THe survival experts know nowt:)
- Thread starter Andy BB
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What about people with hypohidrosis or anhidrosis - they hardly sweat at all, fit or not... or what about drunk hypothermic fat people... or many other very niche groups that fall outside the scope of the discussion? hmmm....
Thats a daft statement really, lot of sports people are diabetic.
Food for thought:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sportspeople_with_diabetes
Thanks for the link Rik. I was thinking about Type 2 though; Type 1 is genetic.
As a Type 2, when I still had to do PT, I kept (or rather the PT kept) my sugars better controlled. Loss of said fitness contributes to higher sugars.
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Fair enough. The point of my question remains; I'm curious as to why fit people would sweat more easily than unfit people (diabetes was just one example I'm personally familiar with) TBH, it just seems counterintuitive.
I had to look him up. I see he's also Type 2. Yes there are some type 2s who aren't obese. But statistically, obesity's still the leading cause (not the exception)
Normally when T2s lose the weight, the problem goes away; as it did for me. But then I put the weight back on.
Unfortunately most (but not all) drugs used to treat T2 also increase appetite.
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Right - now that everyone has agreed that - unless you "need" to be a lean, mean fighting machine, super-fit with low fat count and lots of muscles, capable of carrying your own weight in mortar shells in both the Arctic and the Tropical jungle - a good layer of blubber is ideal for significant sub-zero (ie -30C and below) campers, time to move onto Part 2.....
Quinzys and snowholes - why they are a bad idea, particularly for the single traveller.
a)- Quinzys. The idea of these is simple. First of all you pile up a great mound of snow, compress it as well as you can, stick twigs through so that - on excavation - you have sufficient thickness to avoid collapse. Excavate a hole inside, build a heat-sink (ie pit in floor) and a shelf off to the side to sleep on. Poke a hole through the ceiling to provide air, and use your rucksack to block off the entrance hole, light a candle, and you'll have a snug shelter. Sounds great, doesn't it!
Trouble is - in practice they take an age to build, and a huge expense of energy - this is not something that one person can knock-up in an hour or two of effort, even assuming he has a decent shovel and plenty of twigs at least two feet long available. Additional risks are build-up of sweat during this exercise, and consequent risk of hypothermia and frost-bite. Sure, you "should" strip off clothing layers when exerting yourself in these conditions, but the chances are you'll never get the timing exactly right, which means damp/wet clothing, and a world of hurt. And of course, exercise in these conditions carries another major threat - often overlooked - of dehydration. Even if you're in a comfortable set up in camp, it is difficult at -20 or below to hydrate sufficiently - you have to force yourself to drink enough.
Secondly, the risk of cave-ins and/or death by suffocation/asphyxiation are considerable. Air-hole getting blocked up, snow sealing gaps around rucksack "door", CO2 "poisoning" from candle fumes and breath exhalation.
Snow-holes have similar risks, whether dug vertically down, or horizontally into a snowbank. Less effort needed perhaps - particularly when digging horizontally into a now-bank, but with a greater risk of collapse. And again, ideally you need a good snow-shovel and/or a "snow-saw". And of course decent insulation from the "snow-bed" you end up lying on.
The third option is to build an igloo. Issues here of course are that it is a skill that most do not have, along with essentials like ice/snow saws. And a faulty-construction igloo is a collapse just waiting to happen. And - again - proper construction takes time as well, along with the risks of sweating and huge calorie consumption.
Now, yes, igloos have been around for thousands of years, and worked well for the Inuit. So did dogsleds, until snow-mobiles became available, or spears until they could get guns to hunt with. Ditto kayaks and boats with outboard motors.
So, why go to all that trouble and risk exposure, when a Jervensbag or similar will provide better protection from the elements, remove the risks of sweating, take a minute to set up, and doesn't need any tools to be carried? Or, for that matter, a lightweight tent? A 4-man Kifaru or Seekoutside tipi weighs around 2kg and has been repeatedly tested in gale-force winds in serious sub-zero conditions. If you're near trees, a ti stove and chimney will only add another kg to the weight, and provide temps up to 70F above ambient conditions, even allowing you to dry wet gear and melt as much snow as needed.
Sure, it can be fun to have a play at building a quinzy or snowhole, or an igloo, and if there's a group of you, they can always pull you out if the thing collapses on you. But as a survival technique in the 21st century? Do you use leeches for a broken leg, or stomach ulcers? Use carrier pigeons to contact your friends and family? Get real folks! Even Uncle Ray uses a Snowtrekker tent and stove in the Boreal forests in winter
Quinzys and snowholes - why they are a bad idea, particularly for the single traveller.
a)- Quinzys. The idea of these is simple. First of all you pile up a great mound of snow, compress it as well as you can, stick twigs through so that - on excavation - you have sufficient thickness to avoid collapse. Excavate a hole inside, build a heat-sink (ie pit in floor) and a shelf off to the side to sleep on. Poke a hole through the ceiling to provide air, and use your rucksack to block off the entrance hole, light a candle, and you'll have a snug shelter. Sounds great, doesn't it!
Trouble is - in practice they take an age to build, and a huge expense of energy - this is not something that one person can knock-up in an hour or two of effort, even assuming he has a decent shovel and plenty of twigs at least two feet long available. Additional risks are build-up of sweat during this exercise, and consequent risk of hypothermia and frost-bite. Sure, you "should" strip off clothing layers when exerting yourself in these conditions, but the chances are you'll never get the timing exactly right, which means damp/wet clothing, and a world of hurt. And of course, exercise in these conditions carries another major threat - often overlooked - of dehydration. Even if you're in a comfortable set up in camp, it is difficult at -20 or below to hydrate sufficiently - you have to force yourself to drink enough.
Secondly, the risk of cave-ins and/or death by suffocation/asphyxiation are considerable. Air-hole getting blocked up, snow sealing gaps around rucksack "door", CO2 "poisoning" from candle fumes and breath exhalation.
Snow-holes have similar risks, whether dug vertically down, or horizontally into a snowbank. Less effort needed perhaps - particularly when digging horizontally into a now-bank, but with a greater risk of collapse. And again, ideally you need a good snow-shovel and/or a "snow-saw". And of course decent insulation from the "snow-bed" you end up lying on.
The third option is to build an igloo. Issues here of course are that it is a skill that most do not have, along with essentials like ice/snow saws. And a faulty-construction igloo is a collapse just waiting to happen. And - again - proper construction takes time as well, along with the risks of sweating and huge calorie consumption.
Now, yes, igloos have been around for thousands of years, and worked well for the Inuit. So did dogsleds, until snow-mobiles became available, or spears until they could get guns to hunt with. Ditto kayaks and boats with outboard motors.
So, why go to all that trouble and risk exposure, when a Jervensbag or similar will provide better protection from the elements, remove the risks of sweating, take a minute to set up, and doesn't need any tools to be carried? Or, for that matter, a lightweight tent? A 4-man Kifaru or Seekoutside tipi weighs around 2kg and has been repeatedly tested in gale-force winds in serious sub-zero conditions. If you're near trees, a ti stove and chimney will only add another kg to the weight, and provide temps up to 70F above ambient conditions, even allowing you to dry wet gear and melt as much snow as needed.
Sure, it can be fun to have a play at building a quinzy or snowhole, or an igloo, and if there's a group of you, they can always pull you out if the thing collapses on you. But as a survival technique in the 21st century? Do you use leeches for a broken leg, or stomach ulcers? Use carrier pigeons to contact your friends and family? Get real folks! Even Uncle Ray uses a Snowtrekker tent and stove in the Boreal forests in winter
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Copied from someones successful ascent notes from K2... it's a fairly fruity mountain and something Uncle Ray isn't good enough to climb.
"when at 8300 meters they made a snow cave for a bivouac without sleeping bags or stove. They reached the summit the next morning at 10:30."
I'll let that sink in for a moment...
Please explain to me the viability of a big tent and stove when trying to summit an 8000m peak
In summary: in certain circumstances you are correct in your assertions, in others you couldn't be more wrong. I would rather have skills that will keep me alive if I end up in a dodgy situation without being able to plan my gear (plane crash etc). If I plan to go into deep snow to spend several nights in the same area, building a good snow shelter isn't a bad investment of time and effort, if it's just over night, i'll take a tent.
"when at 8300 meters they made a snow cave for a bivouac without sleeping bags or stove. They reached the summit the next morning at 10:30."
I'll let that sink in for a moment...
Please explain to me the viability of a big tent and stove when trying to summit an 8000m peak
In summary: in certain circumstances you are correct in your assertions, in others you couldn't be more wrong. I would rather have skills that will keep me alive if I end up in a dodgy situation without being able to plan my gear (plane crash etc). If I plan to go into deep snow to spend several nights in the same area, building a good snow shelter isn't a bad investment of time and effort, if it's just over night, i'll take a tent.
It's all pretty simple guys. Watch some of BG's Man Vs Wild and you'll find all the answers you need about this bushcraft stuff
Ah, Squidders! You're right - K2 at 8300 metres probably wouldn't be the best place to erect a tipi. In the same way that it wouldn't 200 feet under the sea. And if I was going to fly an aircraft at 35,000 feet I'd want some oxygen and preferably a pressurised cabin, at it gets to -60+C at those altitudes
Horses for courses, as it were. So if you accidentally get lost and find yourself at 8,300 metres on K2 without a sleeping bag or a bivi (or oxygen for that matter), then presumably you make do with what you have.
I'm just wondering how many people have suddenly looked around and thought - "Good heavens - I only popped out for a bag of croissants, and here I am in my flip-flops at 8300 metres on K2! Wonder how that happened? If only I'd brought my Jervens bag..........."
Horses for courses, as it were. So if you accidentally get lost and find yourself at 8,300 metres on K2 without a sleeping bag or a bivi (or oxygen for that matter), then presumably you make do with what you have.
I'm just wondering how many people have suddenly looked around and thought - "Good heavens - I only popped out for a bag of croissants, and here I am in my flip-flops at 8300 metres on K2! Wonder how that happened? If only I'd brought my Jervens bag..........."
These skills have an evolution though... they can be adapted... it's dead simple to dig a foot hole, build a little snow bank and sit very comfortably out of the wind to make a cuppa.
I'm ALL for kit... really - I bloody love kit! But I don't see the point of not just ignoring skills but discounting them completely because you have something in the shed that works until it breaks, catches fire or gets stollen or traded for beer.
I'm ALL for kit... really - I bloody love kit! But I don't see the point of not just ignoring skills but discounting them completely because you have something in the shed that works until it breaks, catches fire or gets stollen or traded for beer.
It's all pretty simple guys. Watch some of BG's Man Vs Wild and you'll find all the answers you need about this bushcraft stuff
It'll be a cold day in hell before I learn anything from the idiot son of a corrupt politician.
As for Quinzhees, it does help if you find a pile of snow left by a bulldozer.
It'll be a cold day in hell before I learn anything from the idiot son of a corrupt politician.
As for Quinzhees, it does help if you find a pile of snow left by a bulldozer.
I remember that article, Wayland - lovely bit of work, and an iconic photo!
To be honest though, I've never seen bulldozers 8300 metres up K2
Snow holes et al are a good survival tool but I'd not fancy either as shelter of choice. My little old Hex 3 tent weighs less than a bag of sugar and will sleep two in comfort (3 if you hang it instead of using the centre pole) so I'll stick to a tent of some sort.
It'll be a cold day in hell before I learn anything from the idiot son of a corrupt politician.
As for Quinzhees, it does help if you find a pile of snow left by a bulldozer.
Funny that, hasn't it been in the news lately that a town called Hell in the states has actually frozen over with all this cold weather they're having? Looks like the BG school of Survival is open for class mate
Only Joking btw
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