Vegan advice

[Janne]

I do not think the Scandinavian Paleo people were eating much shellfish.
I do not recall having read about shell filled middens.
The few sites found are far more inland, in the forests. Even considering the land elevation since their times - no shells.

Maybe the land based animal protein was more plentyful and easily cought.

As far as I am aware, mushrooms contain only trace amounts of B12.
One serving will give you around 2% of the recommended daily dose.

 

[Toddy]

Rather steep coastline, but the Vikings used shellfish as bait for their deep sea fishing....and mind too that Western Europe is much wider than Scandinavia.

 

[Janne]

The west coast of Sweden has a favourable coast for mussels, clams and limpets.
The Norse did eat more seafood, and were expert fishermen. Export of dried (later salted and dried) fish was a huge export.
Of course the Lofoten screi cod fishery was the most important, and is important even today.

But I was referring to the happy Paleolithic times.

I wonder if the OP has tried any of our ideas about ‘sandwich glue’?

 

[Toddy]

I have memories of reading about mesolithic shell middens in Denmark and the like, and a comment about salinity of some of the Norwegian fjords not being conducive to shellfish, but the books are upstairs or in Uni libraries, so I did a quick google. Paleolithic in western Europe is often a clean slate, especially coastal communities.

Have a look through this lot
https://scholar.google.co.uk/schola...ved=0ahUKEwiK3qGjlunYAhVqLcAKHTj0DswQgQMIJzAA

 

[Janne]

Yes, Denmarks are still big on shellfish... largest oyster producer in Europe even?

Interesting about the salinity. The Baltic is brackish, but The Swedish West coast salinity is virtually as in the North Sea.
Less towards the Öresund strait.

Could be how the land/sea interface is. Not many shallow beaches and cliffs, the water goes deep quite rapidly.

 

[Janne]

I chrcked the B12 in mushrooms online.
Says most is on the outside ( you wash that) and the levels wary hugely, but the levels are very low.

To feed a small rapidly growing child Vegan food is a risky business, it seems you need to be an nutritional expert!

 

[Broch]

I chrcked the B12 in mushrooms online.
Says most is on the outside ( you wash that) and the levels wary hugely, but the levels are very low.

To feed a small rapidly growing child Vegan food is a risky business, it seems you need to be an nutritional expert!

Great thread by the way.... I hope the OP is getting as much out of it as I am

It's very hard to find data that you can trust on fungus food values; I've been trying to get to the bottom of this for a while to enable me to balance my foraging plans. I suspect the article you're quoting Janne is the one that states it's possible that all the B12 is from the bacteria on the surface of the mushroom - but still it's not definitive. I've found other articles (equally trustworthy (?) ) stating that there is B12 in mushrooms, others again that say there is no B12 but there is B6 .... and so it goes on. And... how much variations is there between species?

There must be a trustworthy source of definitive objective data out there somewhere; can anyone point to one please?

 

[Janne]

I think that the mushroom dilemma is due to a couple of things.
Difference in soils, difference between sorts of wild mushrooms.
Difference in growing media and difference between the various sources and genetic variations of the in shops common Champignon mushroom.

One thing I know and is very well measured and documented is that mushrooms take up heavy metals including the radioactive isotopes easily and readily!

I am not 100% sure that any data of any foodstuff is accurate.
Again, soils, feeds, genetic variations, and not least, measuring methods.

Also our uptake with different food combinations varies

The Recommended Daily Intake - overdosing - toxicity is the same problem.
We can send Man to the Moon, but we are not sure about much about ourselves!

My motto is - overdo the micro nutrients a bit.
Feed the child a varied, least processed and leased travelled food.
Not vegan. Not vegetarian. Omnivorous.
A little bit of animal is good for it.
Easily resorbed proteins, minerals, iron and other nutrients.

Spinach is not so full of Iron as has been said.
Gently cooked veg is better for us than raw, as the nutrients get fully absorbed by us, even if some of them has keached out into the cooking water.
Soup from it? Sauce base?


Lots of Vegan food is hugely processed.

I like Quorn. Like the texture, taste of the unflavoured one.

The flavoured ones - full of artificial stuff. Good for us?
I do not know!

 

[Toddy]

From a vegetarian mother's point of view.

Keep the diet as varied and wide ranging as possible. Children are attracted to colour; naturally colourful food is good for us.
Even if they only eat a mouthful of a myriad of different foods, that's fine, and it gives them the micro nutrients.
Seasonality is a good thing, and that's from veg, to saladings to fruits and nuts, seeds and grains.

Children need calories; stodge is not a bad thing. Oats, potatoes, rice, corn, and the like are good food, just don't only feed stodge but don't starve the growing child out of some sense that it is healthy. Look up Harris Lines if you question me on that.

Sugar isn't the enemy but a little can go a long way. Fake sugars are not good things to be feeding anyone.
Mind it takes 2metres of sugar cane to make enough for one glass of coke or other fizzy pop, that's an overkill of sugar.

Salt isn't the enemy either, just be aware of it and encourage the natural taste of food rather than over seasoned.

Processed food is handy, but read the labels. Marmite is just boiled yeast, but that still makes it 'processed', iimmc ? If you're vegan you do know how to read the labels properly

Generations of healthy people have been reared vegetarian (and vegan) don't make food a hassle worrying about it, keep it a pleasure.

In our climate, with our very much 'indoors' lifestyles, Vitamin D is really lacking. If you don't drink milk, you need to get some way of boosting the vitamin D as well as the B vitamins. Nutritional yeast flakes are very good, tasty, and make an easy addition to cooking, they add savouryness without adding salt, and it sorts out the B vitamin issue nicely. Engevita....cheapest source is Amazon.co.uk. They sell the big cans in a six pack, if you like the stuff. It was bought for me, but I think my husband's addicted to it 'cos we're going through it at an amazing rate

I am, honey and a little mature cheese apart, pretty much vegan. There is a standing joke about camping with me, "It's not six a day, it's six at every meal", I don't find that a problem I didn't find it a problem rearing healthy vegetarian children. Now, I wouldn't worry about rearing healthy vegan children either.

M

 

[Janne]

Apart from the last sentense I think your post is super!

 

[Tengu]

My friend who is Coelic (?) said that a child with allergies should be fed as wide a variety of things they are able to eat as possible.

Faddy eating is bad.

And our habits are formed early. I was lucky, my family grew things to eat. even if I did not eat them at the table, chances the garden would end up full of pea pods and carrot tops...

But I was given too much dried fruit (health food but very sugary) and sweets. It has not done me much good in later life, and getting away from sugar, even for me, who prefers savoury foodstuffs, is proving very hard.

I was a picky eater, and so always given plenty of meat and pasta, -stuff I love. No wonder I grew to be much bigger than my Father. (and my mother and her parents were also tiny.)

(My familys one despair was I ate very slowly.)

 

[santaman2000]

By my math from that chart, oysters and similar shellfish have just over 8 calories each (100 calories per dozen) That's not a lot but it's considerably more than "one" calorie per oyster. A typical meal of oysters is about a dozen or less. That's hardly a huge number (a dozen) You pull up a few times that many in a single rake. Crabs here are small too (at least our common blue crab) Only average about 3 to 4 inches across the carapace. Usual meal for one adult is either a half dozen or a dozen crabs; again, several times that are easily taken from a single trap left overnight or by wading and netting. Even now with strict harvest laws the recreational limit is 10 gallons per harvester per day. They're simply readily available, easy to harvest and plentiful even for children.

 

[santaman2000]

My friend who is Coelic (?) said that a child with allergies should be fed as wide a variety of things they are able to eat as possible.

Faddy eating is bad.....

The closest disease/condition I can find to your spelling is "celiac." It's an autoimmune desease in which the body reacts adversely to gluten. Gluten is naturally present in most grains and foods made from grains. Ingesting it will cause severe bowel problems and can be fatal. Corn, buckwheat, rice, and oats are exceptions and can be safely eaten IF they aren't cross contaminated by being produced or packaged on the same machinery or in the same facility as glutenous grains.There is no known way to build a celiac's tolerance back.

Once diagnosed, the only course is complete avoidance of ALL glutenous foods: normal breads, pastas, most canned soups and stews, most bottled sauces, beer, and just about everything on a normal (healthy) person's diet. Even whiskey is off limits.

Unfortunately gluten free diets have become a fad even among those who aren't celiac. That's been both a blessing and a curse for celiacs. The blessing is that more and more gluten free products are becoming available and their quality and taste are improving as the prices come down. The curse is that with so many simply following the "fad" true celiacs find it harder to be taken seriously and are often treated with apathy at best, sneering at worst, when questioning wait staff. They're also often lied to when said staff just proclaim their food is gluten free without caring to even check.

In the last 8 years or so, I've spent several nights sat beside my daughter in the local emergency room after she was "glutened." To complicate the situation she, like a large proportion of celiacs, is also afflicted with crohn's disease which comes with still more dietary anomalies that vary with each individual.

 

[Tengu]

Yes. Finding something she can eat is difficult for my friend.

And to her cost, has found tht some foods marked as `gluten free`. Arent.

 

[santaman2000]

Yes. Finding something she can eat is difficult for my friend.

And to her cost, has found tht some foods marked as `gluten free`. Arent.

You have to be careful of "hidden" gluten. That gluten which is in the ingredients other than the main item.

 

[Janne]

gluten intolerance, IBS, Irritable stomach, lactose intolerance, diverticulosis.

If you have one, you seem to be more likely to have one more is what my Gastrointestinal doc told me. In any combination.

Fad eating is nutritionally incredibly bad.

 

[Toddy]

Neither vegetarian or vegan diet is a fad though. Both have been known and successfully practiced for thousands of years.

Fad's are the banana diet, or the so called 'paleo' diet.

On that note though,

"Paleoanthropologist Briana Pobiner with the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History focuses her research on the evolution of meat-eating in humans. She says,

“The meat-eating that we do, or that our ancestors did even back to the earliest time we were eating meat, is culturally mediated. You need some kind of processing technology in order to eat meat, and there’s an amazing amount of social diversity in the way that meat is used, cooked and eaten in the modern world. So I don’t necessarily think we are hardwired to eat meat, but it is an important part of our evolutionary history.”

And the man himself, Dr. Richard Leakey states:

“You can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand… We wouldn't have been able to deal with food sources that required those large canines”

And Hillary Maywell of National Geographic posits that:

“Some early humans may have started eating meat as a way to survive within their own ecological niche.” "

http://bitesizevegan.com/vegan-lifestyle-2/vegans-in-ancient-times-the-history-of-veganism-part-one/

Food for thought
M

 

[Janne]

Our digestive system, including teeth, is of an omnivore.
The earliest hominids had very similar teeth to us, so probably omnivores too. Our closest cousins in the ape family are omnivores, even many of the more distant ones are that too.


We did not develop teeth and digestive systems that are good for eating meat recently.
Apes hunt, and have no problem getting though skin and eating the meat.

Today it is not a great problem being a vegan. Being a healthy vegan is more difficult than being an healthy omni. But fairly easy.
100 years ago? Impossible in large parts of the world.

 

[Prophecy]

There is nothing we can get from meat that we can't get from plants. After all, that's where the meat got it from in the first place.

Experts at the top have already done the science for us fortunately, so that we don't have to!

The only thing needing supplemented if vegans don't get it from fortified foods or dirty veg, is B12.

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.

Dietitians of Canada: A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.

The British National Health Service: With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

The British Nutrition Foundation: A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

The Dietitians Association of Australia: Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

The United States Department of Agriculture: Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.

The National Health and Medical Research Council: Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.

The Mayo Clinic: A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.

The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada: Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.

Harvard Medical School: Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

Here's the summary of the largest nutritional study ever completed - The China Study - which took decades to carry out.

Researchers found that diseases more common in Western countries clustered together. Data analyses led them to conclude that these diseases might be attributed to nutritional extravagance, while those illnesses more common in poorer areas of the world were likely owing to nutritional inadequacy and poor sanitation. Other findings highlighted distinctions in disease outcomes relative to intakes of plant vs. animal-based foods. After detailed analyses, the consistency of these results led researchers to conclude that overall, the closer people came to an all plant-based diet, the lower their risk for chronic disease.

 

[Janne]

Yes, but most nutrients are more concentrated in meat.

Well planned. Good planning.
That is the trick to a healthy vegan diet!

You need to be more aware of nutrition as a vegan.

Children that grow need far more of certain (most) nutrients, including proteins, per kilo body weight, than an adult.
Hence my recommendation earlier that a parent that wishes to bring up a child from early on should consult a specialist nutritionalist.