To ventile or not to ventile - advice needed
- Thread starter Kerne
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Pertex was invented as a synthetic version of Ventile and originally intended as a tent fabric
Strange how things are interconected!
I was just emphasising that the idea that he dissed Ventile was incorrect not saying that you said .... oh you get me now surely
I know this is a bot off topic from the original question, and I'm sorry to hijack the thread, but could you guys tell me what a typical backpacking clothing set up is in the UK? From the comments I am reading, the approach to clothing seems to be very different between what I am reading here and what I am used to in the US. Maybe that is what is causing the disputes between different members.
In the US, we typically wear several layers. You have a base layer which is supposed to wick the moisture. There is an even split between synthetics and wool as materials for the layer. On top of that you have one or more insulation layers, which are supposed to allow moisture to pass through, but retain heat and stop the wind. Common materials are hardened fleece (or fleece with a wind shirt) and to a lesser degree because of the weight, wool. On top of that you then have some type of rain protection. If you do not expect rain, but rather high winds, you may bring some type of soft shell. That is what I am used to. For 90% of the time, your rain gear is kept in your pack. In fact, when moving, most of your insulation layers are kept in your pack as well.
From the posts above it seems that people are wearing all of their layers all the time. Is that something common? What is the thinking behind it? Why would one wear a rain shell when it is dry out? Seems to me like the approach is different, maybe explaining the difference in clothing. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
In the US, we typically wear several layers. You have a base layer which is supposed to wick the moisture. There is an even split between synthetics and wool as materials for the layer. On top of that you have one or more insulation layers, which are supposed to allow moisture to pass through, but retain heat and stop the wind. Common materials are hardened fleece (or fleece with a wind shirt) and to a lesser degree because of the weight, wool. On top of that you then have some type of rain protection. If you do not expect rain, but rather high winds, you may bring some type of soft shell. That is what I am used to. For 90% of the time, your rain gear is kept in your pack. In fact, when moving, most of your insulation layers are kept in your pack as well.
From the posts above it seems that people are wearing all of their layers all the time. Is that something common? What is the thinking behind it? Why would one wear a rain shell when it is dry out? Seems to me like the approach is different, maybe explaining the difference in clothing. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
i'll stick to my woolly jumper soaked in engine grease i reckon, keeps me warm, keeps me dry, the grease keeps my skin from drying out, i smell like an engineers armpit so don't have to worry about sharing a tent. greasier than a friday night chip paper! lol.
i don't think the american approach discussed above differs to be honest, and each to his own, i like both man made materials and natural. i think they both have uses and the key to the argument is really having the acumen to use the right one and not get caught out.
i don't think the american approach discussed above differs to be honest, and each to his own, i like both man made materials and natural. i think they both have uses and the key to the argument is really having the acumen to use the right one and not get caught out.
Good stuff pertex! Particularly, as said above, when allied to fibre-pile. A buffalo shirt, or snugpack/montane equivalents, will get wet much quicker than a ventile jacket, but will keep you warm if you keep moving, and dry themselves out when the rain stops. With ventile - if out in the rain long enough, it turned into a soggy lump that weighed a ton and chilled you through. In either case, it makes sense to take a waterproof outer, but if you forgot one, I'd always prefer to be in a pertex/pile jacket/smock.
It is always raining here so you need to wear your outer layers most of the time
If that is the case, seems like Ventile would be a though choice to deal with. After a few days of rain it must weight a lot. It also loses its breathability when wet. I know Goretex and eVent do as well, but at leas they do not wet through nearly as much, and weigh a lot less. What is the upside? I understand that it is breathable when dry, but if you are in the rain most of the time, seems like that benefit is negated. I'm honestly asking for information here. This is the first time I encounter this, even in other wet areas like certain parts of the US.
i think the sheer multitude of clothing options allows us britishers to exploit each day to its fullest, generally speaking you can get a very varied mix of weather and it varies the clothing needed a lot. in some places you can get blasted by the weather from each season in one day. i couldn't dream of going out into the hills with just a pair of walking trousers and a softshell. more kit is required when you have weather not climate, and that may be why we are seeing so many different opinions here.
in fact, i went out into the peak district on the second weekend in march, i took a waterproof coat and gloves, gaitors etc, my mate and i walked all day in 20 degrees c, and got sunburned. we walked all day in baselayers, the waterproofs stayed stowed. however, if the weather had been on form, we would have been correctly kitted out, and not dyed of hypothermia.
That makes perfect sense. That's similar to what I am used to here (not the weather variations, but the approach to clothing). I always have my rain gear with me. That being said, my rain gear compacts to an 8x4 inch bag and weight 12oz. I can't imagine carrying a Ventile coat in my pack over several days, let alone if it gets wet on one of those days.
Is it common for people to wear their rain gear when it is not raining? Do they wear it because it is hard to pack, or for some other reason?
So you stay dry unless it's raining...
Keep up the good work....
You got it all figured out don't ya. Maybe you should re-read the thread eh? Do you actually have a point or are you trying to flame me?
It is always raining here so you need to wear your outer layers most of the time
I think you need to realize that 'bushcrafters' are a distinct group from hill walkers in the uk there is a bit of cross. My experience is most folk hill walking will use a layering system of some sort along the lines you described with a hard shell layer on top if it's rains. It's also common to have a lightweight wind proof layer if your out on the tops something likes pertex if it rains you put on your waterproofs when it stops you take them off.
Ventile as a fabric was sitting in a bit of a backwater until the UK Bushcraft movement got going circa 2003 it's then seen a bit of a resurgence as a fabric. My view is its still not mainstream but is more common than it was...
I think Ventiles popularity can be ascribed to folk discussing it on forums, TV personalities wearing it from time to time etc...
Oh c'mon Johnboy,
We were wearing the likes of ventile when young here and liking it before discussions and tv personalities.
I couldn't tell what type of cotton i did wear when a boy but it was better than the nylon cagoules and later i found badged ventile better than 'tex type fabrics.
We were wearing the likes of ventile when young here and liking it before discussions and tv personalities.
I couldn't tell what type of cotton i did wear when a boy but it was better than the nylon cagoules and later i found badged ventile better than 'tex type fabrics.
i just use base layers, a micro fleece and a pertext windtop,it can all be stripped and and rebuilt into any configuration of dress required. then a waterproof in the bag. i do like my cotton windproof but doubt i'd wanna take 2 jackets anymore, can't bothered with the weight. people tend to wear the waterproof jacket a lot as an outer shell even in the dry, but not the matching trousers. all depends how your body performs when in an active and static state i suppose, i've found keela to be the best at condensation control and don't tend to use anything else like a smock or similar. i have tried the really packable small packlite stuff, but to be honest its not breathable enough for me, and i might as well not bother as i'm soaked inside anyway, so i've binned that idea.
ventile is good but its chink in the armour is if it gets wet it holds onto it more than a man made fibre will. so for a long yomp i'll stick to man-made, local stuff i'll go natural fibres.
ventile is good but its chink in the armour is if it gets wet it holds onto it more than a man made fibre will. so for a long yomp i'll stick to man-made, local stuff i'll go natural fibres.
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Absolutely you were no argument from me on that... It was used by folk before 'bushcraft' got popular in its current form. I used to go climbing with a guy who had a ventile jacket which was pretty ragged. You could buy different types of garments out of the survival aids catalogue and the CTC guys n gals used to use Green Sport jackets....
All of that however formed a small part of the UK market for waterproof outerwear once other fabrics such as Goretex + Sympatex etc came along from about the early to mid 80's. I haven't looked through all of the old catalogues but I reckon you'd struggle to find a Ventile Garment offered by the Mainstream UK manufacturers from the mid 80's. Most of the commercially produceed Ventile garments on offer today come from smaller manufacturers.
My point is Ventiles current popularity it's resurgence if you like is seemingly linked to the increase in the diverse range of activities that constitute UK Bushcraft... It's not a criticism just an observation... Reasonably what has fueled the increase in popularity of 'Bushcraft' in the UK.
Folk wear what they want and long may that continue. Ventile has some good points and some bad same same with breathable membrane fabrics.
Fabric of course is only half the garment you have to then create a pattern that works and add features that are useful and compliment the fabric you are going to use.
One of the main uses for 'rain gear' is to cut the wind and so stay warmer. In the U.K. and in far too many seasons climbing in the Alps, I find myself wearing a base layer and waterproof jacket; the reason is to avoid wearing a thicker fleece or jumper, keeping it dry for chillier nights. Although it does - or did - rain with monotonous regularity here, there are quite a few moments when it is just blowy and dry. In those conditions, I do like the single Ventile jacket I've got and, because it is so light and comfortable to wear, I do not often find myself carrying it. When it goes all unnecessary on me, then I break out Mr Gore's finest.
But that is just pootling around in the U.K.. If I'm off backpacking, then weight becomes a more telling issue and, like you, Ross, I tend towards synthetics, though not for my base layer - that's always wool.
There is no one system that works perfectly for everyone - you just find the one that suits your needs and budget. If you are active in a wide range of outdoor activities, the chances are you'll have a matching diverse range of garments that fulfil your requirements. In some way, shape or form, we all fall victim to the crafty marketing folk who will promise the earth to get you to part with your hard-earned cash and then tell you that there's an even better version for a different activity. Currently, I don't really understand the soft shell concept but I suppose you could argue that a Ventile garment is a bit like the retro version of the modern soft shell - it'll breathe O.K., turn most conditions but is not waterproof. It seems that Ventile is better suited to cold, dry conditions: Chris Bonington equipped his climbers with suits made of it in the early '70s - most notably, the south face of Annapurna trip in 1970 and the unsuccessful trip to the south-west face of Everest in '72. Three years later, when the latter route was successfully climbed, the team had suits of both Ventile and a relatively new stuff called Goretex.
You pays your money and makes your choice. Enjoy!
Well yeah - I have been on telly a couple of times... but mainly in Welsh soaps and in Lovejoy - I dont think you can realy call me a TV personality though
I would like to think that my contribution to the popularity of Ventile is more about the design work I have done (even my Btec OND final collection of "Resort Wear" was in Ventile - I got a distinction! - my double layer Ventile Motorcycle/mountain jacket was also well recieved by some) and the reviews I have written for the outdoor press.
I do not backpack anymore so I cannot realy talk about the current fashions there but when I go out on the hill or in the fields/woods I find that I wear my Ventile for the vast proportion of the time - it tends to either be fairly windy even if it is not raining and most of the rain I encounter is either drizzle or showers (unlike some I have the good sense to come in out of the rain - or is that the good fortune to be able to plan my days out with an eye to avoiding the worst of the downpours).
I find Ventile copes admirably with these conditions and if I encounter rain that overpowers the fabric then my poncho (which also serves as a lunch/emergency shelter) is deployed.
I have never found Ventile particularly heavy (but when I started backpacking the jacket I wore was neoprene proofed nylon and my tarp was rubberised canvas!) or bulky, I find it dries out well overnight near the fire and is so darned quiet and comfortable that I can realy enjoy wearing it. Ventile is easy to repair, lasts decades of abuse and is more breathable under most conditions than any "plastic fantastic" fabrics.
I will wear Gore etc (mainly for magazine review work) but always return to my Ventile for my own personal preference wear.
I have been wearing Goretex from the time it first apeared in the UK and compared to Ventile it seems pricey, fragile, uncomfortably sweaty and noisy - unless teamed with a multitude of other top spec fabrics and the lighter the version the nastier it seems to wear!
As to Pile and Pertex - I find it a superb combination but unless it is realy cold then it is just too much for me to wear. I have been using Buffalo gear since it came in 2 tone grey Pertex with a red pile lining
and Buffalo still use publicity photos of me wearing it while swimming in the Tivy Marshes during a major evaluation of the system.As part of my work relies upon being reasonably in the know on fabric developments in relation to the Outdoor Trade I try and keep up with new ideas - but I have yet to find a fabric that is not a host of compromises and for my Bushcrafting and most of my other outdoor activities (which range from woodland strolling to canoeing to moderate hill walking, birdwatching/wildlife observation, the odd bit of shooting, photography, cycling and more) I find Ventile to be the best of the bunch.
For the modern brand of backpacker then I can see that Ventile may be a bit heavy and bulky (in my backpacking day the packs were bigger, the loads heavier and the packers accepted this) and for exped work too, the natural fibre crew may be at a bit of a slight disadvantage weight/bulk wise ... but for general bushcraft then I still rate Ventile over all other fabrics!
Ventile is stil used by members of The Antarctic Survey, helicopter rescue crews and other pro users in preference to any modern fabrics ... so I would imagine that Scott would have chosen it for his kit even today
though he may have chosen lighter sleeping bags....
Well yeah - I have been on telly a couple of times... but mainly in Welsh soaps and in Lovejoy - I dont think you can realy call me a TV personality though
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Hey John, it would be good to see some pictures
