Vegan advice

[Prophecy]

You eat sausages? Frankfurters? Pate? Black pudding? White pudding?
Maybe even Haggis?

I'd say most people don't eat those things, with the exception of sausages. Do supermarket sausages really contain offal? I would think that could be sold for much more in butchers or meat counters rather than wasted in Denny sausages.

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[santaman2000]

I'm not aware of any studies or reputable dieticians claiming that meat is "more complete" than vegetables. Not on the whole anyway. I suspect those who are making such claims re thinking solely about proteins. The oft referenced example being how high beans are in protein but that it's an incomplete protein by itself (beans alone don't contain all nine essential amino acids like meat does) That said, you can cure that by simply eating a variety of vegetables.

Toddy said our guts aren't evolved for meat? I beg to differ there. Herbivores have comparatively larger guts by several times. It's necessary to accommodate the much larger amounts of food they need to ingest. On that subject, Prophecy mentioned that all the larger animals are herbivores: horses, elephants, etc. (I'll circle back to gorillas in a moment) While that's true it's also true that those animals spend almost their entire wakeful life simply eating to meet their intake requirements. Now; back to gorillas. Everything I've seen or read about them indicates that they eat the same bugs and insects as most other primates. Which brings me back to that bugs and grubs subject.

You also said that eating such things would be unthinkable to most people? Possibly to modern man, but the indigenous peoples of our desert Southwest depended on them as food source so strongly that the settlers of European origin form the East referred to them as "diggers" because they were almost always digging for said insects and grubs. My earlier posts about shellfish (to include things such as shrimp, crabs, lobster, etc.) wasn't meant to argue the food value of those creatures so much as it was intended to show that even today modern peoples still have no compunction about eating bugs. Add escargot, oysters, and conch and it becomes clear that they also have no problem eating slugs.

As to the question about the morality of killing animals for food I'd counter that modern agriculture kills entire species.

 

[Prophecy]

I'm not aware of any studies or reputable dieticians claiming that meat is "more complete" than vegetables. Not on the whole anyway. I suspect those who are making such claims re thinking solely about proteins. The oft referenced example being how high beans are in protein but that it's an incomplete protein by itself (beans alone don't contain all nine essential amino acids like meat does) That said, you can cure that by simply eating a variety of vegetables.

Toddy said our guts aren't evolved for meat? I beg to differ there. Herbivores have comparatively larger guts by several times. It's necessary to accommodate the much larger amounts of food they need to ingest. On that subject, Prophecy mentioned that all the larger animals are herbivores: horses, elephants, etc. (I'll circle back to gorillas in a moment) While that's true it's also true that those animals spend almost their entire wakeful life simply eating to meet their intake requirements. Now; back to gorillas. Everything I've seen or read about them indicates that they eat the same bugs and insects as most other primates. Which brings me back to that bugs and grubs subject.

You also said that eating such things would be unthinkable to most people? Possibly to modern man, but the indigenous peoples of our desert Southwest depended on them as food source so strongly that the settlers of European origin form the East referred to them as "diggers" because they were almost always digging for said insects and grubs. My earlier posts about shellfish (to include things such as shrimp, crabs, lobster, etc.) wasn't meant to argue the food value of those creatures so much as it was intended to show that even today modern peoples still have no compunction about eating bugs. Add escargot, oysters, and conch and it becomes clear that they also have no problem eating slugs.

As to the question about the morality of killing animals for food I'd counter that modern agriculture kills entire species.

Oh yeh for sure, I know it's practiced in many parts of the world. We're in such a privileged position that we don't need to eat bugs.

Our anatomy is not adapted to eating raw meat like carnivorous animals. We don't have the digestive enzymes or the short tract suited for it.

Yes agriculture is killing lots of things, but what do you think cows and other animals that we eat, eat? Much more than us! So if we cut them out of the equation we'd at least only be killing the animals from directly harvesting crops.

Remember that veganism isn't eradicating harm to animals, it's realistically minimalising harm to animals where possible.

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[santaman2000]

I'd say most people don't eat those things, with the exception of sausages. Do supermarket sausages really contain offal? I would think that could be sold for much more in butchers or meat counters rather than wasted in Denny sausages.

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Modern hot dogs contain no offal. Haven't done for decades. Frankly, offal is just too expensive (yeah, there's a thriving market for organ meat on its own as you said) Plus modern hot dog production is such a huge operation that the meat needed is bought on contracts for several tons at a time.

Likewise with sausage; here at least. British sausage might be a different story. That's not meant to be a dig at your quality control, but a nod to differing tastes and what I believe is a better availability of small, local sausage makers there.

 

[Prophecy]

Modern hot dogs contain no offal. Haven't done for decades. Frankly, offal is just too expensive (yeah, there's a thriving market for organ meat on its own as you said) Plus modern hot dog production is such a huge operation that the meat needed is bought on contracts for several tons at a time.

Likewise with sausage; here at least. British sausage might be a different story. That's not meant to be a dig at your quality control, but a nod to differing tastes and what I believe is a better availability of small, local sausage makers there.

Oh I'm from Belfast I'm just pretending to be an Italian. Quality control here may be offal but I wouldn't know tbh. I'll let myself out...

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[santaman2000]

Oh yeh for sure, I know it's practiced in many parts of the world. We're in such a privileged position that we don't need to eat bugs.

Our anatomy is not adapted to eating raw meat like carnivorous animals. We don't have the digestive enzymes or the short tract suited for it.

Yes agriculture is killing lots of things, but what do you think cows and other animals that we eat, eat? Much more than us! So if we cut them out of the equation we'd at least only be killing the animals from directly harvesting crops.

Remember that veganism isn't eradicating harm to animals, it's realistically minimalising harm to animals where possible.

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Eh? I eat raw meat frequently. I love raw steak.

The bit about modern agriculture is that a pasture (for cows as you mentioned) supports several dozen species in addition to the cows (particularly the wild pastures of natural open range) and leaves open natural migration routes, whereas a field of crops actively excludes all other species of plant and animal life.

 

[Janne]

I'd say most people don't eat those things, with the exception of sausages. Do supermarket sausages really contain offal? I would think that could be sold for much more in butchers or meat counters rather than wasted in Denny sausages.

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Yes they do. Gives a flavour too.
Google it.

Also many processed meats contain proteins extracted from bone. Gelatine from hooves and hides.
Some years ago they wrote about pink slime.

It is correct to use the animal 100%, no waste.

Modern people are disgusted by the dea of eating offal. I do not know why.
They should in that case be more disgusted to eat an animal we kill.

Murder? No, kill. Murder is a legal term. Illegal killing.

Vegetarian? Eating milk products? Fine. I eat mostly vegetarian dishes. But I know that in a natural husbandry, for a cow to produce milk she needs to give birth to a calf. Calf needs to be given milk replacement. Calf needs to be killed sooner (veal) or later (beef) and eaten.

So technically, even a vegetarian needs animals to be killed.

 

[santaman2000]

......Chinese medical studies before Europeans could write?
Writing was invented around 3500 BC in todays Iraq region.
(Possibly) independent invention in todays Egypt around 3000 BC and in the China region 1000 BC.
So no, I do not think so!....

Neither Iraq nor Egypt are European. When writing appeared there has no bearing on a comparison between China and Europe.

 

[Janne]

Neither Iraq nor Egypt are European. When writing appeared there has no bearing on a comparison between China and Europe.

True.
Indications show that there was writing in Europe 3500 BC .
Linear B tablets found in Greece.


https://phys.org/news/2011-04-oldest-evidence-europe.html

A couple of millenia before the people living in todays China.

 

[Toddy]

Well, I don't eat it, but I bought both black pudding and haggis today. My husband likes both. It's considered good food in the UK.
Black pudding is a favourite part of breakfast for many, and haggis is a meal in itself really. I know folks who take both a real haggis and a vegetarian (surprisingly good and tasty) too when they are camping; makes it a simple meat and veg dinner

Black pudding is blood pudding, and haggis is made from the 'lights' of the animal, the lungs, heart and liver, and any spare bits that could me easily minced up that would cook quickly when tied into the stomach and boiled. Classic medieval one pot cookery, but might well be a lot older. A stomach bag, or the intestines washed and stuffed full of finely prepared meat (that's sausages!) is easy to cook.

Mechanically recovered meat is commonplace in the food chain, though a bit less so in the UK since the advent of the BSE crisis. Funnily enough ours played out in full public scrutiny, other countries quietly kept their heads down

When my stomach ulcerated (anti RA tablets did a hellish number on my digestive system :/ thankfully all healed ) the gastroenterologist made comment that I'd be fine even if I did need antacids lifelong, since I was vegetarian. Stomach acid helps break down meat, kills pathogens, etc., but most meat still ends up just feeding the gut bacteria since people don't fully digest it, and it was unlikely therefore to cause me any issues since I didn't eat it anyway.

M

 

[Robson Valley]

I'm happy to be an omnivore. I like Haggis, too.
Feeling well enough today to maybe make/bake some bready thing.
Then, a serious feed of liver with onions and bacon for supper.
What's interesting is that people's sense of taste varies so much.
My brother would rather vomit than eat liver.

 

[Janne]

So would most people.

None of my family eat offal. Parents used to, as WW2 made them eat anything, but not since then.
I enjoy it all, except the squeal!

 

[Toddy]

On that note; did you know that the most useful animal is the pig ?
Every bit of it is useful, even it's last squeak as it dies.
They catch it in a wee glass bubble, and that's what's in spirit levels.

Well, that's what my Dad told an infant me who was pestering him while he was building a boat.
A spirit level is the Pig's Squeak.

M

 

[Broch]

The only offal I cannot abide is tripe. My nain used to cook it when I was a nipper and it made the whole house smell like a sewer
At one of our Burn's nights years ago I made a vegetarian version of haggis - it was so successful a number of the carnivores had some as well

 

[Tengu]

Sausage, black pudding, haggis...yes please.

I regard those as highly desirable.

 

[Prophecy]

Eh? I eat raw meat frequently. I love raw steak.

The bit about modern agriculture is that a pasture (for cows as you mentioned) supports several dozen species in addition to the cows (particularly the wild pastures of natural open range) and leaves open natural migration routes, whereas a field of crops actively excludes all other species of plant and animal life.

But other meat if eaten raw comes with serious health risks and even death. We are not built to eat meat raw.

Studies show that growing food for animals uses much more land, energy and water than growing food than that compared to land used for a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Cows eat a hell of a lot.

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[Prophecy]

Murder? No, kill. Murder is a legal term. Illegal killing.

I did Google the sausage thing and it said we don't use offal in them but hey who knows.

Yeh if you broaden that definition of murder to a sentient being then you could say murder. I call it murder you call it killing I suppose. Same thing in my mind.

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[Janne]

You have a morality of a Buddhist!
Nothing wrong in that.

But if you see the killing of an animal ‘murder’ then we that eat meat and offal are ‘murderers’ ?

Research has shown that plants react to outside stimulus. I have read reports that show that trees show changes if a tree nearby is damaged.
Sentient?

 

[Janne]

We have diverted well from the thread, but I think it is all very interesting. I hope that the OP thinks the same!

 

[Prophecy]

You have a morality of a Buddhist!
Nothing wrong in that.

But if you see the killing of an animal ‘murder’ then we that eat meat and offal are ‘murderers’ ?

Research has shown that plants react to outside stimulus. I have read reports that show that trees show changes if a tree nearby is damaged.
Sentient?

I suppose morality in terms of being a vegan is only one aspect of morality. But there are millions of vegans out there and it's on the rise. I'm sure there's more on this board.

The thing is, I think the vast majority of us are good people. I think you are probably a really moral person, but you've just never really thought about the other side of the coin. I remember thinking vegans were total weirdos and I would be really defensive about eating meat if challenged. I have been through all of the arguments I realise now that I was dealing with new ideas that were conflicting with everything I had ever been made to believe. It's easier just to shut them out. Cognitive dissonance.

But it's easy. We have two choices. Eat meat which is filled with violence, pain, suffering, enslavement and murder/killing, and with that comes the increased risk of heart disease and cancers etc.

The other choice is simply don't eat meat. People think it's so radical and so difficult to do but it's literally as easy as googling stuff, and moving your hand over to the soy milk in the supermarket rather than the cow milk. It's the loving alternative, and it can be cheaper and healthier. The food is amazing.

I don't blame non-vegans at all for not getting it. We've been programmed to be 'specieist' (ie we'd never kill a dog but chickens are fine) since a young age. There is an utterly fantastic, short video by Melanie Joy that I've linked below that I would urge anyone and everyone to watch. It's essentially the science behind why we do eat cows but we care for our dogs.

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