call airflow. Sealed up buildings are stuffy and oppressive.

Thats okay though - we can both choose what satisfies us the most.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Can't have spent much time in a new timber framed properly insulated house then.....

I've spent the better part of 50 years in them (57 years less a few spent in either England or in block military dorms)

They're built to be obsolete, torn down, and replaced every 30 years or so. Actually, that can be an advantage.
 

Toddy

Mod
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Jan 21, 2005
38,972
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HWMBLT and I were talking about this just yesterday.
We both grew up in sandstone houses, with every draft and whistling hallway. We mind coorieing down in bed and shivering knowing we had to get up and get dressed in the morning. We mind the draft stoppers at the bottom of the doorways, the smell of damp, even in those houses that were heated constantly. High ceilings add a spacious feeling....bit of a beggar to heat, clean, paint, change the lightbulbs, though :rolleyes:

I love the old red sandstone that's native round here :) I would love to have two foot thick walls of it, properly built on good damp proofed coursings, and then that properly insulated and draft proofed and ventilated with modern techniques for both comfort and energy efficiency.

The scullery (outer kitchen) of my Granny's house had a beaten earth floor with slate slabs on top.
The dairy I worked in as a teenager at school had the same slate slabs and water from the underground spring slowly seeped up through them. Main rooms had wide oak planks for flooring and even though they were feather jointed, the drafts were always there.
We wear hardly any clothes these days; the auntie commented on that recently. In her childhood she had something like six layers of clothes, (seven with a coat on) and that's just pre second world war. There was a reason for that.....it was cold and damp otherwise.

I have stayed in stone built houses across the UK; from medieval lake district to early medieval Scottish lochside, from 15th and 18th century farm houses to 16th and 17thC fishermen's cottages.
They are all cold, inconvenient, hard to heat easily and they all suffer from rot of some kind whether it be fungal or beetle, it gets them all eventually. There are reasons we don't have that many old buildings really.

There's a lot that can be done to improve them though, adding south facing glass buildings is a tremendous advantage for instance. Damp proof coursing, loft insulation, properly fitting doors and windows, underfloor insulation and specific channels for drawing outside air for stoves, etc., ventilation that doesn't necessitate a howling gale blowing down the hallways; bathrooms and loos that aren't like the inside of the fridge :)
All fine if you have money and time to do it; I would love more space, but I'm not for moving into a sandstone building just to get it.

No reason modern homes shouldn't have large rooms; self builds often do as do high end homes. That space though adds to the price nowadays, and houses are apparantly 'investments' not just some place to live.
Son1's new flat (10 years old) has a living room that's 6m x 8m, the kitchen/dining area is just about as large, the bedrooms are all over 5m x 4m, three bathrooms and two boxrooms, and that's in an ordinary block of flats in Glasgow.
It doesn't have 12 foot high ceilings though :D or wood burning stoves, but his total fuel bills work out at under £60 a month, all year long, and he comes home from work to chill out, not to start humping coal and wood indoors for the fire.

Look, I like fire, I do, but I've been a housewife since my mum died when I was fourteen. It's beyond scunnering to have to deal with the fire day in day out, week in week out, month in month out, and it's more of a scunner to keep cleaning the same stuff because of it. There are no clean fires. One way or another they need fuel, they need cleaned, they need tending. I hear all the talk of stoves and such like...the same thing applies, and do you really want to have to run the stove to give you hot water in the heat of Summer ?
I have had enough of it, I'm not doing it again.
It's a quiet delight to have the fire going and know you have fuel stashed, etc., to see you through rotten weather, but it's another thing entirely to have to do that.
I am beyond glad my elderly relations have moved into more modern houses and have good easy warmth and comfort....trust me, in their nineties they're not up for cutting up firewood or lugging coal around.

It's late August, the outside temperature here is 13degC, my home is sitting at a pleasant 19degC and we have no heating on. I'm wearing a short sleeved summer weight blouse, and I'm comfortable.....but we have insulated walls, floors and loft and double glazed windows and doors.

Each to their own; I miss the sandstone and slate, but I don't miss the endless drudgery or the cold damp, the fuel bills or the firewood and coal.

M
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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.......
Son1's new flat (10 years old) has a living room that's 6m x 8m, the kitchen/dining area is just about as large, the bedrooms are all over 5m x 4m, three bathrooms and two boxrooms, and that's in an ordinary block of flats in Glasgow.
It doesn't have 12 foot high ceilings though :D or wood burning stoves, but his total fuel bills work out at under £60 a month, all year long........

My house (about 25 years old) Is just over 1018 square feet of heated interior space. My biggest gas bill in the dead of winter was only about $45 (27 pounds) and that included heating, cooking, water heater, and the gas tumble clothes dryer. In the middle of Summer, Autumn, and Spring (when the heat isn't used) my gas bill goes down to less than $30 (18.1 pounds) I could cut both those bills down by changing to a better water heater (on demand vs the tank heater I now have) but that would take 10 to q5 years for the savings to justify the cost of said water heater (tankless, on demand appliances ain't cheap! I know, I priced one when the old water heater died)

However, right now in the heat of August, my air conditioning will shoot my electric bill to over $130 (78.42 pounds)
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
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711
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Like Mary above^ I love fires. Got a little woodburner which we use in addition to the central heating (central heating in the morning cos I can't be trashed and woodburner on a night when I come home from work with a few bits of wood).

My house is a Victorian terrace that me and my brother put insulated plasterboard into, masses of insulation in the loft ceilings (when I did the loft conversion) and its way more efficient than it was when I bought it.

Thing is, I've worked on quite a lot of Timber framed buildings and they are that much better again.

This thing about them needing torn down in thirty years doesn't really apply to them. Unless some wally lets the guttering block (and bearing in mind the fact that termites aren't a problem over here) they are built to last.

Watertight, hold heat in and as they get older the owners can still afford to live their lives a bit instead of having that constant drain on their resources that inefficient homes are.

Thing is, with an efficient house the owners have the option to open a window and havs exactly as much air in as they want. With old farmhouses (that I've lived in, worked on, improved and whatever else) that isn't an option. Its always blowing a gale under the doors, through the comedy value windows (they look cute though eh?) and then they lose heat from every single surface.

I'm not suggesting that houses upto maybe the last ten years are much better mind, as the insulation values have been minimum to get past building control and that was always a joke really.

Only recently when airtests came in have people had to take it seriously. You can have the nicest bucket in the world, but if its got a hole in it it won't hold water. Insulation isn't far off that kind of thing. Have a load of insulation but if the wind whistles through it you have just wasted your time and money putting it in. Moisture barriers mean that moisture doesn't get through and condense in the insulation.

All too often I'm seeing older people who moved out into their dream home in the country then can't really afford to heat it. It just doesn't have to be that way and pussyfooting round the issue doesn't help anyone.

Even if I had woodlands and free wood I would still want an efficient house cos even though chopping wood can be a nice job now I imagine its not going to be so great when I have to do three times as much as I should and I'm in my 70s. Anyone that actually buys wood to burn and doesn't live in a house that's well insulated really needs their bumps read. If you have to buy it wood isn't a cheap way to heat a house these days.

People often say they can't afford to insulate their homes, in reality they can't afford not to.

I don't mind going camping when its below zero, I take good kit and its only for a few days, can't be done with pretty looking cold boxes to live in full time. Its absolute idiocy.

There, think I've nailed my colours to the mast with that one...
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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Sorry, cross posted with demographic....reply to santaman2000

How come tankless heaters aren't cheap over there ? :dunno: You can buy a fairly decent shower one here for £70. More features if you pay more right enough.

The rest of our hot water comes from a incredibly insulated tank in the loft. Takes about 15 minutes to heat the whole thing from cold, and it'll easily fill a deep bath and still have some hot water left.

M
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Florida
......Thing is, I've worked on quite a lot of Timber framed buildings and they are that much better again.

This thing about them needing torn down in thirty years doesn't really apply to them. Unless some wally lets the guttering block (and bearing in mind the fact that termites aren't a problem over here) they are built to last........

......Thing is, with an efficient house the owners have the option to open a window and havs exactly as much air in as they want.

Granted timber frame house can and do last for centuries if they're properly maintained. My younger cousin is still living in one that's been in our family well over a century already. That said, it's had to be updated countless times: indoor plumbing added, electrical wiring added, etc. And that was all almost a century ago. More recently the insulation you speak of had to be added (timber frame buildings weren't originally insulated either) The problem however (whether with timber framed buildings or with solid masonry buildings) is that their very designs are obsolete within a couple of decades. In the 70s everybody wanted (and built Ranch Style homes. Now they simple don't sell and are torn down to make room for more modern designs that are in demand (hence my comment that the obsolescence can be a good thing) Add to that the fact that if a house is over 20 years old, it's unlikely that an insurance company will issue coverage to a new buyer unless the wiring is updated.


The owner of an "efficient home" has the option of opening a window? I'm not sure we have the same definition of an "energy efficient home" on both sides of the Atlantic. The very definition here means limiting the number and size of windows. Older homes in the South all had at least two (usually more) windows per room and always had them on at least two different walls within the room to facilitate cross flow. Modern "energy efficient" rated homes have no windows on either end of the house and at most, one small window per room (none in a steamy bathroom)
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Florida
Sorry, cross posted with demographic....reply to santaman2000

How come tankless heaters aren't cheap over there ? :dunno: You can buy a fairly decent shower one here for £70. More features if you pay more right enough.

The rest of our hot water comes from a incredibly insulated tank in the loft. Takes about 15 minutes to heat the whole thing from cold, and it'll easily fill a deep bath and still have some hot water left.

M

Couldn't answer the question as to "why." Unless possibly they are of a different design? I really don't know. The ordinary tank water heater I bought was about $300 (180.96 pounds) or a bit less (installed) from the gas company. I'm sure I could have found a cheaper one by shopping around but not by much. The on demand, tankless ones started over $1500 (904.8 pounds) for the low end ones. Add to that the fact I don't have a garage and I didn't really want it just hanging onto a wall on the outside of the house (the conventional tank heater can be mounted inside in the laundry/utility room)
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,694
711
-------------
Granted timber frame house can and do last for centuries if they're properly maintained. My younger cousin is still living in one that's been in our family well over a century already. That said, it's had to be updated countless times: indoor plumbing added, electrical wiring added, etc. And that was all almost a century ago. More recently the insulation you speak of had to be added (timber frame buildings weren't originally insulated either) The problem however (whether with timber framed buildings or with solid masonry buildings) is that their very designs are obsolete within a couple of decades. In the 70s everybody wanted (and built Ranch Style homes. Now they simple don't sell and are torn down to make room for more modern designs that are in demand (hence my comment that the obsolescence can be a good thing) Add to that the fact that if a house is over 20 years old, it's unlikely that an insurance company will issue coverage to a new buyer unless the wiring is updated.


The owner of an "efficient home" has the option of opening a window? I'm not sure we have the same definition of an "energy efficient home" on both sides of the Atlantic. The very definition here means limiting the number and size of windows. Older homes in the South all had at least two (usually more) windows per room and always had them on at least two different walls within the room to facilitate cross flow. Modern "energy efficient" rated homes have no windows on either end of the house and at most, one small window per room (none in a steamy bathroom)

Not many homes over hear have or need air conditioning, Hot weather isn't that much of a problem in the UK.

I added two Velux rooflights in the master bedroom in my house to allow cross airflow but I also insulated the roof well as badly insulated loft conversions are too hot in summer and too cold in winter.
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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We must be talking about entirely different types of heaters santaman2000. I mean the kind of thing that fits into the shower enclosure...it's a wee box on the bathroom wall. Hot water on demand for as long and as hot as you like it.

Similar ones are available for kitchens, though rarely seen nowadays....kind of like a kettle on the wall sort of thing.
Usually they're fitted under the sink in modern kitchens.
Like this....
http://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/i...-tap-gn1100/?gclid=CIDKh6Gyr8ACFW3JtAodwhoAAA

Land is usually so expensive for houseplots here that it many ways that prescribes the type of building. Bungalow, terrace, semi, villa, or flats, pretty much defines most of them. This is an expensive bit of the world (we're local, not posh I hasten to add) but there are a lot of 'macmansions' going up too, and again, the plot's often an extortionate price for a scrap of land.

M
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,972
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Ahhhh. :eek:

But they're not that expensive ..... £600 buys a family sized one.
I don't mind what ours cost, but it's the kind that does have a tank too, my bother's FIL runs a plumbing business and he said it was a better system if you want a bath, if a more expensive original outlay, but the boiler just fits into one end of the cupboard in the back bedroom. It needs an outside wall flue cut, but that's it.
We used to have one that had a flue up through the loft and out at the ridge of the eaves. I preferred that one to be honest, because the loft was never cold/cold, iimmc. The flue pipe kept the chill out of it too.

Monarch's combi boiler is a white box on the kitchen wall, its just looks like another wall cabinet. Hot water on demand, heats the house with radiators too; what's not to like?

M
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
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It depends on the make and model. I like them - we ripped out the old hot water tank - you don't need one with a combi. Its a nice efficient way of running a bath (or the full central heating we have) in our nice efficient 1700s house :) A tank of gas lasts years too :)
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Florida
We must be talking about entirely different types of heaters santaman2000. I mean the kind of thing that fits into the shower enclosure...it's a wee box on the bathroom wall. Hot water on demand for as long and as hot as you like it.....

Indeed we are talking about different ones then. The ones I'm talking about furnish the entire hot water supply for the whole house. And they aren't allowed inside living space.
 

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