To ventile or not to ventile - advice needed
- Thread starter Kerne
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As Ventile was developped in WW2 how did Nansen or Scott etc get hold of samples to review - I thought I was good at getting preproduction samples of gear to test but that is extraordinary!
Thats why most would recommend a Swedish Cotton Smock. Similar windproofing and fire resistance but for £20-30 instead of a hundred or so.
Here is Nansen's description of the clothing worn in his book Across Greenland:
“With the exception of two tunics of reindeer skin...and a little coat lined with squirrel skin, which I took but rarely wore, we had no furs, but wore woolen things throughout. Next to our skin we had thin woolen shirts and drawers, then thick, rough jerseys, and then our outer garments, which consisted of a short coat, knickerbockers, and gaiters...In wind, snow, and rain, we generally wore outside our other clothes a light suit of some thin, brown, canvas like stuff. This was reputed completely waterproof, but it turned out to be nothing of the kind. In wind and snow however, it did excellent service.”
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[/FONT]The description of the material sounds identical to Ventile. I'm sure we can call it other names, but at the end of the day it is tightly woven cotton.
As far as personal experience, I find Ventile and other cotton top layers to be the lowest return for the value ($) from the materials we have on the market today. It provides good wind protection and is durable, but I find it not to be practical for any long distance backwoods travel. It does not offer sufficient rain protection, so you are forced to carry other rain protection anyway. It is breathable when dry, but when wet is as breathable as a plastic bag-the time when you presumably need it the most. My biggest problem however is that assuming you are not just out for a walk in the woods, you will have to remove those top layers for most of the trip. When hiking and climbing, I am almost down to my base layers. This means that all the other clothing has to go in my pack. The size and weight of Ventile, or whatever the permutation of the day happens to be is just too heavy and hard to compact to be comfortably carried. I find that a wool shirt offers sufficient wind protection so that a cotton cover is not required, and for when there is rain or snow, I have a very light, highly compactable synthetic shell. It spends most of the time in my backpack, and I paid $45 for both the jacket and the pants. I know, I know, the fire will get you if you are not wearing wool or cotton. That has not been my experience. Here I am wearing fleece next to the fire:
Plenty of sparks landed on me, none of them melted my clothing.
My point is, Ventile, Gaberdine, etc, (Scott called it Burberry) is one of the most overpriced materials on the market. If you are paying $300 for a piece of clothing, there is a wide range of options. In some very limited circumstances, Ventile might be a great choice, for the rest though...
But, ultimately, I doubt any of this will matter. We wear what we wear for numerous reasons, performance is usually not on top of the list. This is just my opinion anyway. As far as first hand sources, Scott's journals also have a few references about this tightly woven cotton material, but I'm having a hard time finding them right now.
“With the exception of two tunics of reindeer skin...and a little coat lined with squirrel skin, which I took but rarely wore, we had no furs, but wore woolen things throughout. Next to our skin we had thin woolen shirts and drawers, then thick, rough jerseys, and then our outer garments, which consisted of a short coat, knickerbockers, and gaiters...In wind, snow, and rain, we generally wore outside our other clothes a light suit of some thin, brown, canvas like stuff. This was reputed completely waterproof, but it turned out to be nothing of the kind. In wind and snow however, it did excellent service.”
[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]
[/FONT]The description of the material sounds identical to Ventile. I'm sure we can call it other names, but at the end of the day it is tightly woven cotton.
As far as personal experience, I find Ventile and other cotton top layers to be the lowest return for the value ($) from the materials we have on the market today. It provides good wind protection and is durable, but I find it not to be practical for any long distance backwoods travel. It does not offer sufficient rain protection, so you are forced to carry other rain protection anyway. It is breathable when dry, but when wet is as breathable as a plastic bag-the time when you presumably need it the most. My biggest problem however is that assuming you are not just out for a walk in the woods, you will have to remove those top layers for most of the trip. When hiking and climbing, I am almost down to my base layers. This means that all the other clothing has to go in my pack. The size and weight of Ventile, or whatever the permutation of the day happens to be is just too heavy and hard to compact to be comfortably carried. I find that a wool shirt offers sufficient wind protection so that a cotton cover is not required, and for when there is rain or snow, I have a very light, highly compactable synthetic shell. It spends most of the time in my backpack, and I paid $45 for both the jacket and the pants. I know, I know, the fire will get you if you are not wearing wool or cotton. That has not been my experience. Here I am wearing fleece next to the fire:
Plenty of sparks landed on me, none of them melted my clothing.
My point is, Ventile, Gaberdine, etc, (Scott called it Burberry) is one of the most overpriced materials on the market. If you are paying $300 for a piece of clothing, there is a wide range of options. In some very limited circumstances, Ventile might be a great choice, for the rest though...
But, ultimately, I doubt any of this will matter. We wear what we wear for numerous reasons, performance is usually not on top of the list. This is just my opinion anyway. As far as first hand sources, Scott's journals also have a few references about this tightly woven cotton material, but I'm having a hard time finding them right now.
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i have to say, my personal experience with ventile is with the SASS 'ventile-type' material so label stuff might be different spec. however, i found it to be quite simply put, the finest windproof material i have had the pleasure of using.i liked the reassuring stoutness of the fabric. i however didn't find it waterproof, but i think that might be my fault in the washing stage. when new it shed water just fine. but, a fabric for me must have more than a few attributes i like to remain my top choice.
i have for the last few years settled with the garbadine sas windproofs, i have genuine issue and and older SASS garbadine, i sold my ventile SASS on. i like the fact they require no special care whatsoever, i know the limits of the product, i know it will wet out, but will dry out ok.
for waterproof stuff, i'm using a keela munro. superb, no moisture build up to speak of, waterproof, good build quality and a lot more comfortable than goretex.
having said all that, i wouldn't turn down a westwinds antarctica smock! i'd be happy to do a review if they want to give me one! lol, xl or 2xl in any shade of bushcraft!
i have for the last few years settled with the garbadine sas windproofs, i have genuine issue and and older SASS garbadine, i sold my ventile SASS on. i like the fact they require no special care whatsoever, i know the limits of the product, i know it will wet out, but will dry out ok.
for waterproof stuff, i'm using a keela munro. superb, no moisture build up to speak of, waterproof, good build quality and a lot more comfortable than goretex.
having said all that, i wouldn't turn down a westwinds antarctica smock! i'd be happy to do a review if they want to give me one! lol, xl or 2xl in any shade of bushcraft!
Another vote for Paramo: Aspira smock for Scottish/Alps mountaineering and Velez Adventure for everyday use. Having said that, I have to say that I feel al little more 'at one' with nature in ventile or in Swanni. There's something about natural fibres... I choose right clothing for situation.
Ross makes a good point: we talk a lot about synthetics and fire damage but there is no reason why you can't wear synthetics under natural fibre clothing or even under synthetics like fleeces, which don't have issues with holes in membranes. I think we all develop our own approaches to what keep us comfortable. I am still trialling systems for different activities, including high-active sports (where nothing keeps you dry as you sweat so much) to mountaineering (synthetics, Paramo and belay jacket) to bushcraft (often ventile, Swanni, with lightweight synthetic waterproof if it all gets a bit damp!). Still not entirely convinced by soft-shell, although I have some excellent garments (Rab Boreas for Summer adventures!)...
Identical?
Hmmm. Could have been ventile if ventile had been invented. Egyptian cotton certainly comes close. Or it could have been drill or twist, sheeting, Palina cloth, Suma Cloth, Poplin, element cloth, balloon silk, or dry jean. All of these materials have been used in the past for tents and clothing and meet the description above. Tightly woven cotton is not very specific. The length of the cotton strands also makes a huge difference in performance. To call all "tightly woven cotton" material ventile is not even close to reality and is a poor argument to say the least. But you can spin it whatever way you want I reckon if it helps you "win" your argument. This is the internet after all. Put it in a blog, post it on a forum, make a video and put it on ewetoob and it becomes "truth." I know what my personal experiences have been with ventile and goretex and tons of military clothing and I'm more than satisfied with that.
Identical?
I know what my personal experiences have been with ventile and goretex and tons of military clothing and I'm more than satisfied with that.
Sigh! Can we all agree that whatever we want to call it it is a windproof but not waterproof cotton material? If so, what exactly are we disagreeing on? What we are going to call it?
You yourself stated:
"Ventile isn't new, it's old timey and pretty much the same as Egyptian cotton/balloon silk, which was good enough for the backwoodsmen of yesteryear. Newer isn't always better imo."
You brought up the fact that Ventile was just like cotton materials used in the past and used it as a justification for why it is good. I in turn made a reference to some original sources which speak about those materials. If you want to ignore them, then so be it. If you want to make distinctions based on terminology, that's fine. From a practical stand point though, as you said, we have the same thing. That thing happens to be heavy, bulky and not waterproof. If your type of outdoor activity permits or favors such clothing then wear it. If not, for the type of money one will spend on such a jacket, you can buy just about any piece of clothing you can think of.
That is just my opinion, and the OP was asking for opinions. We do not have to agree.
Well I love my single ventile.
Everything else has either been too warm or noisy.
If caught in an absolute downpour on the hill or moor, then a poncho may be donned but if it's blowing a gale and the rain passes then it doesn't take as long as you think to dry off ventile.
Everything else has either been too warm or noisy.
If caught in an absolute downpour on the hill or moor, then a poncho may be donned but if it's blowing a gale and the rain passes then it doesn't take as long as you think to dry off ventile.
Cool another Ventile debate....
The reality is Ventile is not a 'super' fabric possessed of a multitude of fantastic properties in the same way Goretex or other membranes are not a 'super' fabrics.
Depending on what type of Bushcraft you partake in depends on the type of fabric that is best suited to that activity.
It's that simple. I personally wouldn't want to be caught out on open moorland or in an Alpine elevation in a single layer Ventile Jacket as my sole weather proof top in cold heavy rain. As much as I wouldn't want to sit next to a popping and coal spitting fire in a 'Goretex waterproof'.
I think if you understand the benefits and limitations of any fabric you may choose (and there are a multitude of threads on BCUK alone on this subject) and use the fabric within those limitations then you'll probably be fine and the garment will not disappoint. Expect one fabric to do everything and you may end up a bit frustrated...
The reality is Ventile is not a 'super' fabric possessed of a multitude of fantastic properties in the same way Goretex or other membranes are not a 'super' fabrics.
Depending on what type of Bushcraft you partake in depends on the type of fabric that is best suited to that activity.
It's that simple. I personally wouldn't want to be caught out on open moorland or in an Alpine elevation in a single layer Ventile Jacket as my sole weather proof top in cold heavy rain. As much as I wouldn't want to sit next to a popping and coal spitting fire in a 'Goretex waterproof'.
I think if you understand the benefits and limitations of any fabric you may choose (and there are a multitude of threads on BCUK alone on this subject) and use the fabric within those limitations then you'll probably be fine and the garment will not disappoint. Expect one fabric to do everything and you may end up a bit frustrated...
Interesting! But its a bit difficult taking a dispassionate line with clothes, as emotions always get in the way.
I bought a double-layer ventile jacket from Survival Aids back in the 70s/80s. Beautifully made, and by all accounts at least as good as anything made today. Even then, horribly expensive. But, truth be told, I didn't wear it much, as it wasn't waterproof - water-resistant for a while certainly - and was as heavy as sin when wet. And not particularly breathable either - possibly because it was double-layer? And it ended up in a box in the garage, from whence the mrs threw it away!
Would I ever buy one again? Afraid not, as I couldn't justify the costs for a "fashion accessory", particularly when there's a host of gear nowadays that does a better job at a third of the price (in my humble opinion, of course)
I bought a double-layer ventile jacket from Survival Aids back in the 70s/80s. Beautifully made, and by all accounts at least as good as anything made today. Even then, horribly expensive. But, truth be told, I didn't wear it much, as it wasn't waterproof - water-resistant for a while certainly - and was as heavy as sin when wet. And not particularly breathable either - possibly because it was double-layer? And it ended up in a box in the garage, from whence the mrs threw it away!
Would I ever buy one again? Afraid not, as I couldn't justify the costs for a "fashion accessory", particularly when there's a host of gear nowadays that does a better job at a third of the price (in my humble opinion, of course)
Yup, exactly right. And Balloon Silk was considered in a class by itself. Egyptian cotton is not the same as other cottons. Have you ever priced Egyptian cotton sheets for instance? And Egyptian cotton sheets vary in thread count so the cloth made from Egyptian cotton is not all the same. Also, Balloon Silk was often treated to enhance its waterproofness but it certainly is not as waterproof as nylon treated with poly or other synthetics. But it certainly breathes better.
Here is an excerpt from "Trail Craft" By by Claude P. Fordyce; 1922:
Tent Making At HomeSHOULD one wish to try tent making at home, one is at once confronted with the choice of materials. Waterproofed balloon silk as a tent fabric stands in a class by itself. Superseding the antiquated heavy duck and flimsy drill cloth, balloon silk has been the chief item in revolutionizing tent making and thereby rendering extended hike trips at all feasible. It is really not a silk at all but a closely woven cotton cloth with a weight of but three and three-fifth ounces per yard. It is rot-, vermin-, and mildew-proof and exceedingly durable. Any large department store can supply you balloon silk, which can be handled on the ordinary sewing machine. Use good linen thread (No. 25), waxed, and for reinforcing use the tapes secured at the ten-cent store. All pieces to be sewn together are overlapped a half-inch and a one-inch hem is made around the edges. All points which are chosen for attachment to the ground pegs (oneat each hem) are reinforced with a small square of the tent material and then tape-ties are sewn on, or else grommets inserted, to receive rope ties. Coloring of the un-waterproofed tent is easily done with Diamond Dyesaccording to the package directions, tan or green being preferable.
And my main point here that there were lots of "tightly woven cotton" fabrics used in times past. That doesn't mean they were all the same or even similar to Ventile. You make an appeal to experts but you give no real validity to that appeal. From re-enactors that I know, I do know that Egyptian Cotton is still used successfully for tents and tarps and like Ventile, it is pricey. Again, not all "tightly woven" cotton fabrics are alike. It's a poor argument, period, imo.
I should add that I've owned goretex parkas nearly since the day they came out and I'm still waiting for one that "breathes" like it's supposed to. Been soaked to the bone on cool dry days just hiking around while wearing goretex. Ventile was a revelation to me, because unless it's raining cats and dogs, I stay dry as a bone in it. Hence, I'm a fan.
Ventile was a revelation to me, because unless it's raining cats and dogs, I stay dry as a bone in it. Hence, I'm a fan.
So you stay dry unless it's raining...
Keep up the good work....
I think you misunderstood my point Hoodoo. It is not that they are all identical in all ways. It is that you will be wet in all of them, and have a very interesting time carrying them around in the woods. I am only concerned with the practical side of the issue. I have no interest in debating thread count or terminology when at the end of the day, a 3 lb, $300 coat will still let me get wet, regardless of the name. That's all. For that weight and money, I can think of better clothing systems. That is just my opinion. Take it for what it is.
As far as the argument you seem to have, despite my disinterest in it, you seem to be asserting that the "tightly woven cotton clothing" worn by Mallory, Scott and Nansen was significantly inferior to Egyptian Cotton. I have seen nothing to indicate that. From what I understand those men acquired the best materials that were available at the time, and their clothing was custom made. It is possible, and therefore their writings on the issue of the clothing would be irrelevant, but I have seen nothing to indicate that. As far as tent material, even rough canvas can be used. I am not certain what that shows.
I'm not sure what more to say on the historical issue. Those are the only instances I know of where the clothing was used and spoken about. If you believe that their clothing was significantly inferior to modern Ventile, and as such their comments do not matter, then so be it. I am not sure how much that matters either way, considering we seem to agree that you will get wet in the material, no matter what the name.
As far as the argument you seem to have, despite my disinterest in it, you seem to be asserting that the "tightly woven cotton clothing" worn by Mallory, Scott and Nansen was significantly inferior to Egyptian Cotton. I have seen nothing to indicate that. From what I understand those men acquired the best materials that were available at the time, and their clothing was custom made. It is possible, and therefore their writings on the issue of the clothing would be irrelevant, but I have seen nothing to indicate that. As far as tent material, even rough canvas can be used. I am not certain what that shows.
I'm not sure what more to say on the historical issue. Those are the only instances I know of where the clothing was used and spoken about. If you believe that their clothing was significantly inferior to modern Ventile, and as such their comments do not matter, then so be it. I am not sure how much that matters either way, considering we seem to agree that you will get wet in the material, no matter what the name.
I should add that I've owned goretex parkas nearly since the day they came out and I'm still waiting for one that "breathes" like it's supposed to. Been soaked to the bone on cool dry days just hiking around while wearing goretex. Ventile was a revelation to me, because unless it's raining cats and dogs, I stay dry as a bone in it. Hence, I'm a fan.
Exactly.
'tex just doesn't work for me ,it's like wearing a polythene bag.
Guess it's all down to our metabolisms.
I get on well with 'Buffalo' pile and pertex in the winter too.
isn't the nature of the material in question, i.e cotton, it's downfall anyway? for the entire existance of the cotton strands life span, it constantly tries to get back to the original state? so it creases and frays and tries to always get back to the fluffy natural state that we as humans have tried to weave, sew and spin out of its existance? and by natures fine design, it tries to absorb water whenever it can? and only when our processing as humans of this fine material fails, does it achieve its one goal in its life...to make you wet and cold on the hill. lol. i think cotton believes in karma folkes! down with your twills and your drills! down with your eqyptian and your burberry! cotton i say live! be all you can be, be free little cotton ball, be free...
