Vegan advice

[Robson Valley]

The major mistake is in the second sentence. Animals do not derive all of their fully formed nutrients from plants.
Otherwise, they would look and act like plants. We both know that isn't true. Don't even even think that way. Carnivores could not exist.

It is a simple fact of biochemistry that humans cannot synthesize several of the 20 common amino acids needed in human proteins.
How about Phenylalanine, if you need an example.

I don't doubt that if you work hard enough at it, you can scare up a complete diet from plants.
You may find that your Respiration (and some Net Production) exceeds your Gross Production.
Thus you do have a complete diet as you slowly starve to death.

 

[santaman2000]

Interesting reading Prophecy. Some of it is a bit off from what I had gleaned elsewhere. Mainly I'm thinking of the admonishment in the USDA's paragraph that vegetarians need to concentrate on iron (among the other things) As I remember iron is relatively abundant in green leafy vegetable so I'd have thought it wouldn't be much of a problem?

 

[santaman2000]

Neither vegetarian or vegan diet is a fad though. Both have been known and successfully practiced for thousands of years.

Fad's are the banana diet, or the so called 'paleo' diet.......

........“The meat-eating that we do, or that our ancestors did even back to the earliest time we were eating meat, is culturally mediated. You need some kind of processing technology in order to eat meat,.......

......“You can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand… We wouldn't have been able to deal with food sources that required those large canines”.......

Look back at my first post about early man eating bugs and worms (before we sidetracked to seafood and shellfish) Bugs and worms are pretty soft and easy to chew. No need to process it at all. I also believe (like Janne) that our earliest ancester's diets were much the same as our closest relatives today; and they ALL eat meat.

As to whether a vegetarian diet is a fad or not, I perceive it's highly dependent on the individual.

-Some take it up as a way to improve their health. Is that a fad? It kinda depends on how they came to the conclusion that it's healthier: Are they deciding after real research and making the commitment to follow thorough? Or are they trying it on a whim because their peers are doing it?

-Some do it for religious reasons. Is that a fad? Again it depends. Are these their true moral beliefs according to a deeply held faith? Or are they (again) just following their friends trends?

-Some become vegetarians simply because they don't like meat. I expect this is the rarest reason, but I seriously doubt there's any semblance of a fad among these practicioners.

 

[Robson Valley]

Hindsight from decades of teaching biochemistry tells me only this:
Just about all nutrients are bulk in the landscape.
What you can't obtain in bulk and what you cannot store to any appreciable degree
are the vitamins. Under stress, you will even excrete those you do need.

In perspective, you will find that vitamins are the actual functional chunks of most enzymes.
Think of vitamins as the tips of screwdrivers (the protein enzyme parts are the bulk handles).
Lacking the tip, the screwdriver has no particular function.

The result is that your metabolism goes haywire as one function after another
just never gets done for lack of particular vitamins.

 

[Prophecy]

Yes, but most nutrients are more concentrated in meat.

Well planned. Good planning.
That is the trick to a healthy vegan diet!

You need to be more aware of nutrition as a vegan.

Children that grow need far more of certain (most) nutrients, including proteins, per kilo body weight, than an adult.
Hence my recommendation earlier that a parent that wishes to bring up a child from early on should consult a specialist nutritionalist.

Are they more concentrated? Any sources? I had never thought of that before so it's a fair point if it's true. But it still doesn't take anything away from a vegan diet, which is proven to be safe and healthy for humans of all ages.

Of course it needs to be looked at more closely, but I see that as one of the best things about it. When I ate meat I didn't pay particularly close attention to my diet but with veganism your attention is naturally more honed regarding what you eat.

I posted my last post with all the information from health associations, in an attempt to break down some of the myths and stigma surrounding veganism. Most people, in my personal experience, don't think it's possible to serve all a child's needs through a vegan diet but the science says of course we can.

Lastly I'll say that removing meat from your diet also removes one of the biggest causes to the biggest killers throughout the West. Heart disease, lung disease, diabetes, various cancers etc. You have the chance to literally live longer just by not eating meat. Providing you don't eat too many oreos of course!

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[Prophecy]

Interesting reading Prophecy. Some of it is a bit off from what I had gleaned elsewhere. Mainly I'm thinking of the admonishment in the USDA's paragraph that vegetarians need to concentrate on iron (among the other things) As I remember iron is relatively abundant in green leafy vegetable so I'd have thought it wouldn't be much of a problem?

I have got my blood tests done each year for the past two years after being vegan for 4. The first year showed very high iron levels, and this year's showed lower but above average iron levels. When I show the results to my doctor, he is always pleasantly surprised. Iron is no problem at all.

What does concern me is B12 as it has shot way down in the past year in my blood, without supplements which I was taking the year before. An easy fix is to drink fortified milk, eat nutritional yeast, or take a pill each day. I take a pill for that and also my Vitamin D3 levels, which everyone in the northern hemisphere is advised.

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[Prophecy]

I don't doubt that if you work hard enough at it, you can scare up a complete diet from plants.
You may find that your Respiration (and some Net Production) exceeds your Gross Production.
Thus you do have a complete diet as you slowly starve to death.

You don't have to work very hard. Instead of reaching for cow milk you just grab a rice/almond/coconut/soy/oat milk. Instead of buying meat burgers you can just grab a soy/tofu/lentil burger instead. And ensure you are eating lots of various vegetables and some fruit. It takes maybe a month to figure out what you need to cover all bases but then you're set and it's as easy as a meat-inclusive diet.

And as far as any concerns of getting enough calories go; most people would like to lose a few kgs. If you don't then you can eat more. Same as a meat-inclusive diet.

It's really easy!

 

[Prophecy]

The major mistake is in the second sentence. Animals do not derive all of their fully formed nutrients from plants.
Otherwise, they would look and act like plants. We both know that isn't true. Don't even even think that way. Carnivores could not exist.

Sorry, I've just caught this.

Some of the world's biggest (in size) animals are vegan. Rhinos, horses, deer, hippo, elephants, gorilllas (almost).

I hope I've interpreted your second part correctly - eating only plants does not cause a being to turn into a plant.

Plants are where cows get their nutrition from. In turn, you eat their flesh and then consume that nutrition. But you don't need that middle man and can go direct to the primary source if you like.

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[Toddy]

All those claims that meat is complete are mince (pun intended) it might well be complete, for a cow, but unless we can digest it, then no chance of us getting all the nutrients from it, and just as vegetables boiled to mush lose to the cooking water, so does meat lose out to the curing, butchering and cooking processes. Meat would be complete if folks ate the brains, the guts, etc., as do the carnivores out there. Not many humans do, and the meat is simply a 'flavouring' in their meals.
Besides, we don't have the gut of the carnivores anyway, we do have the dentition and gut of the 'choice' eaters, and humanity when it's not overpopulating and wiping out habitats, is very good at finding ways to get hold of the bits it chooses to eat.

At the end of the day it's the choice that matters.
I choose not to eat meat. I honestly cannot conceive of ever thinking to pick up a grasshopper, or worm or a slug or a shellfish and think, "I'll eat that". I can't imagine what thought processes ever thought of those as food
I know that humans have and do eat them, but it does not compute, iimmc. Most humans don't eat them.
Healthy choice doesn't need meat, and I firmly suspect most meat eaters are lacking more than vegetarians/vegans do.

Anyway, pretty much the same with meat, tbh.
Milk I can see, our own babies thrive on our milk (and yes, breast fed babies can and do get fat on only Mum's milk) I am aware of the horrors of the dairy industry though, but I also know that stressed cows don't give as much milk, so farmers have to deal with that. I buy local on dairy produce.

I take a vitaminD supplement; I live in central Scotland, we have literally seen the Sun for less than a handful of hours since the New Year. That's pretty normal here, it's overcast and even though we are fair skinned in the main, we wear clothes and we don't work outdoors every hour of daylight now. Boost your VitaminD and the entire world seems a happier place. B vitamins I manage in my diet.

I've been vegetarian for most of my life, and I am a little fat lady these days and my diet is really varied. Just that in more recent years my lack of exercise overtook my calorific intake.
Now however, the RA has gone, gone into full remission they tell me and I am moving easily again, so we'll see.
Other than RA, my blood work shows everything else as very healthy, and I really don't stress on the diet front. I eat pretty much as I advised in the child rearing post.
It's easy.


M

 

[Prophecy]

Yes, the thought of eating a slug is so far removed from us that I'm sure people would literally rather die than eating them. Even the thoughts of it gives me the shivers. But when needs must!

Nature gave us milk to consume as infants because it's calorie-dense and easy to consume. It quite literally fattens up infants and speeds their growth to help get them through the most vulnerable period of their lives. That's its 'purpose' I suppose you could say. When I heard that, and thought about it, it really made me question if it is meant to be drank by me as an adult. Some people still remember those old adverts telling us it's good for us and its a good source of calcium, but of course we can get that from plants too. I'm just stating because lots of people will be surprised to hear it!

 

[Prophecy]

Healthy choice doesn't need meat, and I firmly suspect most meat eaters are lacking more than vegetarians/vegans do.

I share your suspicions but I would broaden it to pretty much the vast majority of the population. In the UK you can ask your local GP for blood tests to cover anything you would like. You can hand them a list of things you want checked, and if you have a good reason for it they'll approve it. I think everyone should get their blood work done at least every 2 years because things can change rather quickly.

Vit D is a big one. How many of us know if we're low on Vit D levels? I had no idea and my Doctor was surprised when he saw how low mine was (this is Sardegna). Within a couple of weeks of taking a tablet every day I felt a substantial change in mood levels and for the last two years it's like I've had a weight lifted off my shoulders in terms of my general mood and outlook. Imagine how much happier/healthier some people could be by simply checking their blood and tweeking their diet accordingly.

 

[Janne]

Interesting thread, lots of valuable views and points!

Vitamin D is a problem for many people living in northern N. America and Europe. Even if you go out every day, there is just not enough dun we can catch. Of course, the darker your skin, the less Vit D producion in weak sun.

 

[Janne]

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1559827616682933

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.short

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/76/1/100.short


Yes, a well researched and executed vegan diet is as least as healthy as an omnivorous, but much research show that on average vegans do NOT get the needed nutrients.which the average omnivore gets.

It is important to look into research done by scientific institutions, not pseudo research done my biased organisations.

Your list was interesting, Prophecy, I would love to read the research.

The last research I would maybe not trust so much, if it is a Chinese study, they tend to be studies with an agenda to the result.

These is absolutely no evidence that Vegans or Vegetarians live longer and are healthier.

The last decades there have been tons of advice which diet is the healthiest, I think that the latest favourite is the Mediterrean Diet?
Unfortunately nobody has explained why the average expected life span in the countries where this diet is eaten is so much shorter than in Scandinavia.

There is more to life and quality of life than diet.

 

[Prophecy]

But that's just a small sample size in Sweden.

You have to look at the bigger picture, and peer reviewed or refereed research.

I won't clog the thread with a wall of links to peer reviewed clinical studies and their quoted conclusions, so this one link to some of the existing studies will have to do. All from the National Institute of Health. Just in case you want to look into it more.

https://www.quora.com/What-peer-rev...ientific-studies-to-verify-some-of-the-claims

Various large scale clinical, peer-reviewed studies show that vegetarian and vegan diets are healthier than a meat-inclusive diet as the risk of the 'big 15' killers are lessened, and can even be reversed.

Have you heard of the China Study?

It took 20 years to carry out with hundreds of subjects; the biggest nutritional study ever completed. It concludes:

'There are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants'

and

'People who ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease. People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest'

The study was completed principally by Americans.

Don't shoot the messenger!



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[Prophecy]

Here's the thing though... And I know I'm veering off-subject here, but even if all those benefits to a vegan diet over a meat-inclusive diet didn't exist, we still have the choice whether we want to eat meat or not. We murder trillions of sentient animals per year unnecessary. Plus it's contributing hugely to environmental problems.

So if we don't need to eat meat, we must ask ourselves, why do we, and is satisfying our taste buds justification for it?

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[Broch]

The last research I would maybe not trust so much, if it is a Chinese study, they tend to be studies with an agenda to the result.

And British, European, Scandinavian, American government funded research isn't? sorry but I can't agree with the generality of that statement. The Chinese were writing medical studies up before the Europeans could write.

I have enjoyed the discussion of the thread a great deal but it leaves me wondering how on earth Homo sapiens has survived at all if his diet had to be so exact! Yes, I understand about the role of evolution etc. but man has thrived in all parts of the world where their diet will have varied greatly. It's interesting to think that man lived off the seasons so, at different times of the year, they did not have access to all the foodstuffs that were probably necessary for healthy living according to modern theory. Even when we learnt to preserve food our choice would have been limited.

It's my understanding, though I'm happy to be corrected, that many full carnivores have to eat the stomach contents of their prey to get the full range of nutrients - or did I dream I'd read that?

 

[Tengu]

I have decided to become a Rat.

That way I can eat everything, and manufacture my own vit C.

 

[Prophecy]

And British, European, Scandinavian, American government funded research isn't? sorry but I can't agree with the generality of that statement. The Chinese were writing medical studies up before the Europeans could write.

I have enjoyed the discussion of the thread a great deal but it leaves me wondering how on earth Homo sapiens has survived at all if his diet had to be so exact! Yes, I understand about the role of evolution etc. but man has thrived in all parts of the world where their diet will have varied greatly. It's interesting to think that man lived off the seasons so, at different times of the year, they did not have access to all the foodstuffs that were probably necessary for healthy living according to modern theory. Even when we learnt to preserve food our choice would have been limited.

It's my understanding, though I'm happy to be corrected, that many full carnivores have to eat the stomach contents of their prey to get the full range of nutrients - or did I dream I'd read that?

That's correct; we'd need to eat the brains, eyeballs, stomach etc. But not many people do. Also funny how dogs and other animals closer to that of a carnivorous anatomy salivate just at the mere sight of some offal whereas most humans are repulsed.

Here's another thought; we are essentially primates, and we were primates for much more time than we have been homoerectus. It was only when we evolved to the latter we began eating meat to survive.

And on your point that it's a wonder how we made it this far on a diet that needs such precision, I suppose the ones that didn't get it right died out and didn't pass on their genes. We come from the ones that made it!

Aside from that I suppose humans are highly adaptable and even someone with an important nutrient deficiency can go years, maybe decades, without it showing itself.

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[Janne]

Correct, many if not most full carnivores eat the ‘insides’ furst. Liver, kidneys, lungs. Stomach.
Most carnivores can synthetise Vit C. Humans can not. Mankind that survives (traditionally) on meat and no veg ( inuit, some siberian tribes) eat the stomach content of seals, reindeer and such.

Remember, China came to be around 200 BC, the area consisted of several ( 7? 8? ) separate states and it is wrong to think of China as a unitary culture before that. It did break up again, and got unified by the Mongols. China is not “one” country, and has not ‘one” culture. China is not to dissimar to Europe, in fact. Different languages, cultures, people.

Chinese medical studies before Europeans could write?
Writing was invented around 3500 BC in todays Iraq region.
(Possibly) independent invention in todays Egypt around 3000 BC and in the China region 1000 BC.
So no, I do not think so!

Most studies and research today are very well checked by critical researchers all over the world, and false ot faulty research is discovered pretty quickly.
Also, remember, our Western governments change politically, and the Chinese has not since 1949.

 

[Janne]

You eat sausages? Frankfurters? Pate? Black pudding? White pudding?
Maybe even Haggis?