The Titanic sinking conspiracy theory
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Aaron, I've just debunked two of those key points (stars, distant landmark) and you've ignored me. I'm outa here.
Hmmmm - isn't there a point here that neither unquestioning dumb acceptance of what one is told nor embracing every crackpot theory is wise.
I'm sure anyone who believes that governments don't lie and conceal wrongdoing would find the investigation of the "Operation Buffalo" nuclear tests in Australia illuminating. The British government categorically stated that they did not use human guinea pigs to test nuclear weapons. They admitted in 2001 that this was a lie.
Equally for those who think all conspiracies are valid, I refer them another politician - David Icke and his theory that the world is ruled by Lizard Alien Illuminati masquerading as royals.
There is nothing so foolish as a conspiracy theory - except a blind trust that all the facts supplied by governments and scientists are facts and not deliberate falsehoods. Governments and scientists have been proven mistaken, and as liars, repeatedly.
A healthy scepticism, with a dose of reality checking must be the right way.
Whilst Occham was right most of the time, sometimes, its zebras.
I'm sure anyone who believes that governments don't lie and conceal wrongdoing would find the investigation of the "Operation Buffalo" nuclear tests in Australia illuminating. The British government categorically stated that they did not use human guinea pigs to test nuclear weapons. They admitted in 2001 that this was a lie.
Equally for those who think all conspiracies are valid, I refer them another politician - David Icke and his theory that the world is ruled by Lizard Alien Illuminati masquerading as royals.
There is nothing so foolish as a conspiracy theory - except a blind trust that all the facts supplied by governments and scientists are facts and not deliberate falsehoods. Governments and scientists have been proven mistaken, and as liars, repeatedly.
A healthy scepticism, with a dose of reality checking must be the right way.
Whilst Occham was right most of the time, sometimes, its zebras.
Absolutely agree 100%
We're not talking about air tight infallible governments and organisations here.
Just some highlights.
19691974 Richard M. Nixon Administration
- Spiro Agnew Vice-President (R-MD) to Richard Nixon was convicted of tax fraud stemming from bribery charges in Maryland and forced to resign.[252] Nixon replaced him as V.P. with Gerald R. Ford (R-MI)(1973)
- Watergate (19721973) Republican 'bugging' of the Democratic Party National Headquarters at the Watergate Hotel led to a burglary which was discovered. The cover up of the affair by President Richard Nixon (R) and his staff resulted in 69 government officials being charged and 48 pleading guilty. Eventually, Nixon resigned his position.[254]
19741977 Gerald Ford Administration
- Andrew J. Hinshaw (R-CA) Congressman convicted of accepting bribes while Assessor of Orange County. He served one year in prison. (1977)[245]
- Wayne L. Hays (D-OH), resigned from Congress after hiring and promoting his mistress, Elizabeth Ray See sex scandals. (1976)[246]
- Henry Helstoski (D-NJ) Indicted on charges of accepting bribes to aid immigrants but the case was dismissed by the Supreme Court. (1976)[247]
- James F. Hastings (R-NY), convicted of kickbacks and mail fraud. Took money from his employees for personal use. Served 14 months at Allenwood penitentiary (1976)[248]
- Robert L. F. Sikes (D-FL) reprimanded for conflict of interest in failing to disclose stock holdings.[232]
- John V. Dowdy (D-TX), Served 6 months in prison for perjury. (1973)[249]
- Bertram Podell (D-NY), pleaded guilty to conspiracy and conflict of interest. He was fined $5,000 and served four months in prison (1974)[250]
- Frank Brasco (D-NY) Sentenced to three months in jail and fined $10,000 for conspiracy to accept bribes from a reputed Mafia figure who sought truck leasing contracts from the Post Office and loans to buy trucks.[221]
19811989 Ronald Reagan Administration
- Raymond J. Donovan (R) Secretary of Labor under Ronald Reagan, was investigated and acquitted of larceny and fraud concerning subway construction in New York City(1987)[156]
- Housing and Urban Development Scandal A scandal concerning bribery by selected contractors for low income housing projects.
- Iran-Contra Affair (19851986); A plan conceived by CIA head William Casey (R) and Oliver North (R) of the National Security Council to sell TOW missiles to Iran for the return of US hostages and then use part of the money received to fund Contra rebels trying to overthrow the left wing government of Nicaragua, which was in direct violation of Congress' Boland Amendment.[167] Ronald Reagan appeared on TV stating there was no "arms for hostages" deal, but was later forced to admit, also on TV, that yes, there indeed had been:
- Michael Deaver (R) Deputy Chief of Staff to Ronald Reagan 198185, pleaded guilty to perjury related to lobbying activities and was sentenced to 3 years probation and fined $100,000[190]
- Sewergate A scandal in which funds from the EPA were selectively used for projects which would aid politicians friendly to the Reagan administration.
19891993 George H. W. Bush Administration
- George H. W. Bush (R) President. during his election campaign, Bush denied any knowledge of the Iran Contra Affair by saying he was "out of the loop." But his own diaries of that time stated "I'm one of the few people that know fully the details ..." He repeatedly refused to disclose this to investigators and won the election. (1988)[146]
- Catalina Vasquez Villalpando, (R) Treasurer of the United States. Pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice and tax evasion. The only US Treasurer ever sent to prison. (1992)[147]
- Iran-Contra Affair pardons. On December 24, 1992, George H. W. Bush (R) granted clemency to five convicted government officials and Caspar Weinberger, whose trial had not yet begun. This action prevented any further investigation into the affair.[148
19932001 Bill Clinton Administration
- Webster Hubbell (D) Associate Attorney General, pleaded guilty to mail fraud and tax evasion while in private practice.[117] Sentenced to 21 months in prison (1995)[118]
- Henry Cisneros (D) Secretary of Housing. Resigned and plead guilty (1999) to a misdemeanor charge of lying to the FBI about the amount of money he paid his former mistress, Linda Medlar while he was Mayor of San Antonio, Texas. He was fined $10,000 (1999)[119]
- Ronald Blackley, (D) Secretary of Agriculture Mike Espy's Chief of Staff, sentenced to 27 months for perjury. Mike Espy was found innocent on all counts.[dead link][120]
- Bill Clinton President (D) Impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice for allegedly lying under oath about sexual relations with intern Monica Lewinsky. Clinton was acquitted by the Senate and remained in office. Clinton subsequently was cited for contempt of court and agreed to a five-year suspension of his Arkansas law license (1998).[121] On October 1, 2001, Bill Clinton was barred from practicing law before the Supreme Court of the United States (2001)[122]
- Pardongate President Bill Clinton (D) granted 140 pardons on his last day in office January 20, 2001 for a total of 396.[123] which seemed large compared to the total of 74 by predecessor George H. W. Bush, but not when compared to Ronald Reagan's total of 393.[124]
- Whitewater scandal (19942000) independent counsel Kenneth Starr (R) investigated the Clintons' role in peddling influence for the Whitewater (real estate) Development Corporation while he was Governor of Arkansas. No criminal charges were brought against either President Bill Clinton (D) or First Lady Hillary Clinton (D).[125]
- Wampumgate Bruce Babbitt (D), Secretary of the Interior 19932001, accused of lying to Congress about influencing a 1995 American Indian tribe casino decision. Babbitt was cleared of all wrongdoing.[126]
- Filegate alleged misuse of FBI resources by Clinton Security Chief, Craig Livingstone (D), to compile an 'enemies' list (1996); Investigation found insufficient evidence of criminal wrongdoing.[127]
- Vincent Foster (D) the White House lawyer was alleged to have been murdered by either Bill or Hillary Clinton, for various reasons and with varying degrees of involvement. The suicide was investigated by the Park Police Service, the FBI, Independent Consultant Robert Fiske and finally by Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr all of whom ruled that it was a simple suicide.(1993)[128]
- Travelgate, involving the firing of White House travel agents. In 1998 Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr (R) exonerated President Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton of any involvement (1993).[129]
20012009 George W. Bush Administration
- Timothy Goeglein (R) Special Assistant to President Bush resigned when it was discovered that more than 20 of his columns had been plagarized from an Indiana newspaper. (2008)[24]
- Lewis Libby (R) Chief of Staff to Vice President Dick Cheney (R), 'Scooter' was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in the Plame Affair on March 6, 2007. He was sentenced to 30 months in prison and fined $250,000. The sentence was commuted by George W. Bush (R) on July 1, 2007. The felony remains on Libby's record though the jail time and fine were commuted.[25][26]
- Alphonso Jackson (R) The Secretary of Housing and Urban Development resigned while under investigation by the FBI for revoking the contract of a vendor who told Jackson he did not like President George W. Bush (R) (2008)[27][28]
- Karl Rove (R) Senior Adviser to President George W. Bush was investigated by the Office of Special Counsel for "improper political influence over government decision-making", as well as for his involvement in several other scandals such as Lawyergate, Bush White House e-mail controversy and Plame affair. He resigned in April 2007. (See Karl Rove in the George W. Bush administration)[29]
- "Lawyergate"[30] Or the Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy refers to President Bush firing, without explanation, eleven Republican federal prosecutors whom he himself had appointed. It is alleged they were fired for prosecuting Republicans and not prosecuting Democrats.[31][32] When Congressional hearings were called, a number of senior Justice Department officials cited executive privilege and refused to testify under oath and instead resigned, including:
- Bush White House e-mail controversy During the Lawyergate investigation it was discovered that the Bush administration used Republican National Committee (RNC) web servers for millions of emails which were then destroyed, lost or deleted in possible violation of the Presidential Records Act and the Hatch Act. George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Andrew Card, Sara Taylor and Scott Jennings all used RNC webservers for the majority of their emails. Of 88 officials, no emails at all were discovered for 51 of them.[43] As many as 5 million e-mails requested by Congressional investigators of other Bush administration scandals were therefore unavailable, lost, or deleted.[44]
- Kyle Foggo Executive director of the CIA was convicted of honest services fraud in the awarding of a government contract and sentenced to 37 months in federal prison at Pine Knot, Kentucky. On September 29, 2008, Foggo pleaded guilty to one count of the indictment, admitting that while he was the CIA executive director, he acted to steer a CIA contract to the firm of his lifelong friend, Brent R. Wilkes.[59]
- Claude Allen (R) Appointed as an advisor by President George W. Bush (R) on Domestic Policy, Allen was arrested for a series of felony thefts in retail stores. He was convicted on one count and resigned soon after.[61]
- Lester Crawford (R) Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration, resigned after 2 months. Pled guilty to conflict of interest and received 3 years suspended sentence and fined $90,000 (2006)[62]
- 2003 Invasion of Iraq depended on intelligence that Saddam Hussein was developing "weapons of mass destruction" (WMDs) meaning nuclear, chemical and/or biological weapons for offensive use. As revealed by The (British) Downing Street memo "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and the facts were being fixed around the policy" The press called this the 'smoking gun."(2005)[63]
- Yellowcake forgery: Just prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration presented evidence to the UN that Iraq was seeking material (yellowcake uranium) in Africa for making nuclear weapons. Though presented as true, it was later found to be not only dubious, but outright false.[64]
- Coalition Provisional Authority Cash Payment Scandal: On June 20, 2005, the staff of the Committee on Government Reform prepared a report for Congressman Henry Waxman.[65] It was revealed that $12 billion in cash had been delivered to Iraq by C-130 planes, on shrinkwrapped pallets of US $100 bills.[66] The United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, concluded that "Many of the funds appear to have been lost to corruption and waste.... Some of the funds could have enriched both criminals and insurgents...." Henry Waxman, commented, "Who in their right mind would send 363 tons of cash into a war zone?" A single flight to Iraq on December 12, 2003 which contained $1.5 billion in cash is said to be the largest single Federal Reserve payout in US history according to Henry Waxman.[67][68]
- Bush administration payment of columnists with federal funds to say nice things about Republican policies. Illegal payments were made to journalists Armstrong Williams (R), Maggie Gallagher (R) and Michael McManus (R) (20042005)[69]
- Sandy Berger (D) former Clinton security adviser pleads guilty to a misdemeanor charge of unlawfully removing classified documents from the National Archives in (2005)[70]
- Bernard Kerik (R) nomination in 2004 as Secretary of Homeland Security was derailed by past employment of an illegal alien as a nanny, and other improprieties. On Nov 4, 2009, he pled guilty to two counts of tax fraud and five counts of lying to the federal government and was sentenced to four years in prison.[71]
- Torture: Top US officials including George W. Bush (R)[72] and Dick Cheney (R)[73] authorized enhanced interrogation techniques of prisoners, including waterboarding (called torture by many) by US troops and the CIA in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. In 2010 Bush stated "He'd do it again..." and Cheney stated on ABC's This Week, "I was a big supporter of waterboarding".[74] (2004)
- Plame affair (2004), in which CIA agent Valerie Plame's name was supposedly leaked by Richard Armitage, Deputy Secretary of State, to the press in retaliation for her husband's criticism of the reports used by George W. Bush to legitimize the Iraq war.[75] Armitage admitted he was the leak[76] but no wrong doing was found.
- Thomas A. Scully, (R) administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), withheld information from Congress about the projected cost of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act, and allegedly threatened to fire Medicare's chief actuary, Richard Foster, if Foster provided the data to Congress. (2003)[77] Scully resigned on December 16, 2003.
- NSA warrantless surveillance Shortly after the September 11 attacks in 2001, President George W. Bush (R) implemented a secret program by the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on domestic telephone calls by American citizens without warrants, thus by-passing the FISA court which must approve all such actions. (2002)[78] In 2010, Federal Judge Vaughn Walker ruled this practice to be illegal.[79]
- Kenneth Lay (R), a member of the Republican National Committee, financial donor and ally of President George W. Bush (R) and once considered a possible Secretary of the Treasury. Lay was found guilty of 10 counts of securities fraud concerning his company Enron, but died before sentencing.[80][81][82][83][84]
- Janet Rehnquist (R) appointed Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services by George W. Bush. In 2002, Governor Jeb Bush's (R-FL) Chief of Staff Kathleen Shanahan asked Rehnquist to delay auditing a $571 million federal overpayment to the State of Florida. Rehnquist ordered her staff to delay the investigation for five months until after the Florida elections. When Congress began an investigation in to the matter, Rehnquist resigned in March 2003, saying she wanted to spend more time with her family.[85][86][87][87][88][89]
Believe it or not these are just the highlights, the full list of scandals are here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States
By looking at all these scandals it's hard to imagine that this bunch of idiots would be able to keep ANY secret, never mind one as massive as forged moon landings, 9/11 cover up etc.
The conspiracy theorists re really over estimating the intelligence and decency of these jerks, anyone single one of them would happily have released state secrets if it meant saving their own neck.
The other thing to consider it EVERYTHING gets found out eventually.
Be it new technology analysing evidence or papers that were thought to had been deleted coming out.
Institutions like the Bush's and the Kennedy's have a legacy to think about, if it came out at a later date that they conspired in lies on this scale to the masses then the entire legacy of the family's would be wiped out overnight.
In this day and age there is absolutely no doubt that governments leak like sieves.
One last thing on this 9/11 Pentagon conspiracy rubbish.
You said there were no plane wreckage - I posted pics showing plane wreckage
NOW all of a sudden it's not the right type of plane wreckage
Move the goal posts much?
Another vast wealth of evidence is ALL the eye witness reports (of which my mate ids one)
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html
Read through that and just look at the shear expanse of eye witnesses, from congressmen to maintenance workers, from soldiers to politicians from the OPPOSITE political party, hell there are even independent reporters there.
Anyone that thinks that every single person is lieing or part of a worldwide conspiracy is just nuts IMO.
A thumbs up to British Red.
The trouble I have is that the British & US governments have lied to us sooo much over the last 30 years at the very least, I find it really hard to believe anything either of em say at all. If they actually said the streets are gonna be paved with actual street, I'd find it pretty damn difficult to believe.
David Icke, mmmm, now there's a confused individual, some good arguments, some just plain terrible but I do think that there is a Herpetologist struggling to get out (absolutely no offence to Jonathan or any other actual Herpetologists btw), just his fascination with lizards is quite bizzare, Bush certainly looks like one, HRH whatsherface also looks like one, as does wingnut, most politicians eat like reptiles, but then reptiles aren't slimey, and snake in the grass is an absolute insult to snakes imo.
Ah well, each to their own I reckon.
Oooh Cameron, he definately looks like a reptile, come to think of it......
Si
The trouble I have is that the British & US governments have lied to us sooo much over the last 30 years at the very least, I find it really hard to believe anything either of em say at all. If they actually said the streets are gonna be paved with actual street, I'd find it pretty damn difficult to believe.
David Icke, mmmm, now there's a confused individual, some good arguments, some just plain terrible but I do think that there is a Herpetologist struggling to get out (absolutely no offence to Jonathan or any other actual Herpetologists btw), just his fascination with lizards is quite bizzare, Bush certainly looks like one, HRH whatsherface also looks like one, as does wingnut, most politicians eat like reptiles, but then reptiles aren't slimey, and snake in the grass is an absolute insult to snakes imo.
Ah well, each to their own I reckon.
Oooh Cameron, he definately looks like a reptile, come to think of it......
Si
Biker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Distant landmarks? OK granted mountian don't really change that much over a long distance compared to the foreground but withthe moon beng smaller surely the horizon would be closer therefore those mountains need to be HUGE! The places listed at the NASA website show locations miles apart from one another yet the exact same background is shown in each shot. It's like they wheeled in a back lot sceneray for the foregound and forgot to change it when the props needed changing.
Stars. Hmmm good point and those movie cameras they using are pretty grainy but those fancy hasselblad (I think that the name) looked state of the art yet even they didn't show anything even close to a star shining anywhere. I'm no photographer I admit but surely something ought to show somewhere?
Like i said the vid explains it far better than me and it's not up to me to convince you of my opinions. This time last year I was convinced man had walked on the moon, now I seriously doubt it to the point that I would be surprised if he had.
If you left under a cloud about not getting a suitable answer from me it's because I felt it better to come from the vid explaining than me spouting off second had information. Sorry if you got annoyed at me, I wasn't pooh poohing what you said.
i reckon all you conspiracy theorists are infact the conspiracy to destabalise us all !!
paid by the goverment ( deniable ) to create smoke and mirrors to distract us from the truth !
paid by the goverment ( deniable ) to create smoke and mirrors to distract us from the truth !
What?!?!?
Next you'll be telling us there weren't actually WMDs in Iraq and Bush only shoved his hand up Blairs 'jacket' and used him as a glove puppet because he wanted to take Saddam out??? How crazy is that. :yikes:
Whoops better go check in the garden to see if my errant frog has materialised and turned into a politician. (Yep I know that frogs are amphibians and not reptiles, but David Icke could be a plant).
Si
Next you'll be telling us there weren't actually WMDs in Iraq and Bush only shoved his hand up Blairs 'jacket' and used him as a glove puppet because he wanted to take Saddam out??? How crazy is that. :yikes:
Whoops better go check in the garden to see if my errant frog has materialised and turned into a politician. (Yep I know that frogs are amphibians and not reptiles, but David Icke could be a plant).
Si
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Biker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
One last thing on this 9/11 Pentagon conspiracy rubbish.
You said there were no plane wreckage - I posted pics showing plane wreckage
NOW all of a sudden it's not the right type of plane wreckage
Move the goal posts much?
Another vast wealth of evidence is ALL the eye witness reports (of which my mate ids one)
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html
Read through that and just look at the shear expanse of eye witnesses, from congressmen to maintenance workers, from soldiers to politicians from the OPPOSITE political party, hell there are even independent reporters there.
Anyone that thinks that every single person is lieing or part of a worldwide conspiracy is just nuts IMO.
When I said no wreckage I'm talking about major parts of the plane. engine nacelles, tail section, even smaller stuff like seat cushions, luggage, insulation etc. Yet they expect us to believe that a concrete and glass building a few storeys tall swallowed an entire airliner and the resulting fire burnt every big piece that the average laymen could recognise. No pieces were left to point at and say that's the tail section of airline77. Doesn't that even strike you as odd?
The few scattered pieces that are shown don't match up to that particular plane. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm moving the goal posts, I'm honestly not trying to imply that, but it's a bit like seeing two Ford cars crash into one another and then the authorities scatter Volkswagen bits at the scene. Every plane part has a serial part number on it, I would bet my front teeth the serial numbers attributed to flight 77 won't match up to those they found at the scene.
As for the witnesses. Those that have born witness to seeing it seem to be in conflict against those who say no such thing occured. Plus we're supposed to believe a poorly trained arab managed to do what most professional pilots can't do on a good day? Fly a jet liner 20 feet off the deck after making a vey steep descent and crash his plane into a building. Forgive me if I find the offically presented facts laughable.
Each of the scenarios just don't hold water. Planes, rarely if at all, simply vapourise on impact yet two planes in highly dramatic circumstances did just that on the same day.
A tubular aluminum nose and fuselage managed to punch its way through 6 reinforced concrete walls while the 6 ton engines didn't make a single hole where they should have and then vapourised in the ensuing fire. Incidently the hole punched through was actually smaller than the diameter of flight77's fuselage. How odd is that! And at the end of that tunnel/hole there's not a single sign of nosecone, cockpit window, instruments or even bodies, yet a 747 flying over Scotland can blow apart and recognsiable pieces fall all over a town and you can clearly see what it once was
Several years later, not days or weeks after but YEARS later the governement agency release a 4 second video showing the explosion but there's not a single image of a big plane anywhere in the frame.
And still they say a hijacked airliner crashed into it.
Excuse me for having my doubts.
Urban X rightly summed up the politicians and agencies involved, some are incredibly stupid. G.W. Bush is a total knob, but despite being a knob he's surrounded by clever cunning advisors and handlers. The man's a liar, just look at him and the way he speaks, it's like Reagan all over again, only much worse.
I hope I live long enough to see this whole thing blow up and exposed for the thing it really is - a deception of bibilcal proportions... but I ain't holding my breath over it coming to light all the time the world accepts these deceptions and chooses not to call those to account.
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Couple of things here.
1/ You are comparing aircraft crashes with deliberate crashes.
There is a vast vast difference between the 2.
In a usual aircraft crash scenario the pilots will do whatever they can to ease the impact, be it slowing the plane down or if that's not possible coming into as shallow an angle as possible for the approach.
In the cases for 9/11 the plane were flown full speed into the ground/buildings.
So the is a MASSIVE difference in impact speeds here, the Pentagon impact was estimated at over 500mph, just imagine that.
Look at a bad crash on a motorway at 70mph then imagine a impact 7 times faster than that.
As a rough reference look at dragster crashes on youtube to see the massive forces that stopping quickly at speed causes.
Now imagine that the frame of the 757 is only a few mm thick in places.
For a rough idea of how metals react under extreme forces take a look at this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg
Ok the plane wasn't going THAT fast but then it had a LOT more weight behind it, any aluminium or metal that came directly into contact with the building would effectively have disintegrated.
2/ You are saying there was a shallow hole, that simply isn't the case, there was VERY badly damaged walls up to 90 feet away.
3/ You say you have trouble believing that a Arabian pilot with training and extensive simulation experience was able to crash into a stationary building YET you are happy to believe that in front of thousands of witnesses, TV cameras, journalist, reporters and public someone from somewhere planted bits of aircraft
Did you read the witness reports i linked to?
I'm guessing not, as it's blatantly obvious there are very very few conflicting reports.
If those few are taken out of context and 99% ignored OF COURSE it seems odd, read ALL the reports though and it suddenly seems a LOT less dramatic.
As i say i personally know 1 of those witnesses, i would vouch for him 100% he is a solid bloke who i have happily put faith in in life and death situations.
These conspiracy theorists dehumanise this tragic day, calling witnesses liars, government patsys or fools, disregarding analysis carried out by people who have MASSIVE amounts of experience in their fields only to trust some school boy animation.
To me it sounds like you believing the things you want and are completely disregarding all other evidence.
Well it's gone 1am, still no frog in the garden, (I'm not mad it's another thread honest), luckily no politicians either, had a few late ones watching various documentaries, still enjoying this thread immensely and the ol ribs have taken a fair pounding with the laughter in places, but it's late and I need some normality in my life, time for....
Shaun of the Dead
Hell yeah!
Hog lumps anyone?
Si
Shaun of the Dead
Hell yeah!
Hog lumps anyone?
Si
Ohhh forgot to add, take a gander at these 2 sites.
http://www.physics911.net/
http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html
Some good solid evidence.
No they don't have ALL the answers but then neither do the the conspiracy theorists.
http://www.physics911.net/
http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html
Some good solid evidence.
No they don't have ALL the answers but then neither do the the conspiracy theorists.
Wow. This has moved on. I was going to reply from page one but someone mentioned UFO's and that's about as much as I need to hear. 
Biker take a couple of flight lessons. Flying really ain't that hard. My scoutmaster had me flying his plane when I was 15. In fact if you can drive a car, you can learn to fly; it just costs more (and money wasn't/isn't an object for well funded terrorists) Granted an airliner is bigger but all the hijackers had to do was steer an inherently stable airplane to the target after a professional did the harder part of taking off.
Biker, watch
http://cool3net.com/video/3SMN3XYUH77R/911-Conspiracy-Road-Trip-BBC-Documentary
may answer some questions for you.
The blindness of some of the people on the programme is verging on them having mental health issues IMHO.
http://cool3net.com/video/3SMN3XYUH77R/911-Conspiracy-Road-Trip-BBC-Documentary
may answer some questions for you.
The blindness of some of the people on the programme is verging on them having mental health issues IMHO.
Biker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Thanks for the links fella I'll check 'em out later. There's a lot to read and last night I was too knackered to wade through a lot of literature, today I have to get some drawings done. (it's my day job)
Y'know this thread is arguement and counter-arguement (but in a good way) each of us is trying to convince the other of truths which each camp can see and is puzzled by the others apparent inability to not see it. So why doesn't each camp make some honest effort to read and watch the others links they've referred to with an open mind and make some conclusions.. however unsavoury they might be?
Better minds than mine have done the donkey work presenting their cases for the Moon landings & 9-11 etc, they can say it soooo much better than I ever can.
Thanks chaps.
Y'know this thread is arguement and counter-arguement (but in a good way) each of us is trying to convince the other of truths which each camp can see and is puzzled by the others apparent inability to not see it. So why doesn't each camp make some honest effort to read and watch the others links they've referred to with an open mind and make some conclusions.. however unsavoury they might be?
Better minds than mine have done the donkey work presenting their cases for the Moon landings & 9-11 etc, they can say it soooo much better than I ever can.
Thanks chaps.
Another link for you, radio hams listened in to broadcasts from the astronauts who had landed on the moon.
http://legacy.jefferson.kctcs.edu/observatory/apollo11/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43lPFcnXNTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wysEhkYhBTk&feature=channel&list=UL
Don't forget that Apollo 12 bought back the camera from the Surveyor 3 craft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveyor_3
http://legacy.jefferson.kctcs.edu/observatory/apollo11/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43lPFcnXNTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wysEhkYhBTk&feature=channel&list=UL
Don't forget that Apollo 12 bought back the camera from the Surveyor 3 craft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveyor_3
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Ok, my two p's worth!
I think the thing is with most of these, is that there are some elements about the official "facts" that just don't add up. Most likely, some small piece of evidence has been withheld or changed - for some reason - and makes the whole event look suspect. For instance:
9-11:
Whether terrorist or Gov controlled flights (i'll leave that to you), those towers were ultimately brought down by controlled explosion. There is a wealth of evidence to support the controlled demolition. Think about it, in a tightly packed city, full of skyscrapers, there will be "controls" to enable agencies to "safely" bring down a building in the event of a disaster - to limit the damage caused to the surrounding ones. But there would be mass panic around the world if people found out that all their skyscrapers had cordite built into the structure. By trying to cover up this "small" fact, it makes the whole sequence look suspect.
Lockerbie:
The "secret" with this flight was that there were CIA agents on board that flight coming back from Syrian drug operations. Some say they were defecting, some say they were just returning to the USA. Either way the plane blew up, either terrorists trying to kill the CIA agents, or the CIA trying to kill its own defectors. Weirdly the CIA/FBI were on the scene before most of our own police force - how did they get there so quickly? A channel 4 camera man also said he saw what looked like missile tubes hidden under tarp at a site near the crash!
In this instance, i think it unlikely that the CIA blew up their own people at the expense of a plane of innocent people, but that they tried to cover up the fact that there were CIA on the plane, and that there were terrorists with surface to air missiles on the UK mainland.
For the others:
The Pentagon was his by a missile, not a plane. Even in the CCTV footage released of the incident (which oddly there is very little of), doesn't seem to to show an aeroplane!
Man has walked on the moon - just perhaps not in 1969.
The Titanic IS at the bottom of the ocean.
I think the thing is with most of these, is that there are some elements about the official "facts" that just don't add up. Most likely, some small piece of evidence has been withheld or changed - for some reason - and makes the whole event look suspect. For instance:
9-11:
Whether terrorist or Gov controlled flights (i'll leave that to you), those towers were ultimately brought down by controlled explosion. There is a wealth of evidence to support the controlled demolition. Think about it, in a tightly packed city, full of skyscrapers, there will be "controls" to enable agencies to "safely" bring down a building in the event of a disaster - to limit the damage caused to the surrounding ones. But there would be mass panic around the world if people found out that all their skyscrapers had cordite built into the structure. By trying to cover up this "small" fact, it makes the whole sequence look suspect.
Lockerbie:
The "secret" with this flight was that there were CIA agents on board that flight coming back from Syrian drug operations. Some say they were defecting, some say they were just returning to the USA. Either way the plane blew up, either terrorists trying to kill the CIA agents, or the CIA trying to kill its own defectors. Weirdly the CIA/FBI were on the scene before most of our own police force - how did they get there so quickly? A channel 4 camera man also said he saw what looked like missile tubes hidden under tarp at a site near the crash!
In this instance, i think it unlikely that the CIA blew up their own people at the expense of a plane of innocent people, but that they tried to cover up the fact that there were CIA on the plane, and that there were terrorists with surface to air missiles on the UK mainland.
For the others:
The Pentagon was his by a missile, not a plane. Even in the CCTV footage released of the incident (which oddly there is very little of), doesn't seem to to show an aeroplane!
Man has walked on the moon - just perhaps not in 1969.
The Titanic IS at the bottom of the ocean.
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