Time To Boycott Norway?

[KenThis]

That is the thing though Ken, from an academic view I'm neither right or wrong. I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong when its proven, or even when its probable, but discussing evolution to the level you're going to is a complex debate and to me you were basing what you were saying on quite a simple model. I could be wrong, I might be right... but its a never-ending discussion and becomes pointless if everyone remains in their fixed positions (which happens a lot, especially with marine biologists... they're some of the most clever and at the same time stubborn individuals on the planet)

The absolutes came from your initial statement that 'this does not happen on any time scale that you could actually observe'. That may be true for some species, but not all. And the whole Anthropocene era stuff... a premature decision when the climate change debate should still be going on with vigor. Especially considering the (again simplistic) models used to determine it have been proven wrong again and again. There was more I read into, but frankly I'm boring myself aside from anyone else... its one of those discussions best suited around a campfire with a good bottle of something alcoholic.

A briefer version is probably that science isn't always right, and that is what is so interesting about it. A continual debate, bringing in new evidence or challenging existing theories, is healthy science... this almost consensus based science, ie the majority of scientists think this so it must be right, is doing us no favours. I've no doubt, just like the generations before us, we'll look back at our current thinking about evolution, the big bang and particularly climate change with a chuckle at how naive we're being. With the technological advancements we're experiencing at the moment, I hope I live long enough to see the complex ancestor simulations that are being discussed.. I'd be fascinated to see an engine based on Holling's theories.

It's true. Discussions of this kind are pointless on internet forums.
It's especially hard when one can never be sure if someone seriously believes what they're writing or are just 'trolling' in want of something better to do.

I think I'll just apologise for using such simple arguments. It was not my intention to patronise anyone I just wasn't sure what the level of understanding was in the room.
I should also apologise for trying to force my ideas on anyone else, I should have just pointed out a differing viewpoint and left it at that.
I should also apologise for sidetracking the thread and potentially boring anyone. I realise I tend to get a bit carried away when discussing certain topics. It comes from my own issues, I only really feel able to engage properly in a discussion when I feel that I know what I'm talking about. So when a topic comes around (no matter how tangentially) that I can turn to something I'm confident about discussing I get too excited and run with it.
Finally I'd like to apologise for being too forthright. After rereading some of the things I posted I think they may come across as rather pompous and dismissive. I can only say that I do have issues of needing to be 'right', so if/when I'm contradicted I then have to prove that I was correct. This is especially true when things are clearly correct and logical in my own mind. I have a real fear for my mental health, so when someone disagrees with me I take it as a personal slight and get on my high horse and argue, lest it be shown that I was actually wrong, (to me this would be like admitting my mind wasn't working properly).
Believe me when I say I have too much time on my hands for thinking about stuff written on the forums and I desperately need to get out more.
If I get carried away with my assertions again, I'd find it beneficial for someone to remind me to take some time to smell the coffee...

 

[dewi]

It's true. Discussions of this kind are pointless on internet forums.
It's especially hard when one can never be sure if someone seriously believes what they're writing or are just 'trolling' in want of something better to do.

I think I'll just apologise for using such simple arguments. It was not my intention to patronise anyone I just wasn't sure what the level of understanding was in the room.
I should also apologise for trying to force my ideas on anyone else, I should have just pointed out a differing viewpoint and left it at that.
I should also apologise for sidetracking the thread and potentially boring anyone. I realise I tend to get a bit carried away when discussing certain topics. It comes from my own issues, I only really feel able to engage properly in a discussion when I feel that I know what I'm talking about. So when a topic comes around (no matter how tangentially) that I can turn to something I'm confident about discussing I get too excited and run with it.
Finally I'd like to apologise for being too forthright. After rereading some of the things I posted I think they may come across as rather pompous and dismissive. I can only say that I do have issues of needing to be 'right', so if/when I'm contradicted I then have to prove that I was correct. This is especially true when things are clearly correct and logical in my own mind. I have a real fear for my mental health, so when someone disagrees with me I take it as a personal slight and get on my high horse and argue, lest it be shown that I was actually wrong, (to me this would be like admitting my mind wasn't working properly).
Believe me when I say I have too much time on my hands for thinking about stuff written on the forums and I desperately need to get out more.
If I get carried away with my assertions again, I'd find it beneficial for someone to remind me to take some time to smell the coffee...

So its agreed then... we'll have a couple of nights in the woods somewhere, some quality alcohol and a proper discussion/debate about evolution and the merits and/or disadvantages of differential equations?

Wouldn't worry too much about trolling... everybody knows the best place to get into an argument when you've nothing better to do is The Flat Earth Society. There are some bonkers arguments to explain why the Earth is flat and what is behind the belief... and bizarrely they are genuinely held beliefs... there are some very well-educated individuals on there that will swear the Earth is flat.

This particular debate on boycotting Norway was brought to you by Dave and his love of all things wolf For those who have seen Dodge Ball, the bit where Peter goes into Kate's house for the first time to discover everything and anything unicorn.... imagine for a moment a house filled with everything and anything wolf. I can neither confirm nor deny Dave's house is that house filled with everything and anything wolf.

[video=youtube;EO5YWgfl3xc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO5YWgfl3xc[/video]

 

[santaman2000]

Ken, you have no need to apologize. I take your point about needing to be right; we all suffer from that to at least a small degree (me to a larger degree) That said, so what? Even if we're wrong, at least we play devil's Advocate and keep the conversation going and push the other side to step up their argument. By the way, whether we're online or in a pub is no matter. We're still laymen at best and aren't going to change most of the subjects we talk about. We do accomplish things by those discussions though. We vent our frustrations and get to know one another better. That in and of itself makes the conversations worthwhile.

 

[Tengu]

Good point.

I for one dont see whales as intelegent, -they do have large brains, -mostly fat, to keep them warm.

Homo Florensis had a tiny brain but was still a tool maker and a human.

The cetae are well famed for their ability to chase and catch lucrative research grants though, -and thats one thing we mustnt forget; they are indeed one of the most useful of all animals. (Even without a research grant)

 

[Dave]

At least as the OP I have the power to change the title.

I might start changing a few of them.

The thread which went horribly wrong 1.
The thread which went horribly wrong 2.

and so on...

 

[dewi]

At least as the OP I have the power to change the title.

I might start changing a few of them.

The thread which went horribly wrong 1.
The thread which went horribly wrong 2.

and so on...

Surely the title should be 'Oh Barbara' then follow it with some sweet pictures of wolves?

Its been a good thread Dave, but when you value the life of a wolf against the life of a rat... be aware of Ratatouille... its a heart warming story of a rat that wants to be the world's greatest chef... a story everyone who favours the wolf should watch. It'll bring a tear to your eye.

 

[Leshy]

Rant alert!!!

I'm sorry, I've ran out of popcorn now...
Gotta let it out...

I'm sorry but I disagree with the whole
"Thread gone wrong" .
The world is going wrong...not the thread.

I think the thread represents different viewpoints of the folk on here, (and very elucidating these points...)
... I did expect such differences especially on Bushcraft forum, it's amusing and cringe worthy simultaneously...
Funny and scary , hopeless and sad all at the same time.
That's just us humans...our "nature".


Some are for hunting , some are not .

Some of us will kill and eat it ...and kill it to eat it!

Some will kill and not eat it...
boast it , take pics and trophies and possibly post it ... on Facebook.

(As was the case of Cecil the lion and the overpaid hunting idiot ...)
Sorry ,rubbish with names


Each to their own and all that ...
Strangely , I couldnt see one single post from our Norwegian members, deliberate abstinence or perhaps too strong a title?
What happened ?


Either way, regardless if Dave is, or is not ,wolf obsessed...

I understand and I agree with Dave's reason for posting this thread.

My point is , that there are alternative deterrents available, for the wolves in question, at a very cost effective price tag...virtually free actually...

but nobody really cares about alternative solutions...
"Just shoot them, that'l do!"

It makes me sad , and I can assure you that I feel the same about rats and mice, reptiles and cetaceans, eagle owls and hen harriers, tigers, jaguars, sheep and hippos , orangutans , bees and wasps , scorpions, funnel web spiders , foxes, badgers, silverbacks and lemurs to name but a few...

I feel bad about beagles and how they're being used right here in the UK for "scientific research" at the moment.
I feel bad about the hare coursing that still happens every other night somewhere in rural Britain .

I believe EVERY living thing on this planet has a spirit , a soul and a connection to the "Great Spirit" .

From the triops and the Mycelium, right up to the Giant sequoia tree and the Condor...from the humble ant to the blue whale.

I know .. pinko tree huggers and all that.
Im not afraid ! Fire away... I'm right here, ready for the taking.
Big red target on my forehead, please go ahead!
I'm an animal lover, a tree hugger a green tea drinking ,bean eating , mead drinking ,herb smoking hypocrite...
Yup , that's me.
Philosophy and psychology, economics and environmental policies are just irrelevant to most of these living organisms.
"It's all a load of old 5hit" , as the old lady used to say.

Our (dis)connection with the planet and our greed has put us in a untenable position. And we will reap what we've sown.


Our brains, language and opposable thumbs enabled us to intervene where and whenever we feel like it, yet we will destroy anything that stands in the way, (especially in the way of profit) even if that very thing is essential for our survival. And the rest of us , "the sheeple" stand and watch.

Of course wolves are not essential... but neither are sheep!

Bees however are essential ! Pesticides and herbicides are not.

I don't know who's right or wrong and to be honest it doesn't even matter anymore...

Just a shame that this will go ahead ...

Especially when we have the know-how and technology (speakers+CDs) to stop the wolves eating the livestock.

Sorry , rant over...

Ps-
It's your fault Dave , you started it...
😁

 

[Fadcode]

Hey, slow down there
It ain't all bad man
Nowt wrong with hugging a tree, we all accept or don't accept certain things, nowt wrong with that.
99.99% of all known creatures are now extinct, that's the way of life, things come and things go.
Mother Nature keeps a well balanced ship.
Yes the world is a funny place, half the people are starving, the other half are on a diet.
We have people sleeping on the street, homeless, poverty stricken,
We have people blowing each other up
But as Gloria Gaynor said "we will survive"
Nothing wrong with being a Wolf person, (as long as you ain't got long teeth and go around biting peoples necks)
If you understand life, and nature, you realise nothing lasts forever, life is about change, nature is about change, rebirth,
Wolves and sheep are essential, Bees too, and pesticides no, you say we have the technology and know-how, I ain't sure if we had the know-how maybe we wouldn't need, pesticides, nor beagles ,rats and other animals living their lives in Science labs,
We don't unfortunately live in a perfect world, and all we can do is our little bit to make it better.
And knowing we are doing our little bit, well maybe it will make a difference.

 

[dewi]

Rant alert!!!

I'm sorry, I've ran out of popcorn now...
Gotta let it out...

I'm sorry but I disagree with the whole
"Thread gone wrong" .
The world is going wrong...not the thread.

I think the thread represents different viewpoints of the folk on here, (and very elucidating these points...)
... I did expect such differences especially on Bushcraft forum, it's amusing and cringe worthy simultaneously...
Funny and scary , hopeless and sad all at the same time.
That's just us humans...our "nature".


Some are for hunting , some are not .

Some of us will kill and eat it ...and kill it to eat it!

Some will kill and not eat it...
boast it , take pics and trophies and possibly post it ... on Facebook.

(As was the case of Cecil the lion and the overpaid hunting idiot ...)
Sorry ,rubbish with names


Each to their own and all that ...
Strangely , I couldnt see one single post from our Norwegian members, deliberate abstinence or perhaps too strong a title?
What happened ?


Either way, regardless if Dave is, or is not ,wolf obsessed...

I understand and I agree with Dave's reason for posting this thread.

My point is , that there are alternative deterrents available, for the wolves in question, at a very cost effective price tag...virtually free actually...

but nobody really cares about alternative solutions...
"Just shoot them, that'l do!"

It makes me sad , and I can assure you that I feel the same about rats and mice, reptiles and cetaceans, eagle owls and hen harriers, tigers, jaguars, sheep and hippos , orangutans , bees and wasps , scorpions, funnel web spiders , foxes, badgers, silverbacks and lemurs to name but a few...

I feel bad about beagles and how they're being used right here in the UK for "scientific research" at the moment.
I feel bad about the hare coursing that still happens every other night somewhere in rural Britain .

I believe EVERY living thing on this planet has a spirit , a soul and a connection to the "Great Spirit" .

From the triops and the Mycelium, right up to the Giant sequoia tree and the Condor...from the humble ant to the blue whale.

I know .. pinko tree huggers and all that.
Im not afraid ! Fire away... I'm right here, ready for the taking.
Big red target on my forehead, please go ahead!
I'm an animal lover, a tree hugger a green tea drinking ,bean eating , mead drinking ,herb smoking hypocrite...
Yup , that's me.
Philosophy and psychology, economics and environmental policies are just irrelevant to most of these living organisms.
"It's all a load of old 5hit" , as the old lady used to say.

Our (dis)connection with the planet and our greed has put us in a untenable position. And we will reap what we've sown.


Our brains, language and opposable thumbs enabled us to intervene where and whenever we feel like it, yet we will destroy anything that stands in the way, (especially in the way of profit) even if that very thing is essential for our survival. And the rest of us , "the sheeple" stand and watch.

Of course wolves are not essential... but neither are sheep!

Bees however are essential ! Pesticides and herbicides are not.

I don't know who's right or wrong and to be honest it doesn't even matter anymore...

Just a shame that this will go ahead ...

Especially when we have the know-how and technology (speakers+CDs) to stop the wolves eating the livestock.

Sorry , rant over...

Ps-
It's your fault Dave , you started it...
��

Erm, no .

 

[Corso]

I find these threads are good for nothing more than adding to my ignore list

 

[Andy BB]

Oh no! Now someone had to mention the word "profit" as, effectively, evil!
No profits, no tax revenue. No NHS, roads, medical research, police to protect us from all the nasty people out there, no environmental funding, rampant polio, diphtheria, various plagues, social workers, no internet or media - the list is endless. As much as I can understand the naïve wish to return to a simpler time - or barbarism as it's more accurately called - I'm pretty certain most of us are not equipped to benefit from a return to the "survival of the fittest" scenario.............

 

[boatman]

Profit in itself is not evil and a functioning economy is the basis of all. However, what to sacrifice for profit is the question. Perhaps the Blackface sheep and the Irish famine ultimately benefited the Scottish and Irish because a future of "third world" poverty would have been untenable but there were kinder ways the same results could have been achieved.

As to wolves, it seems reasonable to protect them in Norway given the area and their ecological benefits but we mustn't be hypocritical as we are about tigers in India, expecting unarmed villagers to deal with them alone.