What does a Bird Think When it Looks at You?

[British Red]

Aaah fantastic - thank you

We agree that anthropomorphising is both vain and pointless.

So to the OP I think the answer must be "we have no way of knowing what a bird thinks. It does not think like a human and ascribing human thoughts and emotions to it is fruitless"

Which is where I came in to the conversation

Goodnight Mike

 

[woodsorrel]

I have enjoyed reading the many thoughtful posts.

The intent of the original article (full article) was to prompt people to think about the size difference between themselves and many animals. We humans are proportionally larger compared to songbirds than dinosaurs are to us. This fascinates me. I wonder about the bird's perspective.

Humans tend to be poor at judging time and distance/size. This is particularly true at scales beyond our immediate ability to sense. I regret not posting more of the original article. It contains two charts and a link to an interactive "size of the universe" display that I hope encourages us to consider the difference of scale.

Several of the posts in this thread focus on behavior. I completely agree that what a bird actually "thinks" is up for debate. The article makes no attempt to define or explain avian behavior. Rather it talks about size. Metaphorically, we are humongous dinosaurs compared to songbirds.

Regards,

- Woodsorrel

 

[oldtimer]

I recall the late Tony Soper saying, "Most birds are better at being birds than human beings are at being human beings."

In this debate 'intelligence' needs to be defined. Never mind birds, I hear what you say and experience what you do, but how can I really know what you are thinking.

 

[mountainm]

So to the OP I think the answer must be "we have no way of knowing what a bird thinks. It does not think like a human..."

The first statement negates the second.

 

[British Red]

The first statement negates the second.

No, it doesn't. They do not have the experience, language and education of a human, ergo they don't think like a human. What they do think is unknown.

 

[mountainm]

Yes it does. You don't know how they think. Therefore you can't say that they don't think like a human.

 

[British Red]

That simply doesn't follow. I can look at something and not know what it is, but I can deduce many things that it is not.

I may not know what a weird electronic device is, but I know it is not a blue whale.

I may not know how a creature with a different physiognomy, diet and habitat thinks, but, for example by observing its reaction to stimuli, I can deduce that it does not think like me.

 

[mountainm]

That simply doesn't follow. I can look at something and not know what it is, but I can deduce many things that it is not.

I may not know what a weird electronic device is, but I know it is not a blue whale.

I may not know how a creature with a different physiognomy, diet and habitat thinks, but, for example by observing its reaction to stimuli, I can deduce that it does not think like me.

That isn't true. What you said is the equivalent of:

"There is absolutely no way I can know what number you are or are not thinking of. But I know it isn't the number 5."

 

[British Red]

No it isn't Mike - what I said is logical and consistent. However you and I are not seeing eye to eye on this so lets leave the topic alone knowing that we do not agree.

 

[mountainm]

No it isn't Mike - what I said is logical and consistent. However you and I are not seeing eye to eye on this so lets leave the topic alone knowing that we do not agree.

Agreed. I will also leave the thread knowing I'm right

 

[petrochemicals]

That's a good graph, we're only about equal to chimps, and wikipedia has us a step down on lions???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio


But I think you will find comprehensive evidence from this internet page to prove small birds are significantly more cleverer than wot we are

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Int3.html

And further to the point of birds having had time to evolve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence.

N.B. Predators always seem to have larger brains, dolphin sperrm whale and killer being more intelegent than blue wales!

 

[Robson Valley]

I'm happy to know that the local "unkindness" of Ravens know who I am.
It's winter, they won't start talking again until the end of February and,
they have an enormous vocabulary of sounds. They use their beaks to point to things that the
others should look at. They can fill a tin can with rocks to raise the water level for a drink.
Is that simple?

Humpback whales, dolphins and Orca collaborate in hunting.

 

[petrochemicals]

. They use their beaks to point to things that the
others should look at. They can fill a tin can with rocks to raise the water level for a drink.
Is that simple? And octopuses are also highly intelligent but lack a vertebrae?

Maybe it's the fact that that birds show behavior like that, intelligence baised on non habitual behavior, initiative and independent thinking. Some may say
Higher intelligence?

 

[petrochemicals]

Worth noting we are no "cleverer" Now than when we first left Africa. We have just benefited from accumulated knowledge.

And neanderthals have/had (red hair paisty skin) the largest brains of all. It's all about which regions of the brain frontal coretex left side right side etc. Neanderthals are believed to have been socially minded and less animalistic, which is why they probably died out, they do not equate to the survival of the fittest!

Goodnight neanderthals, I regard you in the highest esteem.

 

[Robson Valley]

I like the Ravens, I carve them in wood, I feed them when it's cold (-25C)and snowy (12" - 30").
I talk to them. In the winter, they don't speak.

West on HWY 16, at the West Twin River bridge, there's a bridge repair project which has gone on for months and months.
Single lane, delays, the usual. The traffic controllers have made friends with the Ravens, it's quite a sight.
Side by side, walking around, talking to eachother. Companionship in a lonely, dirty, wet, cold and windy job.

 

[mrcharly]

Agriculture had been the death of many civilisations but we never learn from our mistakes 'long term'..

Could you explain that, please?

 

[mountainm]

Could you explain that, please?

I should qualify it that Agriculture is also the Birth of Civilisations.


Other folks can explain it better than I
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2010/06/farmed-to-death.html

http://news.discovery.com/human/lif...stroyed-ancient-human-civilization-141118.htm

In essence agriculture forces people to live together in large groups, concentrating populations (making them vulnerable to disease and changes in the weather), concentrating opinions and beliefs (stoking the fires of war and crime), and ultimately creating a population explosion which usually leads to over farming, then war (over food, territory beliefs etc.) , famine, disease, or any combination. Until ultimately a civilisation either dies, consumes another or is consumed.